6.04: Frozen

Shadrak

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Hey Bummer (Bum for short?) :rolly2:

Thanks for the synopsis - the only one from start to finish I've seen on the web so far - clear as a bell for me now! :) It's funny though. I'm in the UK, heavily dependant on my US cousins to transmit their feelings/spoilers about S6. I sit with baited breath after reading all the little spoilers and yet the first 4 eps haven't been that well recieved (according to everyone's opinions) and I'm truly worrying about the prospect of a film now.

I was soooo looking forward to Abyss - like I've got it all mapped out in my head how it'll go and I'm looking forward to some Jack/Daniel banter etc, and I'm wondering if it's gonna be a five minute pitstop for tea and bickies before Danny glows off somewhere else.....:rolleyes:

Shadrak
 

Hatshepsut

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Thanks for your help, Falcon Horus. :)

I had forgotten that Jolinar left Sam though, if I remember correctly, the assassin would have killed Jolinar anyway, so Jolinar just avoided taking Sam with her/it.

As regards Tok'ra not being goa'uld, isn't/wasn't Jack's attitude that 'a snake's a snake'?

It still seems to be pushing the bounds of credibility a step too far for Jack to be blended rather than die free. Still, the scriptwriters made him accept Quinn into S.G. -1, totally against both canon and common sense, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by anything they do. :rolleyes:

Thanks again anyway. You make more sense than they do. :D

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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bummer

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Hatshepsut...

I agree with you on the whole Jack agreeing to a snake thing; but his first reaction was exactly what you'd expect; "over my dead body."

To me, and I'm sure some shippers will disagree with me; to me he agreed to it because Sam reiterated that the Tok'ra felt the symbiote had "vital" information. Now, I can see Jack agreeing to something totally against every grain of his being for Earth's cause.....but I have a little trouble with him agreeing to it for the Tok'ra....but that's the way I read I read that scene...

Shadrak, I'm glad my synopsis wasn't too confusing. I waited hoping somebody else would take it in hand, but decided to step up to the plate when nobody else did. At least it gave you a little to go on! :D
 

CynVision

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Re: Re: what I find most interesting...

Originally posted by Hatshepsut
1. How do the Tok'ra know this particular goa'uld has any information? 2. If they do know it has information, how do they know, without hearing it, whether it is of any value - or not? 3. If it was previously in a host who died, why didn't it bust a gusset to pass on the information before the host died?
They're hoping there is info. The Tok'ra have never been up front with their motives. Jack has a gut-level feeling for them. He's never wanted to trust them as far as he could throw them. The host died and they're hoping there is info. Isn't it odd that Jacob didn't come? They sent the new Tok'ra guy to lie with a straight face.

Questions 4 and 5: Yah, Jolinar seemed eager to save Sam from joining her in death. But only with extreme consequences looming did she do so. I'm sure Jack is going into this with a healthy dose of doubt that they'd successfully find a host for the Tok'ra to move on to. Again, the Tok'ra must be more desperate for hosts than they seem. For them to come begging for a dead man hints that they find Jacob's information on Earth quite useful and the possibility of them having the leader of the SGC vanguard team as a potential host too good to pass up.
6. Having seen what happened to Hebron after Tanith was blended with him, why on Earth - or any other planet! - should Jack risk the living death that Hebron, Skaara, Sha're et al. endured? I mean, if you're afraid of actual physical death, you wouldn't join the military in the first place - would you?
Jack's not afraid of death. No. But somehow his patriotism kicked in. The idea of doing something heroic rather than be taken down by some variant of encephalitis must have crossed his mind. Jack's going down as a hero, even if they take his free will from him and make him a Tok'ra operative.
 

bummer

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having the leader of the SGC vanguard team as a potential host too good to pass up.

I thought about that too....they'd have one of Earth's greatest heroes as their puppet....or have that potential.....ICK!

Wonder how this will affect him at the SGC....I mean, everyone would have to look at him with a little suspicion when he came back....if he came back....
 

WingedThing

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Frozen

I thought that the episode, while a nice set-up for Jack's blending, was a waste of time...at least once we found out that Aiyana couldn't talk. Why, in the last season, do we need a character introduced who does, well, nothing and means nothing?

I've liked the first three episodes and don't mind Jonas at all, but this episode was boring. I kept wondering what "inspired" it.

As for the poster who thought that the episode was borrowed from the X-files "Ice" episode, you should know that "Ice" borrowed heavily (of not totally with a reference) from John W. Campbell Jr.'s "Who Goes There?"

As for ship...I think there was a teeeny bit on Sam's part. I am an anti-shipper, so maybe I was imagining things. Please tell me I was.
 

Falcon Horus

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Glad I could be of some help, Hatshepsut! Your welcome! :)

I'm going to say this over and over again but I think that "Frozen" had more potential if they hadn't let Aiyana die. It didn't bother that she didn't say much, I liked that. Actually she said much more than you guys think. Her face was a book of emotions. Expressing your feelings is a lot more difficult than just tell what you feel. I think that the actress playing Aiyana did a good job.

And I think they're was some shipping between Jonas and Aiyana. Not in so many words but he liked her.

Falcon Horus ;)
 

tatter

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well..outside of the abundent and seemingly overwhelming negativity here... I love the show!!!!!

i've always been more of a history/archaeology buff so i thought this was great..
the show wasn't just a set up for jacks blending but an intro to the concept for the movie and the new series after stargate atlantis.
i don't know if anyone touched on this but one of the conversations between janet and sam was about how aiyana was more evolved then we were but is essentially human using more of her brain explaining her healing power and cryogenic state when they found her but sams points out that you don't evolve down and that if we are aiyana's decendents our evolvutionary process has been controlled and done before.
i thought it was a cool set up for future shows.

now as a confirmed shipper....i'm sure i'm totally projecting here and was somewhat disappointed that the last scene wasn't shippier but sam did have a very attentive audience though if he were gonna croak why would she care... but jack did not agree to be blended until sam pleaded with him..."sir, please" and her facial expression communicated to jack not to just die. so....i took it as he did it mostly for her though the info thing was an excuse she could use.

i know this is long but one more thing....this is the first time they revived the jack/sam music in the background since divide and conquer so that means it should be taken as a shippy moment.:D :rolleyes:
 

tatter

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originally posted by spooky:
spooky's spoiler quote about the next epi


well from what i've read on the other threads about this epi is
sam is only pretending to be a goauld in the next epi in order to inflitrate a town of goauld people who are taken host by imature larval goauld and only become goauld at night when the humans are sleeping hense the name nightwalkers, rda wanted some time off in rl so he's not in the epi at all, and in the abyss jack's tokra sacrifices himself while jack is being killed over and over again and revived by a sarcphogus and get a visit or halucination by danny.
 

CynVision

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Originally posted by tatter
sams points out that you don't evolve down and that if we are aiyana's decendents our evolvutionary process has been controlled and done before.
i thought it was a cool set up for future shows.
I have to listen again to that part, but this is very strange that
1. the Asgard have not revealed what they should have known about the Ancients. They called us a new race in Fifth Race, we're they lying? And
2. Humankind, after being sent down to the basic roots of the Ancient evolution, has bootstrapped itself back up to the level it's at.
3. the Asgard haven't done more protecting of humankind since they would have known what we were and knew the Goa'uld was plundring humans off the Ancient's old worlds for hosts.

After all, there's Asgard treaties out there with the Goa'uld that humans are only suitable as host creatures [Fair Game] and not to be allowed to become a threat. I think the Goa'uld know what humans are, too. And they're doing all sorts of experiments on them to increase the potentials of the Ancients that they desire. Remember Niriti and Cassandra? And Brief Candle. They've been doing experiments for a very long time.

I'm feeling there's too many confilicts with what we've been told for six years for this woman to be the old version of the Ancients. Too many questions on why she was left behind to be overrun by the ice along with the 'Gate. The ancients wouldn't do all this de-evolving without a reason. They've rumored to have moved on. So far out of touch with the Asgard that they don't care what's being done with their legacy?
but jack did not agree to be blended until sam pleaded with him..."sir, please" and her facial expression communicated to jack not to just die. so....i took it as he did it mostly for her though the info thing was an excuse she could use.
Ewww. Ick. He's doing it because Sam would miss him?! That won't wash with me. But okay. Maybe that has a part in his decision.

i know this is long but one more thing....this is the first time they revived the jack/sam music in the background since divide and conquer so that means it should be taken as a shippy moment.:D :rolleyes:
Hmmmm. This subtlity seems too smart for the production folks.
 

Bizarro7

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History? Archeology?

Er...what history or archeology? We saw no artifacts, and only a bit of dialogue speculating about the possible history of the 3,000,000 year old woman.

If this is the intro for a spin-off series, it's rather derivative. I didn't find myself particularly curious to know more about this woman's culture or past.

Frankly, if you need a musical cue to know when you're looking at 'ship', someone isn't doing their direction or scripting job right.

Leah
 

Highlander II

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Can't say I was particularly thrilled with this episode.


The idea of a woman (or person) frozen in ice and still alive is intriguing, but the fact that she's also a carrier for some weird virus that only she can cure, that's kinda cliche and just a bit - strange.

And, IMO, there was 'too much' Jonas. He was doing stuff that any of the others could have done. I mean, Jack could sit and talk to someone w/o getting frustrated - it seemed to be a lot of 'gee, we need ppl to know more about Jonas, so he can sit and talk to himself'

less Jonas - more of the rest of the gang --

I don't hate Jonas, but please don't stick him in my face ---
the other eps of the season were better --
 

skydiver

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lessee....all sorts of little things

ship:
well it depends on how much you project.

Sam has her sweet little tank top on again
jonas gives ayila red jello on her tray (yeah, really stretching here) and the end...IMHO, Sam's 'sir, please' is a very definite 'i'm asking you to do this because i know you'll do it for me'
Now, is he doing it because he doenst want to hurt her by dying, or because she feels the tokra intelligence is vital enough to do it.

She was the one to be the most vocal in 'he needs to decide'.



in watching this i had a funny revelation.

ok, aylia's brain waves were exactly like cassie's in RoP, and Jack's in fifth race. They THINK aylia was an ancient. this is supported by jack's brain waves.
Now how does this tie in with cassie?
Nirti was trying to make hok'tar...advanced humans.what if what she calls hok'tar are really ancients?

what if...the ancients plucked the goa'uld up from thier primordial swamp and domesticated them for lack of a better term. let's say you were a farmer...smart cows could come in handy. or they could have been just plain bored and enslaved the goauld.

eventually the ancients got bored and left the galaxy, not cleaning up thier experiment behind them.

the goauld were left to run amuk and thanks to genetic memory they were able to learn a lot. and thanks to generations of experiments/enslavement they're not happy campers. they're bound and determined not to be slaves again so....how better to avoid that fate than to keep everyone who could possibly enslave them at such a level of tech that they're not a threat.

They also try to emulate their former masters. the healing device...mimics aylia's healing ability.

season 6 is going to come to a head when the ancients come back into our galaxy to clean up thier mess.
 

Hatshepsut

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I will say first of all that I haven't seen any of series 6, just read a variety of accounts of it, but I have seen everything that went before it.

That said, in my opinion, Skydiver, your take on series 6 is a whole lot more intelligent and thoughtful than anything T.P.T.B. are likely to turn out. It's a pity you aren't on their writing team, along with a few others who seem far more clued in than those who are actually getting paid for the job...

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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CynVision

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Originally posted by skydiver
ok, aylia's brain waves were exactly like cassie's in RoP, and Jack's in fifth race.
I don't remember them talking brain waves in Fifth Race. I remember brain scans showing unused areas of the brain being overrun. Did this brain wave thing come up in the second Cassie ep, because I haven't seen that yet and all that including Jack in the group with advanced humans was laughable. It's a whole lot like the way the show explained away in Legacy Jack not having Goa'uld protien marker from his implantation with the cryogenic freezing. It's rewriting show cannon for the story to take a new direction. And that stinks.
 

skydiver

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i haven't watched 5th race in a while but just because we didnt' see janet run a ekg, doesn't mean she didn't take one.
i don't know, i need to go back and watch

as to the protein marker, you only get that if the snake dies within you...jack's didn't, jols did.
way back in into the fire, sam goes, 'i don't sense its presence'
it never fully blended with him
 

WingedThing

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If it's a setup for the new series:

Then it is a wee bit early in Season 6 for the set-up. And the bit about acting is harder without words...well, writing it is a lot easier.

Direction: Look confused
Direction: Look understanding
Direction: Look frightened

I still think the episode was lazy. Yes, it had a lot of Jonas, but if you think about it, Jonas was filling the Daniel spot on the team, and all those scenes would have been appropriate for Daniel.

Ah well, time to move on and hope for better things.
 

CynVision

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Originally posted by skydiver
as to the protein marker, you only get that if the snake dies within you...jack's didn't, jols did.
way back in into the fire, sam goes, 'i don't sense its presence'
it never fully blended with him
It's my big beef with Into the Fire that we didn't see it leave him and die. We saw Kolwaski's die. I'm having a lot of trouble with us not seeing it happen. Or us not at least seeing its remains. We were told it left him in Legacy and we never saw it happen. As far as I know we don't have Sam being sensitive for ex-hosts. So it died and she wouldn't sense it in him. For six months I was humming along with the idea that it dies in him but it had never took him over. Then they have a whole squirly bit in Legacy where they yack up that it left him and we never saw it. I think my brain is being a bit simplistic, but I felt a bit betrayed by the show for not making it clearer back when it happened. Now I'm hyper-sensitive when I suspect that I see them doing the same thing all over again. That's just how I feel about it.
 

CynVision

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Re: If it's a setup for the new series:

Originally posted by WingedThing
I still think the episode was lazy. ...
Ah well, time to move on and hope for better things.
I do think that episodes like this have a place in a series, at least it's number 4 of 22 and they can mess around with the ideas they've shoved at us so rapidly in the hour for most of the coming season. I'd have been really peeved if they made it number #18. I see Frozen as the cool-down episode, a easy-to-do breather episode that often creeps into a series shortly after the season premiere. It's got minimal CGI demands (so the effects crew can have a break) and this seeming break in the action ultimately sets up the episodes for the rest of the season, so you're doomed to watch it over and over trying to glean out the best bits. :rolleyes: I just wish they wouldn't try rewriting the foundation of the series in one episode, in two speculative conversations.
 

Hatshepsut

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Actually, I think episode 4 is quite a bad time to put in a cr*p episode. They did that with 'Enterprise'. I never watched it again. :dead:

I mean, we'd had a good beginning and then it just seemed like they'd shot their bolt and it was going to be downhill all the way thereafter. I wasn't prepared to waste any more of my time on the off-chance that it might improve. Life's too short. :(

Best wishes,
Hatshepsut :wave:
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