DIssecting Bran of House Stark (ADWD Spoilers)

[Mesanna]

Did she have any other children? I think she's a pretty far-fetched option. What other options are there for jilted women?

Can I ask why we are assuming this woman was jilted? (I've probably missed something). Could it not be that the woman's husband was perhaps killed, whether in battle or by some king or lord, and that's why she wants vengeance. Of course, I've still no idea who she might be.

 

[The Imp]

Can I ask why we are assuming this woman was jilted? (I've probably missed something). Could it not be that the woman's husband was perhaps killed, whether in battle or by some king or lord, and that's why she wants vengeance. Of course, I've still no idea who she might be.

I agree. This wasnt, but could have been someone like a Cat, who would have wanted vengnece for her Ned and Robb (had she survived, of course)

 

[Rufio]

Poor Bran, first crippled and now dissected.

I gave the chapter a re-read for this (a good excuse), I agree that the Bran chapters were some of my favourites in ADWD - I kept expecting at least one more though and was disappointed it never happened.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”

This can only refer to Jon and Robb... but does it confirm they're not brothers? It's not beyond possible that Ned could say this if Jon was his, bastards are not always going to be accepted by their family? I believe they're cousins but this still isn't 100% confirmation they're not brothers.

something tells me that it was not Brandon or Ned playing with Lyanna. Benjen's name always bugging me.

I agree - the implication is that the boy is younger than the girl, Brandon is the oldest and Ned's older than Lyanna too, Benjen I think is the youngest. So therefore Lyanna and Benjen seem the most likely two.

What to read into this scene though? The thing that I thought, was that it shows a closeness between the pair and implies secrets shared, 'do you want father to find out'. There's a theory within the theory of R+L=J that Benjen had some knowledge or played some part in the relationship and elopement of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and that's why he joins the Night's Watch after the war (which he seemingly didn't take much part in). Maybe this scene supports that. Maybe that is a bit of a stretch but GRRM puts things in for a reason especially in these dreams and visions, and I haven't come up with anything else for this scene. I have read one totally crackpot (imo) theory that Benjen could be Jon's father with Lyanna, maybe you could use this to support that if you were so inclined!

The pregnant woman - all I can say is that it can't be too far in the past as the visions seemed to go back through time, and the next after her appeared to show Duncan The Tall from the Dunk and Egg prequels, about a hundred years before ASOIAF. Also, it seems to me all the visions could be of Starks - so maybe Bran's grandmother, or greatgrandmother? I don't know what she wants avenging though.

The last thing he sees is a sacrifice and I got the impression this was in the distant distant past. He's killed with a bronze scythe, which indicates a long time ago, or ritual sacrifice, or both. Earlier in the chapter Jojen tells Bran that the secrets of the Old Gods are forgotten in Winterfell but they are remembered by the Crannogmen. I guess we'll learn a lot more about these and they'll probably be coming more into conflict with the Red God. Some of you have already commented on the light/dark issue, and how it's not going to be a simple good/evil dichotomy, as this is ASOIAF, and we've seen that the 'Lord Of Light''s servants are far from fluffy. We'll see the same is true of the Old Gods though, what I wonder is whether there will be any connection in this to The Others?

I came across the "Jon dream" at the end of aCoK. Very interesting.

It certainly is very interesting. One thing I take away from it is that Bran won't be leaving where he is now, I know a lot of people have assumed this anyway and said he's just going to a tree like the three eyed crow but from my first reading in ADWD it seemed possible he'd leave, that the TEC only took on this form when his mortal body was running out on him anyway. I know Bran can't walk but he's not dead yet, I thought. He'll still be living, and of course he still has apart to play in the story, but still a bit of a sad end for Bran if that is the case. I also wonder what it means for Meera, Jojen, and Hodor - presumably they can't or won't spend the rest of the winter or their lives in the cave with Bran. Though Jojen may do the latter... he's always said about knowing the day he dies, and there are plenty of hints dropped in this chapter that it's not far away. Maybe Hodor (via Bran) and Meera will be our way in to the elusive Greywater Watch and Howland Reed? Not sure how they'd get away from the cave though.


I love the Children Of The Forest (or rather those who sing the songs of the earth). There is a very strong element of Tolkein's elves in them - singing sad songs for their race as the world of men edges them out of existence.

 

[Eversummer]

Poor Bran, first crippled and now dissected.




The last thing he sees is a sacrifice and I got the impression this was in the distant distant past. He's killed with a bronze scythe, which indicates a long time ago, or ritual sacrifice, or both. Earlier in the chapter Jojen tells Bran that the secrets of the Old Gods are forgotten in Winterfell but they are remembered by the Crannogmen.

It must have happened several years ago, the age of First Men. Its them who brought bronze....I seemed to have read it somewhere. The First Men spoke the Old Tongue which the wildlings speak and the giants too. There must have been something about the bloody ritual that must be important in the latter part of the story.

I am also very concerned about Catelyn...Though she loathed poor Jon, I have a gut feeling that somehow in the end, she will come to thank Jon and even give her "breath". I'm always proactive with Jon dying--not that I wanted him to die but given George's rep....

<s i g h>

 

[Keebs411]

poss nan?!?!
She is the oldest person at winterfell. She came to winterfell to nurse a one brandon stark which one is unsure, only that his mother had died birthing him. This Brandon Stark believed to be either the brother of Lord rickard stark or a brother of his father. She lost both of her sons during the big robbers rebellion, her grandson during the greyjoys rebelion too and her daughters had moved away and died. Her only living relative is hurdo.she lost alot of kids herslef supportin staarts and the nort, how ever on branadon killed his mother (cant be neds mother being she had him lyanna and ben)

i find the woman with child by the dark pool facinating as well who would be ned starks mother.... but the time lines of all her kids makes no sense, none of their lives are in danger @ the time shed be carrying one and feeling she neede to evenge one already unless if it is neds mom and the baby in the stomach bran sees does notmake it.
but the flint history attaching to danny flint is interesting.She was raped and murdered at the Nightfort. She is remembered for being brave and young. Mance Raydar sings a song about her. In some versions of the song her ghost still walks the Nightfort. I see further connections between the flits and starks and mance for sure


the last i can think of is gilly or mance mate both woman carrying into dangerous places (but safer from their previous) while carrying praying to the tree god to aveng their sons both knowing danger would be around when they birthed.

please excue my sloppy post my ambien sleep med is kicking in morphing my laptop keys and screen. but in my mind if we could find out more about who neds mother and grandmother were, where did nan come from, or else possibly this danny flint girl somhow, gilly or mances mate when they gave birth or were carrying. these are the only ladyes in the now, or past i can think of.....

unless we assume its the past and its the future? again sorry this couldall be insane need some mini self down translations but i cant see straight now more and wante dto implant this thought before i disapeared

 

[The Imp]

It must have happened several years ago, the age of First Men. Its them who brought bronze....I seemed to have read it somewhere. The First Men spoke the Old Tongue which the wildlings speak and the giants too. There must have been something about the bloody ritual that must be important in the latter part of the story.

I am also very concerned about Catelyn...Though she loathed poor Jon, I have a gut feeling that somehow in the end, she will come to thank Jon and even give her "breath". I'm always proactive with Jon dying--not that I wanted him to die but given George's rep....

<s i g h>

GRRM never kills anyone off in a cliffhanger

 

[Tywin]

Is there any chance that the pregnant woman was Lyanna when pregnant with Jon?

 

[The Imp]

Is there any chance that the pregnant woman was Lyanna when pregnant with Jon?

I think if it was Lyanna the series of images, which seemed to be going back in time, would have started with her.

 

[MIDNIGHT]

I have often wondered that as well Tywin, but getting from Winterfell to the Tower of Joy while that pregnant , seems slim. Yet it still nags at me...

 

[Tywin]

Okay, I did a search of the wiki of ice and fire with "revenge" and "stark" in the search line and it brought me almost immediately to the story of Bael the Bard with this info:

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night's Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found neither Bael nor the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her hand an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael's ******* with the daughter of the Lord Stark became the new Lord Stark.

When years later Bael became King-Beyond-the-Wall and lead the wildling's army south, he had to fight his own son at the Frozen Ford. There, incapable of killing his own blood, he let himself be killed by Lord Stark. His son brought back Bael's head to Winterfell, and his mother who had loved the bard, seeing the trophy, killed herself from the top of a tower.

That's not a direct quote from the text, just paraphrasing, but that story would fit for the pregnant woman right up until the end.

 

[The Imp]

Okay, I did a search of the wiki of ice and fire with "revenge" and "stark" in the search line and it brought me almost immediately to the story of Bael the Bard with this info:



That's not a direct quote from the text, just paraphrasing, but that story would fit for the pregnant woman right up until the end.

Well done Tywin

 

[Rufio]

I'd heard that before but dismissed it because she returned to Winterfell with a baby, not pregnant. But I forgot that they never left Winterfell (which of course is the key part of the story, relating to Bran and Rickon, oops). But if she loved the bard, no need for revenge. If she didn't, what's he doing letting her wander around the place?

 

[Tywin]

The revenge part is the strange part, especially if she killed herself in grief after her son brought back his head.

 

[Young stormlord]

I have a theory about weirwoods...

Let's say that they are like books to Children of the forest, only they store memories of dead people, not words. They sort of live through weirwood. Is it too much of a stretch to think that not every weirwood stores memories? That there are empty books waiting to be written? In that case, the memories have to start somewhere.

When greenseer dies, he goes into the weirwood and that tree now has his personality, it can watch and remember. So, my take on this

Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand.
“No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man’s feet drummed against the earth … but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

is: the man was greenseer. Winterfell's weirwood was nothing special until his death; afterwards it could see and remember. Notice that in all the previous visions, Bran was always the weirwood. In the last one, he was the man being executed. And there is also this, which I posted in Not so important connections thread:

ASOS, one of Samwell chapters (before the death of Old Bear):

Sam stumbled. “Jon found more, on the Fist. Hundreds of arrowheads, spearheads as well . . .”
“So you said. Small good it does us there. To reach the Fist again we’d need to be armed with the weapons we won’t have until we reach the bloody Fist. And there are still the wildlings to deal with. We need to find dragonglass someplace else.”
Sam had almost forgotten about the wildlings, so much had happened since. “The children of the forest used dragonglass blades,” he said. “They’d know where to find obsidian.”
“The children of the forest are all dead,” said Mormont. “The First Men killed half of them with bronze blades, and the Andals finished the job with iron. Why a glass dagger should—”
The Old Bear broke off as Craster emerged from between the deerhide flaps of his door. The wildling smiled, revealing a mouth of brown rotten teeth. “I have a son.”

 

[Katrina Stark]

Notice that in all the previous visions, Bran was always the weirwood. In the last one, he was the man being executed.

I'm not sure I agree with your take on this - I think Bran was in the tree like for the other visions, after all, he was seeing the man's feet, and he tasted the blood when it touched the ground and (probably) the tree's roots.

Of course, that does not invalidate your theory about dead greenseers inhabiting weirwoods.

 

[Silvise]

The question, then, is what is Brandons roll as a tree in the overall story?

He can be a source of information, kinda like a Westerosi internet, but how will he communicate it to anyone who matters?

Maybe he could use trees to warg animals across long distances?

Maybe he develops a portable tree interface so he does not have to tie into a permanent location like the current dude?

You know, Brandon, having overcome so much, has to be an important player, so playing out his story could be interesting.

At one point Bran manages to communicate with Jon through a weirwood, though I think Jon thinks it's a dream.

 

[Keebs411]

Its seems we have all been thinking that bran is just seeing people of the past that were only atarka or in winterfell. How ever what if the 3 eye crow ( who i also beleive is bloodraven) is sharing his own memories and historys? There is still so much back stpry about blood raven and his family. Even thought they whorahip the 7 in the south they still have gods woods all over. Blood raven was more then fwindly w his ******* half sister shiera seastar. Did they possible create a child we dont know about? There is so much back story we have yet to learn about him. But i think the visions bran had are not juat of hia blood line and winterfell i think blood ravens putting in some of his own

 

[Ursa major]

That's a good point. Bran has been brought to that place for a purpose; what is happening to him, and what he sees, could be part of the process by which he's induced to work towards that purpose.

Being so young (in the books), Bran is probably a perfect candidate for brainwashing: he's probably still at the age when he can be persuaded to see things in black and white terms.

 

[Needle]

As you all know I have long been rambling about my distrust of all things Rhallor and my sense that the Old Gods and the Others are connected. Plus we are pretty sure now that Bran is about to become one of these Old Gods and I will not believe Bran is or will become evil. So, I came across this in Mel's first POV:

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

Your thoughts on the meaning of this?

 

[Keebs411]

As you all know I have long been rambling about my distrust of all things Rhallor and my sense that the Old Gods and the Others are connected. Plus we are pretty sure now that Bran is about to become one of these Old Gods and I will not believe Bran is or will become evil. So, I came across this in Mel's first POV:



Your thoughts on the meaning of this?

Im with you Needle. Im also weary of rhallor and his followers. Just somthinng nagging in my gut that says dont let down all my defences on that one. However i havent fully gone against it. As u stated you think the old gods are connected to the others. Do u mean on the same side?? If so my only hesitation comes from when they mention that its believed that the children of the forrest worked with the the first men to make the wall and fight the others last time( but we all know the truth can be twisted and changed creating a diff story) But maybe the children of the forest are Sweden, nutral. They dont take sides except that time because they thought it was in the best choice? Only for men to turn against them after driving them into hidding. Now perhaps their opionon and stance has changed? Man has buthered the land and the trees. Plus fire burns wood and trees i cant see the children of the forest being a fan of a god of fire.

I think the red eyes mel sees is blood raven whos the current attachment to the tree network and she sees bran behind him the person to come? Seeing him Howl places the wolf attachment and she doent realize the connection to the starks because she doesnt know the back story and about them all having a dire wolf?? Plus every one thinks bran and rickon are dead so why would she think its jons brother??

And also i agree i dont think bran is evil or will become so. i do think that he is at an age and possition to have people who want to manipulate or brain wash him but in the end i think he will do all he can to help guide and save his siblings.