Is there any good references to finding more mythology on Polynesian and Inuit deities, warriors, etc?

[SavageBlade900]

two of my protagonists will be half siblings and one is half Polynesian and the other one is half Inuit, one from a Polynesian mother and the other one from an Inuit mother. Are there any beautiful female goddesses, warriors based on both cultures that are at least very unique? The ones i keep finding are not very interesting. Are these deities not very popular in stories, literature or any forms of media for any reasons?

 

[tinkerdan]

You might look into the role of the Trickster.
A lot of myth have Tricksters and though I have found them in Polynesian and Native American, I haven't specifically found them among the Inuit.

I have nothing to indicate Tricksters can be female; however also nothing to say they can't and there are native american's who seem to have a culture that allowed for the easy reversal of gender roles.

Nuliajuk - Wikipedia
The Inuit--Nuliajuk is interesting--maybe you could embellish.

You could also research various spirits that they worship or at least that fall within their culture.
I did that when I was trying to find Czech myth and ended up with something more in the Slavic Spirits.
Not sure if that would pass with my late father and granddad, but I'll never know now.

THE TOP 12 DEITIES FROM INUIT MYTHOLOGY
INUIT MYTH

Sometimes the focus is in fertility, animal husbandry, and the origins of life. Not always the most striking spirits and goddesses.

 

[SavageBlade900]

Thanks! This helps a lot. Sorry for the late response.

I just have one more thing to ask if you or anyone else can give good advice on.

Where are some good mysterious church dungeons that could exist today that I can research about? It would be a place where one of my protagonists escapes from in my story.

Thank you again.

 

[The Judge]

Churches don't have dungeons, which are associated with castles -- the word is a variant of donjon, the great tower or keep of a castle which had underground storage areas. The word later came to be applied to cells and prison-like areas under the keep. Warwick Castle has particularly fine dungeons, I believe.

Larger churches often do have underground areas, but these are known as crypts, which were often used as chapels or places for burial. Many English cathedrals have crypt areas, some of which are open to visitors. One which I know is Winchester, which can only be visited as part of a special tour -- the water table is very low there and it's often flooded in winter. Here's a copy of an image of the most often viewed part of it, which can be seen from some steps which are accessible from the cathedral -- the vaulting is very typical and is repeated throughout:

What isn't immediately clear is that the crypt actually extends a long way to the right of this. I've only been down there once, but from memory I think there were some air/light shafts linking to the outside, coming out at ground level. It's possible that in the past they could have been used for someone to escape into or out of, but it would have been something of a scrabble, but nowadays they're blocked, so if you're setting your story now or in the near future, this would be a problem.

A crypt might also be known as an undercroft, as at Durham Cathedral. Here's how it looked in 1893 Crypt Durham Cathedral but again it's difficult for you to use it as a place to escape today, because it's now a restaurant/cafe.

It's often the case that the crypts/undercrofts have been repurposed as cafes, shops or exhibition areas because of the need to attract tourists and increase revenue. It's possible that somewhere in England there's a large crypt which is unused, but it's less likely to be mysterious than simply very damp and cobwebby. I've no idea what the position would be abroad, though.

 

[Joshua Jones]

@The Judge is absolutely right; churches simply don't have dungeons, as prisoners were never kept at a church. Crypts and storage areas, sure, but not dungeons. Somewhat related is that church also didn't torture, burn, or otherwise execute heretics; the state did that, as heresy was considered a crime against society. The church simply identified heretics for the state and sought their repentance. Because of this, there was no real reason for the church to house prisoners in any context or for any capacity, hence no dungeon.

 

[The Judge]

Hmm. Without wishing to start an argument, and even less wish to offend anyone, I always think the line that the church didn't harm heretics is somewhat like a gangland boss claiming he didn't murder a person simply because someone else pulled the trigger. When church and state work hand-in-glove to eliminate threats to their existence, one side can't escape blame by acting like a maiden aunt when actual blood is shed.

I'd also be less dogmatic in saying crypts were never used to house prisoners, though off the top of my head I can't think of any actual example (though bells are ringing a little over Durham and Avignon). At times of civil strife or foreign raids, when a secure place was needed to house a number of men, a stone-built church -- and particularly a windowless crypt -- might well have been pressed into temporary service in the absence of anything better. But that would have been the exception, not the rule, and a matter of necessity, not design.

 

[Joshua Jones]

Hmm. Without wishing to start an argument, and even less wish to offend anyone, I always think the line that the church didn't harm heretics is somewhat like a gangland boss claiming he didn't murder a person simply because someone else pulled the trigger. When church and state work hand-in-glove to eliminate threats to their existence, one side can't escape blame by acting like a maiden aunt when actual blood is shed.

I'd also be less dogmatic in saying crypts were never used to house prisoners, though off the top of my head I can't think of any actual example (though bells are ringing a little over Durham and Avignon). At times of civil strife or foreign raids, when a secure place was needed to house a number of men, a stone-built church -- and particularly a windowless crypt -- might well have been pressed into temporary service in the absence of anything better. But that would have been the exception, not the rule, and a matter of necessity, not design.

No need to worry about offending me; we are trying to say the same thing in the second paragraph. My statement was intended to convey normative usage and my being unaware of any historical situation where a church was actually used in this context. The point I was trying to make is that churches simply weren't outfitted for such a task, because their was no expectation that they would be used thus. More often, they would be used by people fleeing justice to claim sanctuary, but that is another discussion altogether... but, you are absolutely right that I overstated my case above. Thank you for the opportunity to clarify.

On the first paragraph, I also think I wasn't particularly clear. I was trying to address the perception that the church directly prosecuted heretics, which may be behind the perception that churches had dungeons. The degree to which the church was complicit with the state, and whether an apology (in the classical sense or the modern sense) for the church's actions can be made is surely another matter altogether. I don't think anyone could successfully argue that the church didn't harm those it identified as heretics; my intended point was the manner in which it harmed them directly wasn't with dungeons and immolation, but in using too broad a definition of heresy and identifying them to entities who would use dungeons and immolation.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to clarify!

 

[The Big Peat]

I got curious about this and tried googling to find examples of churches being used as prisons. Nothing really popped up (unless you count Scientology) but I did find this wikipedia article - Ecclesiastical prison - Wikipedia

This being the full source it draws from - Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Ecclesiastical Prisons - Wikisource, the free online library

It appears there is some history of people being kept prisoner in monasteries at least.

 

[Joshua Jones]

I got curious about this and tried googling to find examples of churches being used as prisons. Nothing really popped up (unless you count Scientology) but I did find this wikipedia article - Ecclesiastical prison - Wikipedia

This being the full source it draws from - Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/Ecclesiastical Prisons - Wikisource, the free online library

It appears there is some history of people being kept prisoner in monasteries at least.

You are absolutely right about that. In truth, the monastery is where the idea of the modern prison system started. If my memory serves me right, the idea at first was to sequester the criminal in the midst of deeply pious individuals, so that they would become more pious and less likely to commit crimes. That, of course, morphed over time, but the original intention was rehabilitation.

Of course, there were holding facilities prior to monasteries; the Romans, for example, had places for holding criminals. But, I am fairly sure (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that their prisons were for detaining and interrogating prisoners before trial, rather than punishment after conviction.

I think it should also be noted that there is a big difference between a monastery and a church. In Catholicism, a monastery was a place where people could go either for a period of time or as a holy order and were somewhat closer to universities than churches. They were designed to have general populations who interacted with and debated one another, as well as opportunities for seclusion. A church was a public facility which was often used for a range of town business. The door, for example, was sort of the community calander and announcement board (which is why Luther nailed the 95 theses to the door of the local church). My point here is that churches and monasteries were very different creatures; the former was a public facility for town life, while the latter was a cloistered community for study, piety, and reformation. And, the abbots and the priests often did not get along with one another...

So, all this to say, you are absolutely right. Monasteries were used as correctional facilities, and in many ways pioneered the idea of correctional imprisonment, even though churches themselves were not intended for such use.

 

[The Judge]

Of course, there were holding facilities prior to monasteries; the Romans, for example, had places for holding criminals. But, I am fairly sure (someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that their prisons were for detaining and interrogating prisoners before trial, rather than punishment after conviction.

I'm also pretty sure that's right. Certainly that was the case here in England, that incarceration wasn't seen as a punishment in itself, not until relatively late on. I was going to say not until about 1700, but a quick Google reminded me of Bridewell and Houses of Correction from c1600, though these were for petty offences only, and primarily aimed at keeping a lid on disorderly behaviour and the like. I think there might have been earlier punishment-prisons in Europe, though, as well as debtors' prisons.

But we're drifting away from the topic here, and probably confusing poor SavageBlade, so we'd better get back to the issues in hand!

Can anyone think of a real-life mysterious crypt that SavageBlade could use?

 

[Joshua Jones]

Indeed, sorry to drift. Unfortunately, in the States, we simply don't have structures of that age, much less for that utility, so I am afraid I cannot be of much help there. If, however, you need some help interpreting what you see in your journeys from a religious perspective and the tour/signs aren't helpful, I may be able to help.

 

[The Big Peat]

Can anyone think of a real-life mysterious crypt that SavageBlade could use?

Something that could offer a bit of inspiration are the Capuchin Crypt in Rome, which is filled with little chapels made out of bone. It is fairly awe inspiring to see, and if you stumbled in there without knowing what it is I imagine it would be very mysterious and hella creepy.

Actually, Rome is great in general. There's these huge catacombs, layer after layer of resting place carved into the earth (and used as hiding places from persecution by the early Romans) and places like the Basilisca of Saint Clement - which is basically three churches/temples built on top of each other (there's even a fairly intact Mithraeum right at the bottom).

And I believe Paris has some fairly major catacombs itself.

 

[The Judge]

Ooh, good lateral thinking, TBP! There are catacombs in Sicily, too, though the church above them is a ruin at the one we visited (I think the only one open to the public) The catacombs of St. John in Syracuse. The fascination of history.

Unfortunately, in the States, we simply don't have structures of that age, much less for that utility, so I am afraid I cannot be of much help there.

I think SavageBlade is setting his book in the present or near future, so if I'm understanding him correctly he doesn't need medieval buildings per se, nor do they have to have been used as prisons, just somewhere with a mysterious or perhaps unpleasant feel. Do you know of any large US churches/cathedrals, of any denomination, or indeed monasteries or church-associated buildings, with underground chambers that are more than simply one-room cellars? Or, to put it another way, would it stretch your credulity if a church with such a mysterious chamber were invented for a novel? And if one could be invented, where would be its most plausible location?

 

[SavageBlade900]

Thanks guys, this definitely helps bring me some new and good knowledge and I'll look more into this. Though places like Rome and Britain seem like reasonable locations with ancient monasteries, abbeys, crypts and all.
Though these places might still not fit or make sense for a present to near future setting, unless this took place, unless my setting was taking place in the 15th century :/

 

[SavageBlade900]

I think SavageBlade is setting his book in the present or near future, so if I'm understanding him correctly he doesn't need medieval buildings per se, nor do they have to have been used as prisons, just somewhere with a mysterious or perhaps unpleasant feel. Do you know of any large US churches/cathedrals, of any denomination, or indeed monasteries or church-associated buildings, with underground chambers that are more than simply one-room cellars? Or, to put it another way, would it stretch your credulity if a church with such a mysterious chamber were invented for a novel? And if one could be invented, where would be its most plausible location?

Yes, this is exactly what I'm looking for! If anyone has any resources, information or ideas for a location like this, it would be extremely helpful

 

[The Big Peat]

Ah. If you're looking for little known but real places like that in the States, I can't really help. Best I can do is suggest making up something that fits, like say an old church with a crypt in a ghost town like Centralia, PA - bonus points because a still burning underground fire is pretty gnarly.

 

[Joshua Jones]

Hmmm... I will give a more detailed treatment later today, but if you are going for the states, I would say your best bet would be either a Mormon temple or a Masonic Lodge if you want something preexisting, or somewhere in Montana, Wyoming, New Mexico or Arizona for a secret facility. On the former, neither a Mormon temple or Masonic Lodge are open to the public, so there is definitely opportunity for secrets there. That said, most conspiracy tales involve the Masons, and I don't think the general public takes the Mormons seriously enough to suspect them of such a thing. Depending on your execution, these facts could either help or hinder you. Also, the Masons are quasi-religious, rather than a dedicated religion, but I think there is enough there to make it work.

For a secret group, Montana and Wyoming are both large and sparsely populated, with significant mountain formations, so one could definitely hide a monastery in there. Same for New Mexico and Arizona, but they are also desert, and the former has the Roswell conspiracy attached to it which you may be able to play off of.

Just some initial thoughts. More tonight.

 

[Cathbad]

How about the dangerous labrynths below Chicago? Some teens were playing a live version of Dungeons and Dragons down there in the 80's, and one got himself killed. I've no idea where the access points are, but it's my understanding it's quite extensive.

 

[svalbard]

@The Judge is absolutely right; churches simply don't have dungeons, as prisoners were never kept at a church. Crypts and storage areas, sure, but not dungeons. Somewhat related is that church also didn't torture, burn, or otherwise execute heretics; the state did that, as heresy was considered a crime against society. The church simply identified heretics for the state and sought their repentance. Because of this, there was no real reason for the church to house prisoners in any context or for any capacity, hence no dungeon.

Some of the most famous torturers from the Papal Inquisition of the 14th century were Dominicans and Franciscans. In some areas they ran the Inquisition as an extortion racket.

 

[SavageBlade900]

@The Big Peat
@Joshua Jones
@Cathbad

Thanks! These are all great locations, especially for the states. If you know anymore that would be great! What about in Cape Cod? Could that also work?

And what about places or countries out of the states where places and events like this could exist hidden?

Once again, thank you so much for the feedback.