Did Obi-wan know he was going to die on the Death Star. And if so, for how long?

[w-three]

Frankly, I think its a tangled web. I think Obi-Wan knew, from the moment he arrived on the Death Star, that he was going to be killed by Vader. He knew where it would happen, why it would happen and what it would cause. It was all part of his plan. Throughout the entire time he's on the Death Star he is constantly on edge, and he is completely determined to set out about the way he did.

Naturally, while fighting vader, he is always on the defensive, waiting for the time when luke is running across and can see him. He needs to build reasons to want to defeat Vader, and whats more, now that he has the power to return as a spirit, he can guide Luke. He smiles just before he's chopped down by vader.

I would also go as far as saying that Vader also knew what was happening the entire time, and Vader himself wanted luke to defeat him. He was a slave to the dark side and the emperor, but the little good inside him was constantly guiding Vaders actions, or more likely, inactions.

When Vader walks up to the Falcon, he *knows* Obi-wan, and possibly luke is on board. And he walks away and says nothing. The reason being he cannot let them get captured, nor can he fight Obi-wan now. He cant help them, but he can walk away, so that his dark side does no force him to kill them all.

Vader knows that Obi-wan's plan isnt escape, and he also likely to figure out that his old friend is most likely going to try and make an attempt to allow them to escape. How? By the tractor beam. But he doesnt go after him, why? Its not time.

Neither of the two are fighting very hard in the saber fight, they both know what needs to happen, and they are both waiting for luke to appear.

So, this is my theory. Any ideas?

 

[C Of K]

Hi, w-three. Very interesting ideas you have here. I'm not certain I agree, but they are interesting nonetheless.

First I must disagree, because no one knew that Obi Wan was going to die when he got on the Death Star. When I say no one, I literally mean no one. Not even George Lucas. Up until a day or so before they were to shoot the fight scene, Obi Wan was actually scripted to live through the confrontation. George Lucas actually planned for Obi Wan to die in Return of the Jedi. Instead, his almost splt second decision to kill Obi in episode IV forced him to come up with a new character who could teach Luke to be a jedi. So from a pure scripted standpoint, Obi Wan couldn't have known, because his death came two movies sooner than Lucas first intended it to.

From a story standpoint, I think you may have made some good points. Still, I don't think Obi Wan ever showed such an acute ability to see the future. He did display some small talent in that regard, though Palpatine had a far stronger sense of the future, and even he didn't seem to be able to pin point the moment that Vader would kill him. The most I can say in agreement with you is that Obi Wan probably knew that Vader was on the Death Star, and that he very well could die if they came face to face. I think before Obi Wan separated from the others to adjust the tractor beam, he gave Luke a few parting words of wisdom because of that possibility.

 

[Rodders]

I would imagine that he would've known that he was going to die as soon as he decided to get involved in the mission. I would've been a question of when. Vader wouldn't stop until he had defeated his old master.

 

[Cayal]

I still don't get the whole 'I will be more powerful' when he is gone comment.

I do kind of wish that they did the movies from Ep I to VI just to see a more in depth reaction from Darth Vader to Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[w-three]

I've always seen the "I will become more powerful" as a statement that once he is killed he becomes immortalized. He can follow luke and give him guidance wherever he goes. Obi-wan becomes more powerful *through* luke.

At least thats what I feel.

 

[Interference]

The way Lucas originally described the Force (before all this midichlorian hokum), Ben would have both known and been completely disinterested in the details of one probable death scenario. As a Jedi, he would have known that his physical shell was merely a temporary convenience/inconvenience. Vader, on the other hand, being utterly ego-driven (the dark side) was demonstrably considerably attached to a physical presence and therefore had not perceived the possibilities of an unencumbered Self.

 

[C Of K]

I always thought it noteworthy that there were places that netherworlder Obi Wan couldn't go in order to help Luke out. He couldn't go to cloud city as a ghost, though he would have been able to as a man. So whether he was actually more powerful might be debatable. Personally the living Obi Wan seemed a whole lot more useful. What other restriction could have been put on the ghost that we don't know about?

 

[Rodders]

With regards to Cloud City, i always thought that "He couldn't interfere". In the middle of a fight with Vader, Ben's council and instruction would be distracting.

Interesting in what you say though, perhaps he couldn't go to Bespin as there isn't much life on a gas giant, so the force wouldn't be strong enough to support Ben as a force Ghost? (Just thinking aloud.)

 

[C Of K]

It might be you're right, that Ben could have been a distraction.

Even after the fight, when Luke was hanging upside down at the bottom of cloud city, he called to Ben, and Ben failed to respond. I always found something significant in that. Ben seemed to be under some restrictions to aid Luke, because Luke put his fear of losing Leia before his greater duty to the galaxy as a jedi knight in training.

 

[Rodders]

Luke had rather impetuously just upped and left his training against the advice of both his trainer and his mentor. Perhaps Ben was teaching him some sort of lesson? That Luke cannot always rely on others?

 

[C Of K]

Lol. That would be a very cruel lesson indeed. I'm not sure it would have worked for Luke in that instance. He did end up calling out to Leia, and endangering her by doing so.

This is all just me speculating, but there seemed to be a good chance that Luke would be turned against the jedi during his rescue attempt. I always had the sense that he was on a dark path by going to face Vader before he was ready and that an agent of the force, such as Ben, was bound to another path more in tune to the will of the force.

As long as Luke followed Ben's instructions, Ben kept appearing to him. But when Luke veered away from Ben's instructions, Ben didn't appear again until Return of the Jedi, which was set about a year later.

 

[Huttman]

If Obi-Wan was doing it correctly, he was letting the Force guide his path to whatever means necessary to bring the Force back into balance. To coin a phrase from another famous trilogy, he was probably making it up as he was going along. After his death, being beyond the physical, he would have had no restrictions on going anywhere physical. The points made here as to why are all sound, but Obi-Wan knew Luke instinctivly would call out to his sister, the only other Jedi capable person (that was not on another planet anyway) that existed. Luke may not have known the reason fully as to why Ben couldn't assist, but he was following his heart, and that usually leads people headfirst into some kind of trouble. Ben knew that, let Luke go, and probably genuinly believed that somehow it would turn out the Force would help Luke for which he needed greatly to rely on.

 

[Boneman]

From a film-making pov, Lucas struggled to get the cash to make the film, and if it had flopped there would have been no sequels, just end of story. So, the script said "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine," and the writer obviously thought it was a pretty good exit line. But let's be honest, Darth Vader can imagine a death star power, and Obi knew this, so it was just to gain time, nothing more, so that Luke and the others could escape. He wasn't about to say "need a throat lozenge?" was he? And he didn't become more powerful than Darth could imagine, did he? He just turned up periodically and dispensed some very dubious wisdom to Luke (who ignored most of it...)

Once the first film became so successful they were hoisted by their own petard, and had to invent a new death star to keep the tension going. Without it, they'd have just sat back and waited for the emporer to die...

 

[C Of K]

Hey there, Huttman. Been a while. How's things? As always, a very insightful post. Not sure how much Obi knew what Luke would do, but it is quite likely he could travel anywhere, as you say. Now that I thought on this, it would be rediculous for him to be restricted from going there. Though I'm certain he travels in a much different style these days.

But then I realized, the issue isn't his abiltiy to travel someplace that matters, but rather his ability to appear to, or speak to, Luke. He appeared frequently on Dagobah, as though it were an easy thing to do there.

It seems to be an important point that he could not interfere at Bespin, regardless of what happened. From the way Ben was talking, it didn't seem like he had a choice in the matter. If Luke and Vader sat down for tea to play nice, I always had the feeling that Obi Wan couldn't materialize to join them if he wanted to.

Perhaps he was not allowed to reveal the secret of his immortality to a Sith Lord? Its hard to guess why he could not interfere/appear/speak/help Luke, or whatever it was he meant by, "interfere". It's fun to come up with wacky theories though.

 

[Huttman]

It's fun to come up with wacky theories though.

That is is, C of K! Good to be back, been offline for a while. It's been great and difficult all at the same time. Haven't escaped either yet.
The great thing about Star wars for me is, not only has my creative imagination been so enormously influenced by it, it has inspired my thinking ability, too. What Mr. Lucas meant for that line is unclear, as he has never commented on it. (Wait...checking ANH commentary...) Nope, not much said there. Just something about Ben being able to influence more by not being a Jedi anymore and his death as meant to put Luke on his own path alone to figure things out. But George Lucas, in his vagueness about things, seems to be able to allow all sorts of people with different ideas, beliefs, and backgrounds to fill in the blanks of sorts and still enjoy these movies and feel it's personal to them that they can relate to it and find there own belief in it. Or do I just over-anylize everything too much still???

 

[Cayal]

Luke had rather impetuously just upped and left his training against the advice of both his trainer and his mentor. Perhaps Ben was teaching him some sort of lesson? That Luke cannot always rely on others?

With the stakes so high is it really the best time to play disgruntled lesson giver?

 

[paranoid marvin]

Does he die? Sure , Vader's lightsabre strikes him , but Ben simply disappears. Now this isn't usual (witness limbs/bodies being torn by lightsabres in the films) and also Vader is suprised at Kenobi's disappearance. So has he died , or did he simply somehow meld into the Force?

 

[C Of K]

A very good question, paranoid marvin. You've echoed the sentiments of the jedi code quite well, about there being no such thing as death. And yet, just before disappearing into the force, Yoda himself claimed that he was not strong enough to avoid death.

So I guess you could say Ben did die, but In a way, he did not. Guess it all depends on how you look at it.

 

[Dale_M]

For want of another opinion... I don't think Obi Wan knew he was going to die. He was shaking in his pants the whole time he was on the Death Star, constantly striving to make sure he does meet Vader, then he bumps into him and thinks 'Oh, ****!' He plays around with the light saber a bit, and for a small moment actually thinks he might be able to kill Vader. That moment shrivels away real quick, and just as he's about to turn and run like mad, he notices Luke and the locksmith struggling for time, so on the spur of the moment decides to engage Vader. He soon realizes he's massively over-estimated his odds, and in a last pathetic gesture makes the famous remark and concedes.

He never did come back. That was just Luke's imagination. He was just a pathetic little man, unable to get his big head around the failed aspirations of his little life...