This boy in the brotherhood without banners...

Syphon of Oor-Tael

is going fishing
Feb 25, 2009
I´ve picked up book 3B just now and on (my) page 35, there's a little description of Ned, Beric Dondarrion's squire.

Translated: "Arya liked the squire, maybe a little shy, but a good kid. She'd always heard that Dornish were small and dark, and had black eyes and little black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark they almost looked purple. And his hair was light, more ashen than honey".

Is it me or does this sound like the spawn of a Targaryen? Maybe it's a red herring, but it almost sounds too Valyrian to be true.

Edit: oops. I completely missed it. Of course. That was Edric Dayn. >(

Since this thread is about Valyria in some way anyway, here's another:
What do you suppose the Doom was?
I'm thinking it was some sort of a great cloud. Probably vulcanoes.
This continues Arya's connections to nobility in unlikely circumstances.

She met Gendry, Robert Baratheon's *******, while traveling with Yoren.

She met Elmar Frey, her betrothed, in Harrenhal.

She met Edric Dayne, presumably the nephew of Arthur Dayne and of Ashara Dayne (Eddard's first love), while with the Brotherhood.

She traveled extensively with Sandor Clegane.

Here's some other discussions on Valyria. Valyria. Valyrian Blood. The Doom of Old Valyria. What was the Doom?

There are some posts that'll have some helpful ideas... Personally, I think they messed with the earth's crust under Valyria and were blown to bits by massive eruptions and earthquakes.
Makes sense to me.

Their mighty wizards were renowned for shaping stone like clay and the mines around Valyria went so far down into the volcanoes they awoke firewyrms. Obviously these people had a major affinity for fire and stone.

The Doom apparently involved the volcanoes rupturing the mainland. Also demons appeared out of nowhere and ran amok.

I think it makes sense they had to have attempted something really dangerous and ambitious to warrant that kind of backlash. You don't just wind up with a civilization-destroying cataclysm by minding your own business.
Gmm. Waking up firewyrms? That sounds an awful lot like Fire and Shadow to me.
You know, you shall not pass? I am not sure.

Maybe the Doom was just the end of Valyria because its time had come?
I also expect never to quite find out, though I imagine that a story written during the Doom would be quite compelling.
Syphon, I'm sorry... I think the best references to the Doom are in AFFC. But it's still not a first person view nor a first hand account... The Doom is still presented as half-legend.

You stated in your OP that you are currently reading Book 3B... so that mean ASOS was divided into two parts (in Europe?) and you're currently near the end of the second part? If that's the case, I apologize for the spoilers.

Yes, a story of the Doom would be compelling. GRRM has put so much substance and so many intriguing components into this world that he could spend the rest of his life just writing prequels and sequels to the ASOIAF mythos. Somehow, I doubt he'll do that.
I don't know what Fire and Shadow is.


In the history of the House of Black and White as it is explained to Arya she is told that the mines of Old Valyria went so deep they encountered firewyrms, which were often a source of death for the enslaved miners. Their masters didn't care and ordered them to keep digging. From this perspective the firewyrms, which are not true dragons but more like giant fire-breathing earthworms or some such, are like the retribution of the deep earth for delving too deep. In their arrogance and wickedness the Valyrian Dragonlords plundered things they probably should not have, wakening both the firewyrms and the God of Many Faces.

I think that both of those factor into the Doom somehow.
Syphon, you're asking good questions. You're thinking ahead... yet you need to beware. I usually don't pay attention to remarks like "I'm in Book 3b"... I usually just assume that if you're here, then you're current on all plots and characters.

Spoilers... (highlight to read)

I forgot... there is a first hand account of Valyria. Euron, Crow's Eye, told Victarion of his travels. He did not give specifics, but the feeling is that Valyria is still a smoldering ruin.

Also, don't forget that one of Tywin's ancestors took the Lannister Valyrian Steel sword, Brightroar, on his journey to Valyria... and the sword was lost. Tywin's youngest brother, Gerion, disappeared on a quest to find it. Tyrion, who had a great affinity for Uncle Gerry, may decide that he could shake Cersei's hired knives in Valyria while looking for the sword and researching dragon history.
At least for my country, the Netherlands, yes, A Storm of Swords has been cut into two parts. 3A is downstairs somewhere, but 3B is here with me. It starts with Dany as she approaches Yunkai. Oh, and I did indeed read everything so no need to worry there. :D

I will get to reading Feast for Crows soon, so I will have to take your word, Smiley. :)
As for Tywin's ancestor going to Valyria, I believe indeed that "Uncle Gerry" was mentioned to have gone east only 8 years ago, according to Tyrion.

I do have a theory why the ruins might still be smoldering. The part I just read (just after Joffrey's wedding to Margaery) has Tyrion mentioning that it's been 300 years after Aegon's Landing. Since the Doom happened roughly 100 years before that, we have got a gap of 400 years between it and the book's current date. Now, here's the crux: Volcanoes go dormant for long stretches of time, so assuming that the thing that did in Valyria was indeed a chain of volcanoes going kersplode, they might have gone back to active and asleep again a few times. Especially if it was a lot of smaller ones.

Of course, we have more information than that.
Demons were there, and indeed those firewyrms. Despite knowing that dragons were quite real and are real again, I am inclined to believe that all that was just the ignorant townsfolk making for an explanation of the ground spitting fire. You know, much like how our ancestors said gods were angry when it was thundering.

Regarding Flame and Shadow, I was referring to Tolkien. The Dwarves of Moria mined too deep in their greed and awoke a Balrog of Morgoth, a being of fire and shadows. I really hope that your explanation is wrong, Smile. Nothing against you, I assure you. It's just that I really admire originality and I know George can do better.
One can claim ignorance, of course, but something as widely printed as Tolkien's Lord of the Rings? I'm not buying it.
Things being woken up is a common trope in literature. The fact that Tolkien incorporates it does not, in fact, mean that he originated it. Nor does it make it a less than valid plot element.

If we were to say only the truey and completely original counted as art and everything afterwards was garbage, the publishing industry would have been dead at around the year 1912. As fiction goes.

EVERYTHING derived from something, and the idea that originality automatically equals greatness is false anyway. I assume that you're looking at this through the Nostalgia Filter, or else just assigning too much importance to it.

Anyway, my point is that I have yet to read something less than fully developed and realized in his work. Passing judgement on something you haven't is just foolish.
As a writer myself I know how hard it is to remain original. I also know that whenever you make something and it is succesful, the ideas go on the large pile that is the public domain. Now, as for "things being woken up", it is indeed a very common trope. And I am in no way saying that Tolkien was the progenitor of this idea. But the fact remains that it is a common trope. I am confident that Martin can give his personal spin to it. Yet, it stays a cmmon trope.
Raven: First, just 'cause I'm here all the time does not mean I know how to do spoilers... that would require me to actually pay attention.

Second, uh, well, in my defense, I'll say that I'm extremely gullible and very inobservant... I took you-know-who's remarks at face value even if neither the characters in the book nor you did so.

Third, I take no responsibility for the content of my posts.

Finally, what I'm trying to say is.... Please, for the love of God, explain Euron's remarks regarding Valyria!
Does anyone know if we will see Victarion's POV in ADWD? I didn't think so since most of ADWD is happening parallel to AFFC, therefore it won't be until TWOW that we see him again and his trip to Dany, which we speculated may mean he will bring her to Valyria. Now, GRRM did say that ADWD will advance the storyline beyond AFFC and we will see POV's from characters in AFFC like Arya and Asha.
There's a rumour that GRRM might know, TK. I don't know who else might, though.
Second, uh, well, in my defense, I'll say that I'm extremely gullible and very inobservant... I took you-know-who's remarks at face value even if neither the characters in the book nor you did so.

Well, it's very subtle and easy to miss. Go check the Reader's remarks about it to Asha: I think it's in her second chapter in AFFC. He appears sceptical.

Finally, what I'm trying to say is.... Please, for the love of God, explain Euron's remarks regarding Valyria!

Can't do that, not definitively. He might have been there - he might not, that's all. We have no reason to doubt it save that one tiny clue...
As for Tywin's ancestor going to Valyria, I believe indeed that "Uncle Gerry" was mentioned to have gone east only 8 years ago, according to Tyrion.

In A Storm of Swords, Tyrion reflects that the Lannister's Valyrian greatsword "Brightroar" was lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his "fool's quest". We know this occurred before Aegon's Conquest.

Tyrion also reflects that his uncle Gerion went seeking after the sword 8 years ago.
I think TSW said it well. Isn't one of the great things about GRRM that he steals from literature liberally? Also, from history, steals the most evocative moments, twists, reworks, complicates and writes elegantly.

I wonder how he works, but sometimes I imagine that I can see what might have happened. Hmmm. Richard the Third, the crouchback. What if ( and "what if" isn't that how a lot of SF and fantasy is created?") I wrote a story with a real dwarf. What problems would he have? How would he cope?

How about Margaret of Anjou? The she wolf of France and queen of England. What about giving her motivation and fleshing her out?

Anne Boleyn and her brother George were accused and even executed for incest and it probably was just vindictive bollocks. What if it were true?

How could I write in a Henry the VIII type character? (Robert??)

So a lot of history could be used as a starting point, or as part of the mix, but it is all original.

Do you think the "fire" characters could cause some sort of destruction sequence that they can't control, like from a crack of doom buried under the wall, or from a series of dormant volcanoes, like might have happened in Valyria? And then it is up to the Ice characters to save the day?

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