Edgar Allan Poe

[j d worthington]

Yes, as Lovecraft notes in the essay, Poe's "horror", whether prose or verse, amounts to a relatively small amount of his work (less than a quarter), and that is stretching to include some of his grislier humor ("King Pest", for instance) and "tales of ratiocination" which are sometimes collected under such a guise. Some of his humor wears quite well, while other pieces really do seem to fit HPL's description of "pseudo-humour"; especially given Poe's view that the grotesque (in the sense of that which was disproportioned or simply at odds with the main substance) was of itself quite humorous.

His criticism, by the way, is often quite amusing, as Poe often let his sense of humor and satire have free reign. Of course, when he let the latter really go, no one in their right mind would have wanted to be on the receiving end... but at times those are the most likely to produce a genuine belly-laugh....

However, now that we have the ball rolling on the subject of Poe again... anyone care to tackle a discussion of "The Raven"? I've recently reread that one in three editions, including T. O. Mabbott's annotated edition, where he discusses it at great length. I knew the thing was popular, even in Poe's day, but good grief! within the first four years or so following its publication, the list of imitations, parodies, etc., is amazingly long.

However, what I had in mind was more a certain point concerning the question the narrator poses, concerning whether he will once again meet "in the distant Aidenn" his "lost Lenore", to which the raven replies: "Nevermore". Now... based on the text of the verse, I'd like to hear some thoughts on this aspect. What, do you think, is the reason (if any) for this?....

 

[J Riff]

I just read it recently...and curiously just finished a ...detective book ...dang I can't remember and I passed it on to someone... in which the detective is tracking a rare version of 'The Raven"... said detective is also a rare book dealer....
Oh well. The reason for never meeting Lenore again... based on the text ...I don't know. Seems like this bird is just bad news all the way...whatever it is, the Raven 'nevermores' it... Lenore- 'nameless here forevermore.." ? how is she nameless?
Then he asks it about her..." Nevermore'..and the bird stays and he is doomed. No Lenore, just this bird over his door.
Without knowing a bit more about Lenore...I can't imagine..... mayhap she is deceased... or is she just living in the town of Aidenn (From Hebrew עדן (éden, “Eden”- paradise) ... it's a mystery to me.

 

[Connavar]

I was working my way through one of the zillion complete works of Poe one tends to trip over in the book stores a number of years ago and was surprised how much non-horror fiction he wrote. I was under the impression back then, except for poetry and criticism, that was all he wrote. I need to read more Poe, no doubt about it.

I need to read more outside his horror,detective stories. Frankly the only reason i dont have a complete collection of tales,poetry is that there are 1000s of them. I dont want one with illustrations.

 

[j d worthington]

I just read it recently...and curiously just finished a ...detective book ...dang I can't remember and I passed it on to someone... in which the detective is tracking a rare version of 'The Raven"... said detective is also a rare book dealer....
Oh well. The reason for never meeting Lenore again... based on the text ...I don't know. Seems like this bird is just bad news all the way...whatever it is, the Raven 'nevermores' it... Lenore- 'nameless here forevermore.." ? how is she nameless?
Then he asks it about her..." Nevermore'..and the bird stays and he is doomed. No Lenore, just this bird over his door.
Without knowing a bit more about Lenore...I can't imagine..... mayhap she is deceased... or is she just living in the town of Aidenn (From Hebrew עדן (éden, “Eden”- paradise) ... it's a mystery to me.

Yes, Lenore is deceased. That is where the "nameless" comes in; in this usage, the meaning is "she will not be named [directly] or her name called [as in speaking to] here", for she is no longer among the living. And yes, Aidenn is the Garden of Eden, used in the metaphorical sense of "Paradise" (even in Poe's day it was an unusual but not unheard of reference). So he is asking if, in the afterlife, they will be reunited, and the raven's response is a decided negative. The question I am posing here, essentially, is... why? Is Lenore damned? Is the narrator? Is oblivion all that waits (certainly to many people of Poe's day -- including Poe himself, who was devoutly religious -- a terrifying prospect)? (Though I must say, with Lovecraft, that "it is enough for me, at any rate".)

If Lenore is in such a case, this would be both a true blow for the narrator, given his view of her, and ironic, given his description of her; just the sort of horrific irony Poe used in "Ligeia".

A part of this is the nature of the raven itself. Is this (as is hinted at first somewhat humorously) by the narrator, some spirit flown from "the Night's Plutonian shore" (i.e., the realm of Pluto, the Underworld)? Or perhaps, as is more darkly imagined in the final stanza, is it a demonic spirit come to torment him forevermore? ("And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming / And the lamplight o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor / And my soul from out that shadow which lies floating on the floor / Shall be lifted -- nevermore").

The poem, of course, raises more questions than it answers -- such is generally the nature of such art; but I'd like to hear what others make of this one. I'll admit that I see several possible readings of it, all of which can be supported by the text. I'd like to hear what reading others favor. It isn't a question which I think can be "settled"; it hasn't been to this point, not by the brightest minds to approach it; but I'm curious how others read the poem as a narrative.

 

[j d worthington]

This is one of those which, when I saw it, I felt like an idiot for not noting it before, but....

I was reading Poe's "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar" last night, when the following passage (or, rather, certain aspects of it) struck me rather forcibly:

There was no longer the faintest sign of vitality in M. Valdemar; and concluding him to be dead, we were consigning him to the charge of the nurses, when a strong vibratory motion was observable in the tongue. This continued for perhaps a minute. At the expiration of this period, there issued from the distended and motionless jaws a voice — such as it would be madness in me to attempt describing. There are, indeed, two or three epithets which might be considered as applicable to it in part; I might say, for example, that the sound was harsh, and broken and hollow; but the hideous whole is indescribable, for the simple reason that no similar sounds have ever jarred upon the ear of humanity. There were two particulars, nevertheless, which I thought then, and still think, might fairly be stated as characteristic of the intonation — as well adapted to convey some idea of its unearthly peculiarity. In the first place, the voice seemed to reach our ears — at least mine — from a vast distance, or from some deep cavern within the earth, [[.]] In the second place, it impressed me (I fear, indeed, that it will be impossible to make myself comprehended) as gelatinous or glutinous matters impress the sense of touch.

[...] I have spoken both of "sound" and of "voice." I mean to say that the sound was one of distinct — of even wonderfully, thrillingly distinct — syllabification. M. Valdemar spoke — obviously in reply to the question I had propounded to him a few minutes before. I had asked him, it will be remembered, if he still slept. He now said:

"Yes; — no; — I have been sleeping — and now — now — I am dead."

No person present even affected to deny, or attempted to repress, the unuterable [[unutterable]], shuddering horror which these few words, thus uttered, were so well calculated to convey. Mr. L——l (the student) swooned. The nurses immediately left the chamber, and could not be induced to return. My own impressions I would not pretend to render intelligible to the reader.

Now, I had recently reread Lovecraft's "The Statement of Randolph Carter" for an essay I was writing, and suddenly it struck me that -- albeit, I am quite certain, unconsciously -- this passage from "Valdemar" almost certainly influenced the denouement of that tale, given certain elements of description; such as the voice coming from a cavern immeasurably deep within the earth; the nature of that voice, which Lovecraft describes in these terms: "Shall I say that the voice was deep; hollow; gelatinous; remote; unearthly; inhuman; disembodied?"; the narrator's inability to sum up his own feelings or reactions for the reader, etc. Given HPL's passage on "Valdemar" in SHiL, and his later comments to Robert Barlow on Poe's change of "putrescence" (which HPL quoted in that essay) to "putridity" in his final version (which Lovecraft felt weakened the impact by creating a dissonance in the prose rhythm of the tale... on which I must admit I agree), and the fact that it also almost certainly influenced (again, subconsciously, as consciously Lovecraft traced the influence to Machen's "Novel of the White Powder") HPL's "Cool Air"... I would be willing to bet an unconscious memory of this descriptive passage had its echoes in the dream which inspired "The Statement of Randolph Carter"; and almost certainly it must have influenced the phrasing he used at the end of that tale.....

 

[J Riff]

Well... she WAS there.. laying on the cushion...and the home is now haunted by horror.. so Lenore may have expired, or been done in, in the actual house...and the bird is there to remind him of that- forever.
So our narrator looks guilty in this light... did he kill her?
He did, and the bird is the symbol of his guilt - forevermore. Why else would it be there?
Funny nobody ever got Poe to explain this one.

 

[j d worthington]

Well... she WAS there.. laying on the cushion...and the home is now haunted by horror.. so Lenore may have expired, or been done in, in the actual house...and the bird is there to remind him of that- forever.
So our narrator looks guilty in this light... did he kill her?
He did, and the bird is the symbol of his guilt - forevermore. Why else would it be there?
Funny nobody ever got Poe to explain this one.

An interesting reading. While I don't share the views expressed, something similar has been held, apparently, by quite a few, including some Poe scholars, from what I understand; these generally associate the Raven with the Remorse the narrator feels; the Raven, in a sense, becomes Conscience.

By the way... Poe did explain his writing of this particular piece, in his essay, "The Philosophy of Composition", which is a fascinating piece:

Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore - Works - Essays - The Philosophy of Composition (A)

There has always been debate on whether or not Poe actually wrote it thus mechanically -- a debate which, it seems, founds support both ways from statements Poe made at various times -- but either way, his explanation of the rationale behind his choices, and especially his emphasis of the Raven as "emblematical of Mournful and Never-ending Remembrance" at the end, is notable. I will only add a point or two to this as food for thought: the tale of the metamorphosis of the raven from its originally white plumage and size (comparable to that of a swan) in Ovid, as a result of Apollo's cursing of the bird due to its betrayal of a nymph he loved (despite her infidelity, which the raven reported); and the relationship of ravens to Odin, perhaps particularly as god of the gallows, and the fact that the ravens perched on his shoulders are Huginn and Muninn (Mind and Memory).

 

[No One]

I've wondered myself if there was deliberate intent on Poe's part in using the raven in context of Odin's own Huginn and Muninn, especially as the symbolism fits so perfectly with the narrator's, possibly (if not likely), self-inflicted torment. Thanks for clearing that up J.D.

On the matter of whether or not the narrator has murdered Lenore, I can't see how any other conclusion can be drawn without moving into realms of symbolism that could mean any number of interpretations (although the fact that he feels guilty over her death doesn't have to mean he actually murdered her - he might simply feel he could have done more to prevent whatever course of events lead to her demise, which would lead on to the idea of whether or not he is justly or unjustly blaming himself and whether or not there are any actual external forces at play, as opposed to the torment being entirely self-imposed from within).

On a minor point, I've not read extensively at all on insights and analysis into Poe's work, but is it anywhere clarified as to which bust of Pallas is over the door? The obvious conclusion is of Pallas Athena, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

My immediate response to the idea of connecting the raven with the bust of Athena could lead me to thinking that the plight of the narrator includes the demise and loss of all that Athena represents, i.e: wisdom, civilisation, and perhaps most pertinently justice, for which there is no "balm of Gilead". Of course, whether that could be further taken to mean the narrator has been isolated from these things because of his loss/possible murder of Lenore may just be fanciful thinking (as would be inferring a deliberate connection between the occurance of the narrator's lonliness with the bust in the line: "Leave my loneliness unbroken! - quit the bust above my door!").

As a note, having just read the poem again - that last refrain ALWAYS sends a shiver through me! So just for good measure...

And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted - nevermore!

*promptly shivers again*

 

[j d worthington]

Judging from Poe's correspondence that I've read, yes, it was a bust of Pallas Athena. This would also be supported by his essay "The Rationale of Verse". As for the interpretation, and the symbolism of the bust (destruction of wisdom, etc.)... I'd not come across that before, but it's an interesting thought. I think, though, if adopted, it might be more of the destruction of all the beauty and glory which Graeco-Roman culture represented, rather than just those elements which were Athena's particular province. The bust (and therefore the figure) of Pallas Athena as synecdoche, in other words....

Good thoughts, folks; some interesting insights here....

 

[No One]

Thanks again for clearing up the nature of the bust J.D. - and I'm inclined to agree with your thoughts.

I've also just seen a previous post concerning a film based on Poe's life (though I hadn't realized the speculation went so far back!). I'm aware though, that Sylvester Stallone has apparently been working on a script for said film for many years and still wants to make it.

A "slightly" unpromising note (putting aside the issue of Stallone's abilities as a writer, which I'm no position to judge) is that Stallone's connections lie with the same studio that produced the likes of Shark in Venice and Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus!

However, on a much more promising note, the last I heard was that Stallone's favoured choice for the role would be Robert Downey Jr, which I'd go so far as to say would be ideal.

 

[j d worthington]

Downey has the ability, if the script were any good... and if he didn't hot-dog it through the thing. John Aston has done a one-man show playing Poe, and certainly, from what I've seen of it in clips, could carry the role very well. In the proper make-up and costume, he looks at times uncannily like Poe, and his delivery seems to have the range I detect in Poe's "voice" from laconic to feverishly impassioned....

 

[j d worthington]

Further thoughts from Poe on "The Raven"; this time from a letter to George W. Eveleth, dated 15 December, 1846:

Your objection to the tinkling of the footfalls is far more pointed, and in the course of composition occurred so forcibly to myself that I hesitated to use the term. I finally used it because I saw that it had, in its first conception, been suggested to my mind by the sense of the supernatural with which it was, at the moment, filled. No human or physical foot could tinkle on a soft carpet — therefore the tinkling of feet would vividly convey the supernatural impression. This was the idea, and it is good within itself: — but if it fails (as I fear it does) to make itself immediately and generally felt according to my intention — then in so much is it badly con[v]eyed, or expressed.

 

[J Riff]

Never-ending remembrance and self-torture. Should have guessed.
Unbelievably pedantic, then he turns on a dime and
talks so's I kin understand it. Tx for that, all would-be poets should read it.

My favorite line was always:
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming
No reason.

Looks like whatever happened to Lenore - doesn't matter. It's more about what the student does with the opportunity to punish himself.

 

[j d worthington]

Just a correction for my earlier post. That second reference should also have been to "The Philosophy of Composition", not "The Rationale of Verse", which is quite a different thing, being an expansion of his earlier essay on English versification....

Glad you found the essay (or at least parts of it) of interest. Still, while (as I noted earlier) I wouldn't agree with your interpretation concerning Lenore's possible murder, I wouldn't discard it entirely as a possible reading, as there have apparently been some commentators who held the same view.

The "tinkling" footfalls on the carpet, I think, is actually a very fine touch of the otherworldly, a subtle intrusion of the unnatural world into the natural....

 

[J Riff]

No, he didn't do it. I retract all previous charges on our hapless student narrator. Seems like a decent kid, hardly the sort to kill his GF, let alone be able to get away with it.
Reading the essay - what a maniac Poe was! Did he really think in intricate detail like that, all the time? And talk like that in real life, like he had a thesaurus growing on his brain?
Fabulous. What's your take, JD?

 

[No One]

I don't believe Poe could have written the way he did if he didn't think like he did (as least to some degree). It seems almost inhuman by today's standards, but that's why I will always hold the best of the 19th century so high.

I haven't read a huge deal on all of that century's great minds (and I realise this is a giant generalisation), but I think I've read enough to guess that Poe came onto the scene of general society before each school of science became too overly specialised in one department of their fields. He was a polymath before the innovations of the Victorian period started making the polymath obselete.

Actually, I think this was a lasting impression made on me when I read David Newsome's The Victorian World Picture, which I remember being a brilliant read (and yet another candidate for re-reading - sigh).

 

[Connavar]

I did read The Raven for the first time today i didnt even plan to. I was reading other modern 1800s english,american poetry in classic lit collection for homework in lit class and i couldnt stop myself when i saw The Raven. His rich language,wonderful stylised prose was a suprise to me. I have read his horror,his detective stories and his prose was more strict,leaner. I thought he was more of a substance and not a stylised prose author.

I thought his poetry prose style would be like Wordsworth who had down to earth language,not stylised prose in his poetry.

I liked how long The Raven was,how vivid,the athmosphere. I couldnt help but try to figure out the references,to analyse the poem. The hidden messages. Weird in how poetry class when we read popular modern 1800s poetry Poe is only mentioned as the start of that era and not read,analysed. The teacher choosed
Whitman,Dickenson,Baudiliare,Rimbaud instead. I would have had alot to say about The Raven myself

 

[j d worthington]

J Riff: No One has it pretty much on the dot there. Yes, Poe did think that analytically, at least a great deal of the time. His "Mystery of Marie Rogêt" was his own attempt to analyze and solve a famous New York murder case, that of Mary Rogers, for instance; and he had a column where, for quite some time, he solved just about any cryptogram which was sent him. And, as Arthur Hobson Quinn noted, while he may not have been America's first critic, he was our first great critic. Even in his letters, this comes through very strongly.

However, he was hardly alone in this; certainly as far as his use of language goes. That was fairly common in nineteenth-century literature (let alone eighteenth!); and the impress of the "Age of Reason" was still very much felt. Bulwer, for instance, who could at times be tiresomely peripatetic in his writing, could also be incisive, analytical, and even now and again quite melodious... and had a vocabulary which even Poe could only match, not surpass. Try reading, say, "Q" (Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch), for an example; or J. Sheridan Le Fanu; or Mary Shelley (at least in her mature work; the language in Frankenstein is a bit less erudite at times). And then there's always Walter de la Mare.....

 

[J Riff]

'The Gold Bug' features the solving of a puzzle leading to vast riches!
Le Fanu I enjoyed. What I was inquiring, JD, was your take on the Raven, and Lenore. I've decided she was a literary device - this and nothing more - and the kid is innocent.

 

[j d worthington]

- this and nothing more -

Ouch!

I suppose that depends on what you mean by that phrase. I would call her more a symbol of the idea of a beautiful woman, passionately loved, and lost through death; in some ways representing Poe's own fears concerning his wife Virginia, who had been in fragile health for some years, and was in fact to die within a year or two, at the very young age of twenty-four.

Incidentally, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that is one of the sad yet macabre elements in Poe's life. He doated on Virginia, who was also his cousin (this was in an era where marrying one's first cousin was still fairly common), but for some reason they had never had a likeness of her made, either in painting, sketch, or daguerreotype. It wasn't until she died that Poe realized this oversight and, panic-stricken at the thought of not having anything to represent his beloved lady, asked a friend who was also an artist, to make a likeness of her. So the only authentic image of Virginia Clemm Poe we have, was actually a piece done of her corpse on her deathbed....

File:VirginiaPoe.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia