When fantasy is just too dark

[hitmouse]

With the 'social realism' they add fake depth through people's backs hurting, their food being icky, the doctors being incompetent, the horse having worms..

I think you are conflating "dark" with "irrelevant and distracting detail" , something that occurs in low-grade fiction of every hue and genre.

 

[Toby Frost]

Personally I rather like the detail. So long as it's not piled on in absurd quantities, I think it can really help. I'm much more willing to be interested in a world where the author has done some rearch into what it's like to ride a horse, how medieval society works and so on rather than just another chainmail-and-fencing-foils mashup. Likewise I'd rather read a book with decent characterisation. Fantasy can get generic very quickly.

But I agree that dark stuff can feel really fake. It's when the writer feels the need to put in details not for the sake of realism but just to up the misery-content that it feels false.

I wonder if this general discussion ties into the opinion occasionally made that good guys are boring. Yes, they are boring if you regard characterisation as a sign of rampant evil. I actually had to tone down some of the lunacy in Space Captain Smith when I looked at some of the real-world soldiers and explorers that his personailty is based upon. I think that evil characters are more boring, because they tend to do exactly what the Dark Lord tells them.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

That's what makes Gollum such an interesting character.

 

[hitmouse]

That's what makes Gollum such an interesting character.

Exactly. The bad guys are often much more interesting than the knight in shining armour.

Steerpike
Alan Howard Treesong et al
Ming the Merciless
Professor Moriarty
Miss Brunner
The Queen of Hearts
Morgana le Fay
The Joker
Shere Khan
Long John Silver
Captain Hook
Judge Holden
Mr Hyde
Mrs Coulter
Voldemort
Ebenezer Scrooge
Obadiah Slope

 

[Anne Lyle]

Even better than bad guys - the ones who you're unsure which side they're on:

Severus Snape
Lord Gro

um, would come up with some more but I have to go and catch my bus home!

 

[rune]

Ive found this thread interesting because I like dark fantasy. I did struggle with Martin's series and Eddings not because they were too dark, but because they were too heavy on the political side

I loved the Farseers series by Hobb And yes when you have favourite characters get hurt or die, it really gets to you
And I also like most of China Mieville stuff, great characters

So what series/books would folks recommend that are dark, but not too political Always looking for something gritty

 

[Vladd67]

I actually had to tone down some of the lunacy in Space Captain Smith when I looked at some of the real-world soldiers and explorers that his personailty is based upon.

Too true when you look back at the life of some of the Victorian soldiers and explorers they make Allan Quartermain look like a wimpish stay-at-home.

 

[thaddeus6th]

It's not quite the same era, but reminds me of a fantastic photo I saw on QI. It was in the days of early aviation, and showed two chap playing table tennis on the wings of an airborne plane!

Rune, I love the political aspects of A Song of Ice and Fire. Mind you, I'm quite into classical history and politics.

 

[Anne Lyle]

So what series/books would folks recommend that are dark, but not too political Always looking for something gritty

The Steel Remains, by Richard Morgan. Dark and violent, but wonderfully written. Less political than GRRM, more focused around three main characters, all war veterans, who find themselves facing...well you'll have to read it to find out

Sequel The Cold Commands is out, but I haven't read it yet...

 

[JQP]

JQP, put some big SPOILER tags on that, man!

Whoops, sorry. I think the time for editing is past.

 

[JQP]

I think everyone over the age of four knows that medieval life was utterly squalid and unpleasant.

I read an article recently about a study that found that material wealth in medieval England was greater than that in large parts of modern sub-Saharan Africa.

But I agree with your overall point. I enjoy a taste of darkness as much as the next man, but darkity-dark-darkness-darkie-darkishness becomes monotonous very quickly.

If the story doesn't require that, then there shouldn't be a need to put it in. A book can be very grim and realistic - The Cruel Sea for instance - or gloomy and slightly morbid, like Gormenghast, but still brilliant. It's the lack of wit, in terms of either deft cleverness or humour, that's really depressing.

Thing is, people have this magnificent tendency to adjust. Circumstances modern tenderfoots would think of as unbearable from a distance become bearable when you're dropped into them, or more likely, raised in them. People probably sang more songs together and had a better sense of happy community in those squalid middle ages than they do in America today.

The trouble seems to be the way drama works. Well-adjusted, competent, happy people don't make for good drama; maladjusted, incompetend, unhappy people do. Or at least, that seems to be the prevailing wisdom as to how to skirt the challenge of being a good writer.

Glad you mentioned Gormenghast, as that is a prime example of classic fantasy which has plenty of darkness and grim realization of the tragedy of life to it. It also has some completely slapstick elements as well; the two don't necessarily work against each other, either. Sometimes they actually strengthen by contrast.

Indeed, if anything, the two go together like apple pie and ice cream; people beset by woes tend to party that much harder, laugh that much louder, etc. It's modern ennui-ridden nihilists that miss this, I suspect.

Personally I rather like the detail. So long as it's not piled on in absurd quantities, I think it can really help. I'm much more willing to be interested in a world where the author has done some rearch into what it's like to ride a horse, how medieval society works and so on rather than just another chainmail-and-fencing-foils mashup.

I like attention to detail too, but I think a lot of it should manifest through the lack of errors.

 

[Ursa major]

Whoops, sorry. I think the time for editing is past.

No need to worry: I've added the spoiler warning for you.

 

[rol7805]

I tried to read the Black Company by Glenn Cook recently and had to put it down because it was too dark. Not that the setting was too gritty or realistic, as others have said if there are interesting characters, a strong plot, etc. in such a setting it can be enjoyable. But the characters were all very dark and bleak, and the situations they faced were the same. I had no connection to them - there was no hint of hope or happiness to strive for. I read to escape and have fun, and I wasn't enjoying myself in that world and certainly had no desire to escape there.

I recently finished The Heroes by Joe Abercrombie and at first I thought it would be much the same. While it is gritty and realistic, and there are plenty of characters with flaws to make you hate them as much as like them, his pacing was well done, with interesting dialogue and characters who you saw their flaws, but also saw the potential for them to do good things (and often enough, they did).

 

[Randy M.]

[...] A book can be very grim and realistic - The Cruel Sea for instance - or gloomy and slightly morbid, like Gormenghast, but still brilliant. It's the lack of wit, in terms of either deft cleverness or humour, that's really depressing.

Just using this is an excuse to offer one of my favorite descriptive passages from Titus Groan since it illuminates the character of the inhabitants of Gormenghast with a sort of wry, sad humor [referring to the Cool Room}: "The room was perhaps the most homely and at the same time the most elegant in the castle. There were no shadows lurking in the corners. The whole feeling was of quiet and pleasing distinction, and when the afternoon sun lit up the lawns beyond the bay windows into a green-gold carpet, the room with its cooler tints became a place to linger in. It was seldom used."


Randy M.

 

[hitmouse]

I remember a history teacher pointing out that, in terms of realistic depictions of medieval life, the depiction of grubby peasants in Monty Python and the Holy Grail ("Help, I'm being oppressed") is much closer to the truth, and much funnier than the rather 2-dimensional Erroll Flynn-style Hollywood swashbuckler.

Good teacher he was.

 

[Anne Lyle]

There's a big difference, though, as others have said, between realism (people wearing worn and grubby clothes, disease and disfigurement being commonplace) and a moral darkness where every single character is vicious, corrupt or otherwise unpleasant and there is no hope and little humour. The former can still be a fun place to read about; the latter, not so much.

 

[j d worthington]

There's a big difference, though, as others have said, between realism (people wearing worn and grubby clothes, disease and disfigurement being commonplace) and a moral darkness where every single character is vicious, corrupt or otherwise unpleasant and there is no hope and little humour. The former can still be a fun place to read about; the latter, not so much.

Also, by and large, such a depiction is itself unrealistic. The human race -- let alone hamlets, villages, and towns -- would not have survived were such behavior the norm between people. It takes a good deal more willingness to encounter others with at least a fair degree of trust in order to allow things to work at all, let alone well enough to keep a community going....

 

[Grunkins]

There's a big difference, though, as others have said, between realism (people wearing worn and grubby clothes, disease and disfigurement being commonplace) and a moral darkness where every single character is vicious, corrupt or otherwise unpleasant and there is no hope and little humour. The former can still be a fun place to read about; the latter, not so much.

Well said. I think people confuse grimdark with verisimilitude when they are very different things.

 

[Toby Frost]

That may be the core of the whole argument. It reminds me of George Macdonald Fraser's WW2 memoirs, in which he and a bunch of other conscripts fight the Imphal-Kohima campaign. The fighting is savage and the enemy vicious, but the book is frequently quite funny. The soldiers joke and bicker continuously, do silly things and are very human, but are also very tough and dangerous when the fighting comes (and hence win).

What doesn't happen are passionate speeches about liberty, silent grim-jawed staring into the distance, sobbing promises of vengeance when anyone dies or any of the other cliched things "warriors" are supposed to do. No doubt this will upset people who go all giggly about Sparta (or, er, certain less salubrious armies), but it feels much more realistic. So, in short, there is more to depicting people in tough situations than the Gears of War trailer might have us believe...

 

[hitmouse]

That may be the core of the whole argument. It reminds me of George Macdonald Fraser's WW2 memoirs, in which he and a bunch of other conscripts fight the Imphal-Kohima campaign. The fighting is savage and the enemy vicious, but the book is frequently quite funny. The soldiers joke and bicker continuously, do silly things and are very human, but are also very tough and dangerous when the fighting comes (and hence win).

What doesn't happen are passionate speeches about liberty, silent grim-jawed staring into the distance, sobbing promises of vengeance when anyone dies or any of the other cliched things "warriors" are supposed to do. No doubt this will upset people who go all giggly about Sparta (or, er, certain less salubrious armies), but it feels much more realistic. So, in short, there is more to depicting people in tough situations than the Gears of War trailer might have us believe...

I (slightly) knew a retired soldier who had been very badly shot up in fighting in Burma in WWII quite close to Imphal-Kohima. He lived to tell the tale and subsequently had quite a successful career as an officer up to the 1970s, with a number of active engagements, no doubt dealing with some very horrible situations.

There was no moping, no pious speeches or anything like that. He was thoroughly good and humerous company. The record is of someone who was funny and irreverent throughout his life. He kept bees, grew tea, and had a comprehensive whisky collection which he was pleased to share.