Now that Moorcock's been mentioned, I did find him rather depressing. If you say there's an underlying hope there, I'll trust that it's there somewhere. But I didn't see it. Elric struck me as a rather ineffectual character because he was so angst ridden. That may have been part of Moorcock's point, but I didn't see any positive alternatives presented within the context of the book I read.
When fantasy is just too dark
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Nope, neither than I when I was reading about Corum.
I have to admit that I remember the ugly parts best, and a final impression -- at least at the end of the first book -- that men were playthings in the hands of cruel gods. Not many alternatives for the characters there.
But since you seem to remember the books more clearly, JD, maybe you can point out some parts of the story that actually offered hope.
Connavar
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What JD saying Moorcock sounds promising.
I can enjoy as much darkness,depressing,despair like story there is when there is atleast some positives.
I wasnt judging Moorcock totaly after one book. I just got the same impression from first Corum as Teresa . Being what cruel gods and their poor playthings. Specially Corum's race.
I can enjoy as much darkness,depressing,despair like story there is when there is atleast some positives.
I wasnt judging Moorcock totaly after one book. I just got the same impression from first Corum as Teresa . Being what cruel gods and their poor playthings. Specially Corum's race.
j d worthington
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Okay... there are some spoilers ahead.
For one thing, yes, that is a view Moorcock often takes where "gods" are concerned -- that they are much on the level of spoilt children a lot of the time, often quite vicious and brutal, and certainly the majority tend to be more concerned with asserting power and dominance than with any sort of benevolent (or just, for that matter) approach toward the beings who pay them obeisance. And both Elric and Corum slay their share of gods -- Corum destroys both the Sword Rulers and the more distorted, primitive gods of the Fhoi Moire, who have long outlived their usefulness yet cannot die naturally and fear death -- when, in fact, if they had gone when the time came, they would have been remembered with some honor and kindly sentiment as opposed to being viewed as monstrous, cruel, and bloodthirsty; while Elric slays both small gods and even threatens the Lords of Chaos -- and defies the Lords of Law at various points (the most important being in his conversation with Lord Donblas, the Justice Maker, where he forces even this austere being to acknowledge the essential truth of what he's saying).
As far as Elric (or Corum, for that matter, though to a lesser degree) -- part of the point with him is that he, like so many of Moorcock's "heroes" in his fantasies, is prone to give in to circumstances too often; either that, or to that more primitive, Melnibonéan tendency toward particularly malicious and cruel revenge. And each time he does, it costs him a little more, until finally he becomes entrapped in the role he originally fought so hard against. Yes, he suffers setbacks, but whenever he fights against that tendency, and tries to assert himself, he usually does make some changes... he alters the web of Fate, as it were. Corum is less vengeance-driven, but also tends to play out the role assigned to him rather than asserting his individuality; yet he does make strides....
And, don't forget, both these series are actually part of a much larger tale, where these themes are played out not only in more detail, but in a way that allows much more complex examinations of the ideas Moorcock is addressing. Elric's time, for instance, is called a "prelude" at one point, before the real play begins -- it serves as a more elaborate example of the theme Moorcock addresses from a different angle in The Rituals of Infinity. And, even in his failure and death, Elric manages to bring a little more justice, a little more sanity, and a little more rationality and kindness to the world -- albeit it will be the world that follows his, not his own.
Which, essentially, is the theme of the Eternal Champion cycle (and, to be honest, all of Moorcock's fictional work): the Eternal Struggle to achieve that balance between the individual and society, order and chaos, freedom and responsibility, cynicism and hope, romanticism and the realization of the richness of the "mundane" lives we lead, tradition and change, etc., and the dynamic tension and variety this never-ending struggle gives to life. As Moorcock notes, the steps we take toward true justice and an enlightened society are incremental, but each one is, in its own way, a small triumph.
Some of his books, of course, address the hopeful side of this more directly: The Blood Red Game, The Rituals of Infinity, The War Hound and the World's Pain, Mother London, Blood, most of the stories in The Time Dweller and Moorcock's Book of Martyrs, the Dancers at the End of Time books, The Dragon in the Sword, and so on. But practically all of his books address this idea in the text at various points, and certainly by implication. As I noted, this is the major theme of Moorcock's entire oeuvre, and the vision that (to me, at any rate) lends it its special place.
Incidentally, it is this I mean when I say that Ellison's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" is, in the end, a more positive story than is often realized. After all, even with what Ted is going to have to endure for eternity, they won. They defeated the God AM, by recovering their humanity; and part of the reason (it seems to me) that AM has done what he's done to Ted is to attempt to rob him of that humanity... but even so, Ted has the knowledge that they won, and so -- and again, for eternity -- has AM.
For one thing, yes, that is a view Moorcock often takes where "gods" are concerned -- that they are much on the level of spoilt children a lot of the time, often quite vicious and brutal, and certainly the majority tend to be more concerned with asserting power and dominance than with any sort of benevolent (or just, for that matter) approach toward the beings who pay them obeisance. And both Elric and Corum slay their share of gods -- Corum destroys both the Sword Rulers and the more distorted, primitive gods of the Fhoi Moire, who have long outlived their usefulness yet cannot die naturally and fear death -- when, in fact, if they had gone when the time came, they would have been remembered with some honor and kindly sentiment as opposed to being viewed as monstrous, cruel, and bloodthirsty; while Elric slays both small gods and even threatens the Lords of Chaos -- and defies the Lords of Law at various points (the most important being in his conversation with Lord Donblas, the Justice Maker, where he forces even this austere being to acknowledge the essential truth of what he's saying).
As far as Elric (or Corum, for that matter, though to a lesser degree) -- part of the point with him is that he, like so many of Moorcock's "heroes" in his fantasies, is prone to give in to circumstances too often; either that, or to that more primitive, Melnibonéan tendency toward particularly malicious and cruel revenge. And each time he does, it costs him a little more, until finally he becomes entrapped in the role he originally fought so hard against. Yes, he suffers setbacks, but whenever he fights against that tendency, and tries to assert himself, he usually does make some changes... he alters the web of Fate, as it were. Corum is less vengeance-driven, but also tends to play out the role assigned to him rather than asserting his individuality; yet he does make strides....
And, don't forget, both these series are actually part of a much larger tale, where these themes are played out not only in more detail, but in a way that allows much more complex examinations of the ideas Moorcock is addressing. Elric's time, for instance, is called a "prelude" at one point, before the real play begins -- it serves as a more elaborate example of the theme Moorcock addresses from a different angle in The Rituals of Infinity. And, even in his failure and death, Elric manages to bring a little more justice, a little more sanity, and a little more rationality and kindness to the world -- albeit it will be the world that follows his, not his own.
Which, essentially, is the theme of the Eternal Champion cycle (and, to be honest, all of Moorcock's fictional work): the Eternal Struggle to achieve that balance between the individual and society, order and chaos, freedom and responsibility, cynicism and hope, romanticism and the realization of the richness of the "mundane" lives we lead, tradition and change, etc., and the dynamic tension and variety this never-ending struggle gives to life. As Moorcock notes, the steps we take toward true justice and an enlightened society are incremental, but each one is, in its own way, a small triumph.
Some of his books, of course, address the hopeful side of this more directly: The Blood Red Game, The Rituals of Infinity, The War Hound and the World's Pain, Mother London, Blood, most of the stories in The Time Dweller and Moorcock's Book of Martyrs, the Dancers at the End of Time books, The Dragon in the Sword, and so on. But practically all of his books address this idea in the text at various points, and certainly by implication. As I noted, this is the major theme of Moorcock's entire oeuvre, and the vision that (to me, at any rate) lends it its special place.
Incidentally, it is this I mean when I say that Ellison's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" is, in the end, a more positive story than is often realized. After all, even with what Ted is going to have to endure for eternity, they won. They defeated the God AM, by recovering their humanity; and part of the reason (it seems to me) that AM has done what he's done to Ted is to attempt to rob him of that humanity... but even so, Ted has the knowledge that they won, and so -- and again, for eternity -- has AM.
I think you've pretty effectively reenforced my conviction that Moorcock's writing is far too dark for me.
ctg
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What do you guys think about Astrid Lindgren book The Brothers Lionheart, is it dark for the children who reads it?
Wiki says following,
Wiki says following,
The Brothers Lionheart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
j d worthington
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The thing is, of course, that while Elric doesn't learn this until too late, we see the Champion learn to assert his humanity more and more, with a consequent empowerment (though I hate using what has now become rather a trite word) and learning to celebrate, as I've said before, the richness of existence. Not that this is a simplistic, happily-ever-after sort of thing -- the struggle to create and maintain the things we value is, as I said, an eternal one which can never truly end... but it does carve out a more humane existence from the "chaos" of unconscious existence -- again, one of the main themes with Moorcock: that human beings have it in them to, through their efforts and their capacity to learn from their mistakes and bad choices, create a world (or even a universe) in which we can realize our noblest aspirations.
And, as I noted above, even though he himself is doomed, Elric triumphs in managing to establish at least some portion of these things for future humanity, where they didn't exist (or existed only sporadically -- chaotically, if you will) before.... I can't see this as depressing, myself; rather I see this as very optimistic and supportive of heroism, courage, and (in general) our humanity (using that term in its most positive sense).
*** Major Spoiler * Major Spoiler * Major Spoiler ***
And yet, even though Elric has largely rid the world of these domineering gods, thereby facilitating this human potential to realize one's destiny through choice, the final note played in the Elric saga (if I recall correctly) is the being that was the black sword Stormbringer, looking down at Elric's body and telling him that he was a thousand times more evil than Elric, then soaring away into the sky, laughing maniacally. Releasing the "Stealer of Souls" into this new world would hardly be the way to christen it if you're going to end on a "light" note, eh?
I agree with the heroism and courage, but any "human" aspect of the Melnibonean Elric as I read him was swallowed whole and consumed by his symbiotic reliance on the sword. In fact, I recall myself actually rooting for him to overcome his enemies without using the sword several times throughout the series, just to see if he could prove himself as his time's version of the Eternal Champion sans hellblade. While this did happen once or twice, it was always temporary as his doom dragged him back to the blade. The episodes of "celebrating the richness of existence" to me seemed few and far between. Accordingly, on the whole, I think we DO have to put Moorcock's Elric books in the "Dark" column.
And yet, even though Elric has largely rid the world of these domineering gods, thereby facilitating this human potential to realize one's destiny through choice, the final note played in the Elric saga (if I recall correctly) is the being that was the black sword Stormbringer, looking down at Elric's body and telling him that he was a thousand times more evil than Elric, then soaring away into the sky, laughing maniacally. Releasing the "Stealer of Souls" into this new world would hardly be the way to christen it if you're going to end on a "light" note, eh?
I agree with the heroism and courage, but any "human" aspect of the Melnibonean Elric as I read him was swallowed whole and consumed by his symbiotic reliance on the sword. In fact, I recall myself actually rooting for him to overcome his enemies without using the sword several times throughout the series, just to see if he could prove himself as his time's version of the Eternal Champion sans hellblade. While this did happen once or twice, it was always temporary as his doom dragged him back to the blade. The episodes of "celebrating the richness of existence" to me seemed few and far between. Accordingly, on the whole, I think we DO have to put Moorcock's Elric books in the "Dark" column.
ctg
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I don't know about what to think about the book, as it has been so long since I read it, but the beginning with the brothers death and ending with Jonathan death affected me. I cried at the end, but I still loved the story when I was child. Still I can say that it was much darker then her other books.
j d worthington
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Grimward: I don't argue against their being "dark" fantasy. And yes, Stormbringer does survive to go into the next cycle of the universe -- iirc, it is labeled as one of the few remaining chaotic elements to do so. And keep in mind that Moorcock's tales are allegories; one of the things Stormbringer represents is our tendency to revert to violence as an easy solution, when it is really very seldom any genuine solution at all; and, sadly, Elric certainly didn't overcome that one... but his actions did pave the way for others to eventually do so.
As for his "human side"... there are numerous examples of his growing humanity and his battle against that primitive, violent side of himself, just as there are of a strong element of innocence in Elric (in some ways). These, too, grow as the series went along, as he did begin to reassert his individuality despite his doom... so even there he won some small victories.
As for it ending on a "light" note -- I don't say that at all. But as part of the cycle itself, it contributes toward a much more hopeful resolution, and the Elric series itself is a small part of a much larger epic, and may be considered as some of the darker "chapters" in "the long tale of the Eternal Champion".
As for his "human side"... there are numerous examples of his growing humanity and his battle against that primitive, violent side of himself, just as there are of a strong element of innocence in Elric (in some ways). These, too, grow as the series went along, as he did begin to reassert his individuality despite his doom... so even there he won some small victories.
As for it ending on a "light" note -- I don't say that at all. But as part of the cycle itself, it contributes toward a much more hopeful resolution, and the Elric series itself is a small part of a much larger epic, and may be considered as some of the darker "chapters" in "the long tale of the Eternal Champion".
(A minor departure from the thread's main topic here...)
Regarding "the next cycle of the universe", I've never figured out Moorcock's timeline for the Eternal Champion (although I haven't really investigated this on-line, either, and probably should for my own curiousity). Which aspect of the Eternal Champion does Elric precede? Recalling in the one book (Sailor on the Seas of Fate?) how most/all of the other aspects showed up at one point and actually merged into one being to counter some threat that menaced the entire multi-verse, maybe they're mostly meant to be considered concurrently...?
(Returning thread to it's regularly scheduled topic!)
Regarding "the next cycle of the universe", I've never figured out Moorcock's timeline for the Eternal Champion (although I haven't really investigated this on-line, either, and probably should for my own curiousity). Which aspect of the Eternal Champion does Elric precede? Recalling in the one book (Sailor on the Seas of Fate?) how most/all of the other aspects showed up at one point and actually merged into one being to counter some threat that menaced the entire multi-verse, maybe they're mostly meant to be considered concurrently...?
(Returning thread to it's regularly scheduled topic!)
j d worthington
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Grimward: I'll attempt
to answer that convoluted question on the Moorcock subforum....***BEWARE A Song of Ice and Fire SPOILERS***
I don't know about dark, but I had a similar experience with Martin's ASoIaF. Bleak, might be a better word. When he killed off Robb and his mother, I just finished the book and dropped the series in disgust. I no longer had anyone to care about. I find butt-kicking babes too tiresome for words, which didn't really leave any characters for me to invest in. I wasn't going to sit around and wait for him to turn Jaime Lannister into a sympathetic character. Also, I found he really overplayed the "gotta make 'em hate Hate HATE' my bad guys." The Mountain was really over done. No, sorry, there are no supermen in the real world. Being 7' tall doesn't get you over a warhammer through the breastplate in the real world. And since that's where Martin is largely placing his rules - in the real world - it just got hokey after a while.
OOPS, sorry for the necro. I found this thread while running a search and didn't check the date. I always do this on new forums. :|
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I don't know about dark, but I had a similar experience with Martin's ASoIaF. Bleak, might be a better word. When he killed off Robb and his mother, I just finished the book and dropped the series in disgust. I no longer had anyone to care about. I find butt-kicking babes too tiresome for words, which didn't really leave any characters for me to invest in. I wasn't going to sit around and wait for him to turn Jaime Lannister into a sympathetic character. Also, I found he really overplayed the "gotta make 'em hate Hate HATE' my bad guys." The Mountain was really over done. No, sorry, there are no supermen in the real world. Being 7' tall doesn't get you over a warhammer through the breastplate in the real world. And since that's where Martin is largely placing his rules - in the real world - it just got hokey after a while.
OOPS, sorry for the necro. I found this thread while running a search and didn't check the date. I always do this on new forums. :|
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Galacticdefender
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The Warhammer 40,000 universe is pretty depressing and dark. Though That isn't really Fantasy. More of a cross between SF and fantasy.
chongjasmine
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I prefer fantasy that are not too dark in nature, and I like stories that have happy endings.
I do not like to see my favourite characters killed, in the end.
However, fantasy stories these days are 'darker' than before. There are many stories where the endings are far from happy.
I do not like to see my favourite characters killed, in the end.
However, fantasy stories these days are 'darker' than before. There are many stories where the endings are far from happy.
j d worthington
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On today's fantasy being darker or bleaker than earlier periods... I think I would seriously question that. If you look at the history of the field, you'll find a lot of grim and tragic tales as well, whether it be Howard, Wagner, Anderson, even Tolkien; not to mention many of the older writers. (You can't get much darker than Machen's The Three Impostors or several of Smith's tales of Zothique, for instance.)
And then there are always the fantasies of such as Harlan Ellison, in which darkness predominates....
And then there are always the fantasies of such as Harlan Ellison, in which darkness predominates....
hitmouse
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Not so. Plenty of classic fantasies have dark picaresque plots with conflicted antiheroic characters. Some of these are excellent and sometimes very funny.
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