Fitz and Molly

kauldron26

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crap-load of spoilers...


Fitz truly is an amazing character, I also love Molly to death. Not just because of who she is, but more because of what she was to Fitz. Fitz is probably my favorite character in all fiction. and the funny thing is that i hate him as much as i love him. i remember that there were some moments when i wanted to kill him because of his attitude and sometimes his complacency. the moment i hated fitz the most was the moment when he decided to let burrich and molly be together. which one of us can actually say that we could be that selfless? what greater sacrifice can there be than to literally sacrifice your emotion of love forever? is there a greater sacrifice than to give away the love of your life without a fight? and then to also sacrifice your life for people and concepts that you do not necessarily believe but solely out of duty? For Molly, King and country he sacrificed everything his life, love, body and soul.

the love story between Fitz and molly to me is one for the ages. what love is better than loving someone from when you were children till adults. loving someone regardless of distance, absence and tons upon tons of tragedies. i remember the second most heartbreaking scene in the six books that make up the legend of fitz. it takes place at the end of a fool's fate when fitz finally confronts molly and she forces him to tell her everything. when he tells her about seeing her and burrich first getting together she bursts into tears and tells him "see what a mess you have made of our lives” that line alone says so much about a tumult of complex emotions a river of tragedy and love. How much does she regret? What does she regret? What exactly is or was the happiness she shared with burrich and fitz? What did it mean if one was based on deceit?


Can love and happiness be truly happiness if it is based on a lie? If the concept of a soul mate exists, can you truly ever love someone else besides them? That person you loved truly and deeply from back in the day, you aren’t with them anymore, yet your with someone else even though you never stopped loving them. Does that mean that the “love” you share with the person you’re with now isn’t as strong or as real? Is it wrong to be with someone you don’t love as much as someone else? What does it do to your soul when you settle with someone out of convenience? These questions and multiple others plagued me all through farseer and tawny man. Robin Hobb is a damn genius.



Is there any way that fitz and molly's relationship was just a teenage romance? Was it just hormones? i've never understood that part of what Kettle said. if anything i believe she said that so he would devote himself to helping verity without distractions. Molly was the center of his life... all the predictions said that the love of his life wound through and through his life at different times. they met when they were 6, enjoying childhood together, playing and fighting. They got separated after burrich moved to buckeep at 10, met again when they were 13 at the market, got separated at 16 when fitz thought she was getting married to someone else. Look at how fitz took it when he saw her with another man, he had gotten a basket of roses planned a whole picnic for both of them yet he did not even understand what he felt for her until he saw her with another man. She loved him and he had no idea. He was so broken that he went got extremely effed up and then became an assassin in full believing that he had nothing to lose.


Even then, knowing that he might never see her again, his soul still searched for her unknowingly through skilling even when his talent was ravaged, damaged and destroyed. At 18 she was his sole motivation to come back to buckeep. He wanted to find her and save her. Just for him to come home and see her as a maid. They were only truly together fully for 2 years. And those 2 years were full of as much pain and pleasure. Another great line “I hope I hunt you in your dreams as u have in mine” and the absolutely hilarious one from verity “who the hell is lady red skirts” lmao. And then that ridiculously powerful scene when he breaks down in front of patience and says that if he cant be with molly he has absolutely no reason to live. after the first night they made love she said "know that regardless of what the king says, i am your wife now and forever". And then they were forever separated at 20.


if u take away molly there is no fitz because he wouldnt have any motivation or reason to do anything. why did he end up motivated to become a full assassin and go to the mountains in AA? because he thought molly was cheating on him. why was he trying to please shrewd in RA? to protect molly and to marry her. why did he want to kill regal in AQ? to protect molly. why did he want to find the elderlings by choice and not verity? to protect his and mollys daughter. why was he in hiding for 15 years? to protect molly. why did he come back to buckeep? to protect his son and his and molly's daughter. why did he improvise a half assed coterie? to prevent his and molly's daughter from coming to court. thus molly is important as hell. His love for Molly was so infinite, I remember when Night eyes who knew him more than anyone was making peace with the fact that he would have to leave them so they could be together to start a family. Nighteyes was not willing to impede on his love for molly.

Even through 15 years of separation burrich admitted that he knew she never stopped loving him, and how she used to cry when she looked at nettle sometimes. molly and fitz got together again at 36, finally getting married for real at 40. if that is not true love through thick and thin... through injuries, seperation, threats, dragons, intrigue, war, life and death. staying together when they knew their love was doomed. then i dont know what love is. their love was real. she was his first friend, center of his life and his sole motivation for most if not all of the choices he made.? they were meant to be together.

when nighteyes died, Fitz was depressed and broken, he learned to live with it. when the fool "died" fitz was determined to bring him back. if Molly had died, Fitz wouldnt have done any of those things. He simply would have just killed himself. simple. she was the only reason he kept on living those 15 years. She was the only reason he lived after he came back from the mountains in RA. think about it when he found out he couldnt be with molly, he practically gave half of his soul to girl on a dragon. how is that teenage burning love? he literally gave half of his soul away because he lost her. It was too much of a loss to bear that he had to give away his faculties so he could somehow find a way to live. imagine what he would have done if she died. he would have crossed heaven and hell. i dont know why but their love story really affected more than anything love in all of fiction, more than i can explain or understand. their story is the very embodiment of how much life and love can suck to the core, yet show that the darkness always passes. when he was finally married and settled with Molly all he could say was " I am content". 3 little words that weigh more than atlas could bare.


Thank you Robin Hobb. Thank you.
 
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the_faery_queen

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i don't agree with that at all. i don't think he would have killed himself. i think that he had feelings for her, yes. but i doubt they would have led to that because his feeling of duty for other people would have gotten in the way. looking after hap, for instance, or even looking after molly's kids, if burrich wasn't around. i don't think his love would ever call for him to kill himself.

and i disagree that he did what he did because of molly. he did what he did because of his duty. if it was molly that had driven him, he would have quit. he would have gone to her, he would have stayed with her, when she wanted to leave him when she found out he was pregnant, run away with her, as she asked him to. he didn't because his duty came first. that was the point, he sacrificed everything for his duty, and in the end, he was rewarded WITH molly. but she certainly wasn't what drove him.

and the fact he dreamed about her as a kid is nothing more than what most people do when they fancy someone. that he sought her out as an adult doesn't mean anything really either. he is the catylst. as someone told me, a catyslt doesn't change. that's the point of it. it causes other things to change, but doesn't itself. fitz loved molly all his life because he couldn't NOT love her because it wasn't in him to change. but i believe if his love was that great and all powerful where he would have died if she had died, he wouldn't have even THOUGHT about sleeping with anyone else. he would have known true romantic whatever love with molly, and not want to just have physical release with someone else. thats my idea of romance, at least. that he could sleep with other women is a sign to me that his love for her wasn't to the end of time and wouldn't lead him to die, sort of thing. and having a few dreams and wanting to find her again after what he'd been tyhrough is only what a typical boy of his age would do. it's not proof of anything. if anything it just shows fitz can't move on. he, and molly, both cling to what they had as kids, their idea of love, and nothing could compare to that as they got older, so they both went back to each other when they could.

and being content? that's not really being happy. to me that shows that he misses having a wolf bond brother, and he misses the fool. he is ok, he is fine with what he has. he is content. but he is not over the moon happy. he is just ok, and that because everything else that he had, his wolf, his friend, meant a lot to him as well and without them, there is something missing from him.

i don't see molly and fitz as that great a romance. i see it as immature, idealistic and nonchanging. glad they end up together, she's not as annoying as i remember her being on the second read, but i don't see it as the be all and end all. i certainly didn't care if they got together in the end, not the way i have about other characters in other books.
 

jackokent

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I hate Molly. She's always moaning. I think Fitz should have ditched her for the fool.
 

the_faery_queen

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she annoyed me less the second time i read the series, to be honest. but yeah, fool any day. gay loving :)
 

jackokent

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she annoyed me less the second time i read the series, to be honest. but yeah, fool any day. gay loving :)
Any loving compared to moaning Molly! I don't think she loved him anyway. Fitz had to do all the running. It's like he was always in the dog house. OK so he wasn't perfect but he didn't exactly have an easy life and someone who loved him might have been a tad more understanding.
 

the_faery_queen

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see the other thread (fitz and molly) for my thoughts but yeah, i don't think she loved him so much as needed him. she just needed anyone really, hence why she went off with burrich at the first oppotunity, and fitz in the first place. first guy to come along, she was there. and yeah, she wasn't understanding. ok she was young, and she had a point that duty did come first, but she moved on very fast, she kept secrets of her own, and i think it was need that drove her more than love. the very reason she came to buckkeep was need, she had no home, she had no where else to go. she thought they were courting, but they hadn't done anything and she hadn't thought to check, it was all in her head, what she wanted, what she thought was happening, how she thought it should be.
 

kauldron26

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~sigh~ o well... just sharing my $0.02 wasnt trying to debate. this brotha is tapped out. everything is relative. to each his own. ive said all i can say about them. molly married burrich out of convenience. the damn king was trying to kill her and she was pregnant with no one to look after her, or protect her. she believed the love of her life was dead. who better to take care of her than the closest man to him? Hobb has said that altho molly was "older" by two years fitz real age was never confirmed because of his origins and that they might have well been the same age. especially when you do the math of when chivalry was up there with the mountain woman.

im getting tired of this fitz and fool nonsense. the fool was all up on him, but fitz clearly didnt feel that way. he liked the fool as a brother, as a friend. Molly was were his heart was, its why the fool took him back to girl on a dragon to give him back a part of his soul. where is this fitz and fool thing come from any way, fitz was adamant he didnt like him like that. ur willing to hate on the woman fitz loved but u guys are all up on him loving another dude when he stated time and time again that wasnt even how it was and he didnt like him like that??? wtf... its like finding out your best friend is gay and he's been inlove with you for so long how would that not make fitz uncomfortable. its even bound to ruin a friendship and it did theirs. it would make any straight man uncomfortable. he established time and time again that he didnt like him like that, the fool knew it too. fitz did not swing that way. the fool knew he loved only molly. after losing molly fitz was literally incapable of love. Well the fact is, Hobb knows her characters more than any of us ever will. she knew what fitz wanted more than anything else in the world. when he finally got it, he was content.



in the end everything is relative.
 
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the_faery_queen

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actually, that's not always true. writers don't always know what's best for their characters. they know what they want for their characters. i read the liveships and felt a lot of what happened there was forced on everyone, it wasn't what they wanted, it wasn't what they would have realistically chosen, going with who robin hobb had made them to be (althea being pregnant mostly) and i think that's true of this. she wanted the fitz and molly thing, and that's what happened. that's even why she killed burrich off, the same way she did kyle in liveshops, to give a happy ending to other characters, not because it made sense for the book or was realistic.

the fitz and fool thing comes out, msotly, through the tawny man. through the sacrifices the fool made for fitz, for the understanding he gave, unconditional love. molly didn't have that. she HAD conditions. she wanted fitz with her, she didn't like the wit. she didn't want to share him. the fool had a true, open, sacrificing love for fitz. and that was the shame of it, that fitz was hung up on the fact he was male. it's all plumbing, the fool said, and it's true. it IS just plumbing, and fitz realised that later. he told hap he loved him, and hap was embarrassed but eventually realised, as fitz did, that there's no shame in loving other men. fitz just couldn't get beyond the plumbing to have a physical relationship with the fool, btu i have no doubt he loved him and if the fool had been female, they would have been together.

sorry, i know you're hung up on molly and fitz, but to me it's not true love. it's not a proper loving relationship. she had conditions on hinm. she demanded too much and she just didn't get him. the fool did. kettricken did. he was better off with either of those.
 

kauldron26

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well u dont think fitz loved the fool like that. i think it was more than plumbing. he loved him the way he loved nighteyes, but different. isnt the love of friendship fundamentally different than the love for a partner? didnt he say in the ending how the fool was his greatest/closest friend? they might have well been brothers, it wasnt about the plumbing, it was about perception of love.

[FONT=&quot]I think that when the Fool last visited Chade, he was on his way south, back to their schooling place to bring home all they had learned. I doubt he will come back this way again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Ours was a ragged and uneven parting. Each of us had intended to see the other again. Each of us had had final words to say. My days with the Fool ended like a half-played game of Stones, the outcome poised and uncertain, possibilities hovering. Sometimes it seemed to me a cruelty that so much was unresolved between us; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I miss him often, but in the same way that I miss Nighteyes. I know that such a one will not come again. I count myself fortunate for what I had of them. I do not think I will ever Wit-bond again, or know such a friendship as I had with the Fool. I have Molly and she is enough for me, and more.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I am content.[/FONT]
 

the_faery_queen

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again, content doesn't mean happy. content means ok. and that he thinks he is happy with molly, and is, doesn't mean that he was better off with her, as i said. and it doesn't mean that their love was perfect. no one is denying that they are happy together, what im denying is:
that he would die for her
that they were best suited.
that their love was that perfect

and the fact fitz can't get beyond the plumbing is a flawe in him. it IS just plumbing. and it was more than friendship love with the fool. you can have deep, total love, teh same way you do for a partner WITHOUT sex. the idea that sex = love is wrong. sex often fades, stops and dies but that doesn't mean you love that person any less. but the fool couldn't see beyond the physical epxression of love, of sex, to realise that. many people can't, but it's true. you can have love, without sex. and not jsut friendship love, but something deeper than that. what he had with molly was more physical than anything else. she wasn't right for him, but he couldn't see that. it was lust and need that drove him to her, rather than them being compatable or right for each other. because tho they got on, made each other happy, she wasn't right for him. she didn't love him unconditionally, it was deep, true romantic love.

burrciuh had that for patience, i think. which is why he didn't do anything with her. because he knew it would be unfair. but i donot' think fitz or molly had that for each other. it was a selfish union, it wasn't a self sacrificing unity. there's nothing wrong with what they had. there's nothing wrong in saying they had deep feelings for each other, but i contest it wasn't the, i will die for oyu, our souls belong together, thing that you seemed to imply because she moved on when she thought he was dead. he slept around. and she never loved him for who he was, the good and the bad. she loved her idea of what he should be
 

Overread

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I would say that most real love has strings attached. Molly does not want the wit - that is the practicle side speaking, the side that tells her that to live with this man will have pains attached; that she won't be first in his heart, that there will always be the risk of being discovered killed.
Remember that the wit at the start of the series is seen as one of the most evil things to have - and being with one who is witted could easily lead to not only her death, but the death any children as well. Molly cannot agree to love a person with this string attached to them, with the risk that every day she must look over her shoulder in fear.
True, real love has give and take and whilst I will agree that Molly tends to take more than give in many situations, Fitz is one who in turn wants to give - though he often as not gets it wrong, he is prepared to give - thus between them they can function as a couple.
Further, Molly only has (from memory here) a short time to learn that Fitz has the wit and that she is also with child - a part of her at this time was rebelling against what was real - childish in truth, but also understandable.

I would argue that what Fitz had for Molly was more than just lust for a female body - he had that in Starling and the other woman as well - yet he swang back to Molly in the end for something more than just the bedroom - remember the second time around she had the added burden of not only his child Nettle, but also Burrich's children as well.
 

kauldron26

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[FONT=&quot]@overread, c'mon man it was definitely more than sex, he gave part of his soul to girl on a dragon because he could not bare the loss of her. why else would he do that? also remember he was only with those other women when he lost that part of his soul that was capable of love.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot] “I see.” And I did. I suddenly saw that Molly was no longer someone’s daughter, to be whisked off from her father’s house and become mine. She was the center of a world here, with roots and ties

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]“Life is complicated, isn’t it?” she said to my silence.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I looked at her, in her simple, somber-hued robe. Her hands were no longer smooth and slender; there were lines in her face that had not been there when she was mine. Her body had softened and rounded with the years. She was no longer the girl in the red skirts, running down the beach before me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “I have never wanted anything so much in my life as I’ve always wanted you.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “Fitz!” she exclaimed, glancing up at the loft, and I suddenly realized I had spoken the words aloud. Her cheeks glowed and she lifted both hands to cover her mouth with her fingertips.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “I’m sorry,” I said. “I know it’s too soon. You’ve told me that. And I will wait. I’ll wait however long you want me to wait. I just want to be sure you know that I am waiting.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] I saw her swallow. She said huskily, “I don’t know how long it will take.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “It doesn’t matter.” I stretched out my hand, palm up, on the tabletop. She hesitated, and then set hers in it. And we sat, not speaking, until the boys came in with a load of snowy kindling to be scolded by their mother for not wiping their feet.[/FONT]
 

jackokent

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I don't blame Molly for marrying Burrich, as you say Kauldron, she didn't exactly have a lot of choice. And I also believe Fitz loved her and for him it was far more than just sex.

What I didn't like was the constant hard time she seemed to give him. That's what made me think, what's wrong with this woman. Fitz didn't seem to get an ounce of compassion or understanding from her... she was just such hard work.
 

Overread

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Sorry - I worded that last part rather harshly. What I mean to say was in counter to queens post about Fitz's relationship with Molly being mostly about the plumbing and not having depth.
If it had no depth past the plumbing then he would have been content with the other women in his life - and not gone back to molly. I don't think that in any case Fitz simple saw women for their bodies and he shared a part of his life with each of them; but in the end he wanted to share the greatest part of his life with Molly.
That make more sense? and you have the advantage over me, not only with memory (prompted by recent reading) but also access to source matrail.
 

kauldron26

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all in all, molly was in no way perfect. in fact like fitz i hate her as much as i love her because what she did was damn near unforgivable. i know for a fact if i was fitz i could never forgive her or see past what she did. yet Fitz could and did. the same way she could forgive him for choosing his king and duty over her after breaking his promises to her. yet regardless of both mistakes and tragedies it just awes me that through 15 years, what they shared never faltered. all interpretations aside, opinions and preferences aside lets look at these facts. Think about it even after giving half of his soul, the specific part that loved molly, he still could never forget her or get past her. when he gave that very part to girl on a dragon. why? how much does that say about what molly meant to Fitz? And then even after molly believed him dead, married another man for 15 years had 5 children, 5 children! with another man, yet she still loved him through all that absence, and that same love never died and even burrich knew that. how much does that say that she loved a dead man who "abandoned" her with a baby, chose his duty over her, had the forbidden wit, was an assassin accused of killing the king, and then died in disgrace more than the man that gave her a family, a home, protection and 5 children? what does that say about fitz and molly? what does that say about what they shared? And then Fitz who is essentially writing his biography end's his story at the very point when he and molly are settled together. ofcourse he cant be perfectly happy look at how shitty his life has been. he cant go back in time. he is perfectly happy with what he has. he is satisfied. isnt that what it means to be content?

[FONT=&quot]"I have Molly and she is enough for me, and more. I am Content"[/FONT]

what does that line mean? more importantly what does the "more" mean. He loves her and she loves him. they are married and settled. what is the "more"?

i have been educated to focus on the lines in between, words unsaid, subtleties. i hope im not coming off as an asshole or bullheaded and i apologize if i am. i wrote a part of my senior psych thesis on the concept of love, sex, family and the psyche. And then when i read farseer and tawny man the characters of fitz and molly really just blew me away. the choices they made and what they seemingly felt and the tragedies/situations that brought them together and separated them floored and baffled me. it didnt seem logical or practical in my head. it went against my thesis. yet it occurred to me isnt that what love is? im not trying to convince anyone that they were soul mates or perfect for each other, i am just somewhat flabbergasted about how deep that bond they shared was. My focus is their relationship and why it was so powerful to both of them. why were they still drawn together regardless of ther imperfections, and characteristics. the tragedies and history was enough to keep them apart. in all reality Fitz could have been perfectly happy with Kettricken. she was and could have been everything he wanted in anyone. Yet Molly was all to him.

what does it take for you to willingly give away the love of your life to another man, and then relinquish that very love to girl on a dragon. most of all after losing the love of your life and giving the very emotion and core of the love to girl of a dragon, why didnt it go away?? what does it say about molly who loved a dead man that "abandoned" her with a baby, chose his duty over her, had the forbidden wit, was an assassin accused of killing the king, and then died in disgrace more than the man that gave her a family, a home, protection and 5 children? this is what is so profound about what they shared. im really enjoying discussing these insights.
 

the_faery_queen

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molly was a childhood crush. the boy couldn't grow up, or change, he was a cataylst, and his feelings for molly were just childhood crush feelings that couldn't change. i don't think it was real real love. im not saying he didn't love her, im debating the, it was great soul comanding, life sacrifcing love. and i never said it was just plumbing with molly. at least, that isn't what i meant, if that's how you took it. i think he did love her, but i think he couldn't see beyond plumbing to love the fool that way. that's what i meant. he can't see beyond plumbing to have realised that the fool was better for him. just as he couldn't see beyond duty to realise kettricken was also better for him. he gets far too hung up on things, and doesn't let go. and i think that's partly why he wanted molly. he was hung up on her and couldn't let go. he doesn't change. he is the catylst. he can't get beyond what makes him who he is to change, so he doesn't. he clings to everything that he had, reguardless of whether it's good for him. so he may have real feelings for molly, but WOULD he if he could change? I thinkj not. if he could get beyond this being stuck aspect, i think he wouldn't love her anymore, he would move on. but he can't, so he was stuck on her. that doesn't make it real true love. that makes it almost like a brainwashed true love. he loves her because he can't not love her. i guess you could say it was like someone stuck the idea in his head with skill, and now he's stuck with it, the same way galen was forced to worship chivalary. the feelings are real, on teh surface, and perhaps deeper, but it doesn't change the fact that, if, perhaps, he could change, he probably wouldn't have those feelings.

and im sorry, i still don't think the love was that deep. it was need, for molly. burrich was dead. she was alone. she went back to fitz because he was there and she never wanted to be on her own. it was why she went with him in the first place, first guy that came laong. the reason why she looked for him in the castle. it's need that drives molly. yes, she may have feelings for him, btu it's not all about love, it's about her need. and i have to say, that if she had loved him, she wouldn't have married burrich. i disagree that it was neccessary. he was looking after her already. she certainly wouldn't have had so many kids with him if she married him just to save nettle from being a bastard. she married him because she loved him. that she loved fitz as well doesn't change anything. she also loved burrich. she didn't love fitz as much as he loved her because fitz NEVER loved anyone else, never made a life with anyone else. and in my opinion, he loved her because he can't grow up enough to get beyond it. to me it's not the big deep love you seem to think it is, kauldron, it's a love of neccessity and childhood feelings.

and molly may not want the wit, but one of her children has it. her husband had it (burrich) he was also a drinker, something she hated. yet she overlooked that. she put ridiculous demands on fitz that makes me think she saw him in a childish way, making him be the sort of man she wanted, not the man that he was. and i think it's only after 15 years and 5 kids that she grew up enough to see beyond that to who he actually was. but still not enough to really let him be who he was. i still believe love in unconditional. he loved her without conditions. he didn't care that she wasn't noble, or had anything of her own. but she had nothing BUT conditions for him. she was unrealistic and unfair, selfish, really. and his love was more pure and giving, but that's cos i think he was hungup on the idea of her and couldn't get beyond it to the reality because the daft man can't really get beyond ANYTHING
 

kauldron26

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Different perspectives, different interpretations. everything is relative. agree to disagree. its all good.
 

the_faery_queen

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yep :) that's the good thing about a good, well written book :) people can discuss it. when a book is poo, no one cares about the motives :)
 

Shingetsu

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I wanted to be written into the book to kill Burrich when Fitz wathced Molly and him hug for the first time. 16 years Molly and Fitz could have been together, but had to be damn tragedy. It's not that I hate Burrich, just pissed me off. Though just as bad as Fitz anyways, he should have went back anyways. Molly would have taken him back. Of course Burrich would be shamed and would probably go off with a bottle or something. I'm just glad Hobb didn't wish to end the book with still torturing him. He married Molly, has a decent relationship with Nettle and with the rest of Molly's kids too. Lives at Withywoods and spends his time mainly with Molly.
 
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