Jon Snow's true parentage...

[Koopa]

In my vague foggy and often faulted recollection i think there is a mention in the books somewhere of Jon beating Robb at almost everyting they did. By it calculations or swordplay or ... .

Now that i've typed this, i'm almost certain i'm remembering it wrong.
In any case, we've not seen him truly fail yet, and his judgement of a situation (when not befuddled by emotions) seems to be the most sound of the Stark children.

PS: I added a kiwi bird to my avatar. I had to mention it

 

[Lofwyr]

Also how is he good at everything he tries? The only compliments I've heard Jon get are Ygritte saying he's good with his mouth *cough* which he probably learned from bawdy stories at Winterfell, and the second would be that he's good at fighting with a sword (+ all the combat related stuff), which is also because he was raised up at Winterfell where he had a master at arms to train him.
Maybe I'm not remembering something specific here but I only remember him being good at stuff which he put his heart to and was taught to do at Winterfell.

Smart enough to recognize the strengths and weaknesses in people. Able to teach people the sword instead of just swing it himself. Seems to be a pretty good tactician as well. Clever enough to move pieces in a game of thrones like manner (Sam with Mance's son in AFFC). GRRM doesn't blatantly spell it out, but Jon has met with success in just about everything he's tried.

 

[Ursa major]

Able to teach people the sword instead of just swing it himself.

When he first arrived at Castle Black, Jon used his training with a sword to bully and humiliate those who were learning from scratch, as Donal Noye pointed out. True, Jon then realised that he must help his future Brothers, but the insight was not his.

 

[Tansy]

ah but how many 15 year old boys recognise wisdom when they hear it? Does not a great leader surround themselves with great men and take what counsel they agree with

 

[Lofwyr]

When he first arrived at Castle Black, Jon used his training with a sword to bully and humiliate those who were learning from scratch, as Donal Noye pointed out. True, Jon then realised that he must help his future Brothers, but the insight was not his.

Yes...and? He wasn't being a bully because he enjoyed bullying the others but because he had a major advantage he didn't fully comprehend. Once it was brought to his attention he changed his ways.

 

[Ursa major]

But Lofwyr, you said

Able to teach people the sword instead of just swing it himself.

But just swinging it himself was precisely what he was doing before Donal Noye's intervention, as Jon himself came to realise. That's why he changed his behaviour. So he has the skill to teach, but had to learn, i.e. be told, that he should. (And yes, Tansy, that is good.)

As to the word, bully, I only used it because that's the word Donal Noye used. (My word was "humiliate".) And while Jon didn't think he was being a bully, that's how others saw him. When Jon's behaviour improved, most of his sparring partners reacted positively to the change (showing that they'd disliked his actions, not him).

 

[Boaz]

I've been thinking about ASOIAF again. I'm reading the series for the second time this year. 2004-2011 was the real high water mark for activity on the Chrons, but after 2011 the discussion began to really switch over to the HBO series. I did not discuss the show much and I'd like to remind everyone that this thread (and all others in this forum) are specifically for the books. There is a dedicated forum for the show.

SPOILER ALERT for Jon, his parents, his past and his future.

In a thread regarding GRRM's use of juxtaposition, I mused how Eddard's story was paralleled by Robb and Jon. Robb's story is eerily similar to Eddard's in circumstances. Jon's is a bit similar in circumstances, but even more so in character and appearance. And I read, in ASOS, how Tywin told Tyrion that he used the Westerlings to break Robb's alliance with the Freys. He said something like, "Jeyne is just like her mother and Robb is just like his father." As Lord Paramount of the Westerlands for thirty-five years and Hand of the King for over twenty years, he knows how to move people and happenings to his advantage. He's not Varys, but he's a major information broker. Jeyne seduced Robb and was able to arrange a familial/political alliance far far above her social status. We also know that her mother, Sybell Spicer, was a spice trader's daughter who also married far above her social stauts. So we are to conclude that by using sex, Jeyne is her mother's daughter.

But Tywin also compares Robb to Eddard. Already in a legally binding oath to marry a Frey, Robb took Jeyne Westerling's virginity. Feeling guilty about the stain upon Jeyne's honor, Robb bit the bullet and married her. He chose to accept the dishonor as the oathbreaker rather than dishonor Jeyne. And Tywin said he knew this would be the result. Is he a prophet? Is he a wizard? No, no. He claimed Robb is Eddard's son. So just like he knew secret information about Sybell Spicer Westerling, he must know secret information about Eddard Stark.

We know that Eddard was still paying the emotional and marital consequences of keeping his promises until he died. I've been wracking my brain on ways for Eddard to have married another woman duing the rebellion. I've tried to figure out how Eddard could have become a polygamist with Ashara or Wylla or someone else during the campaign. But if he had a woman in camp, wouldn't Robert have seen her? Robert said that he never saw Jon's mother. It has to Ashara or Wylla because they are the only two women linked to him either romantically or as Jon's mother.

We learn of Eddard's romance with Ashara Dayne from Meera and it's confirmed by Edric Dayne and BFS. This was at the tourney of Harrenhal, which we learn from Meera, Jaime and BFS.

And then I remembered the story Lord Borrell of Sisterton told Davos in ADWD. Eddard Stark took a fishing boat from the Vale to White Harbor days after Jon Arryn defied Aerys II. He was blown ashore of the Sisters by a storm. His guide was a fisherman's daughter. The two were secretly sent on to White Harbor where the girl gave birth to Eddard's *******.

Arya plays the lying game in the House of Black and White. And I think there is much truth to the Eddard and Ashara romance, Wylla nursing Jon, and Eddard passing through Sisterton with a woman... but there are lies (or incorrect information) as well.

Eddard told Robert that Jon's mother was Wylla. Edric told Arya that Jon's mother was Wylla. Edric knew this because he knew Wylla as his own wetnurse. If this is true, why did Eddard take Jon? He could have just left her with a sack of gold. Why did Eddard never tell Jon about Wylla? Jon has issues of self-esteem and identity (which Eddard is acutely aware) stemming from a complete lack of knowledge of his mother. Why did Eddard not just tell Catelyn that he got lonely on campaign? He could have told her this after Arya was born and they had a solid relationship. Eddard did pass through White Harbor with an unnamed girl... the Manderlys use W names... Wyman, Wendel, Wylis, Wynafryd, and Wylla. Yes, there's actually a Wylla Manderly. She's the little girl (Lord Wyman's grand daughter) who opposes the Frey alliance, in ADWD. There is also a House Wyl in Dorne. They are located in fairly close proximity to both the Tower of Joy (Lyanna's bed of blood) and Starfall (Ashara Dayne's home). Wylla could easily be name for girls born in the lands of House Wyl. I do not think Wylla is Jon's mother, but I'll state why below.

Ashara was romantically involved with Eddard according to both Meera Reed and Edric Dayne. The story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree is a favorite of Meera and Jojen. They are confused why Bran is not familiar with it. Edric, Ashara's twelve year old nephew and squire to Beric Dondarrion, expounds by saying Ashara and Eddard were deeply in love with each other. This offends Arya which leads Edric to explain who he is and that he can confirm this by knowing about Jon and Jon's mother. Arya and the Brotherhood all call him Ned and it can be inferred that Edric Dayne was actually named for Eddard Stark as there other Ed names, but no other Neds but these two.

So three women are romantically linked to Eddard from a year before to a year after his marriage to Catelyn. I don't have a strict chronology for the events from Harrenhal to Stannis' capture of Dragonstone. It may be as short as a year and a half to four years. And yet a few things must happen on a fairly tight time table. Robb and Jon are close in age, so Eddard needs to impregnate two women in a six month span. And as soon as Catelyn was able to travel after birthing Robb she took him to Winterfell... only to find Jon and a wet nurse already there.

After the tournament at Harrenhal, we know a rough chronology but not the time involved. Aerys II, Elia, and Ashara return to KL. Brandon's engagement to Catelyn is formally announced. Baelish challenges Brandon and is severely wounded. Lyanna and Rhaegar both disappear. Brandon, Elbert Arryn (Jon's nephew and heir) and Lord Rickard are arrested and executed. Aerys II demands Jon Arryn deliver Eddard and Robert Baratheon. Jon rebels. Eddard travels to the North. Robert travels to Storm's End. Robert deals with loyalist Storm Lords at Summerhall. Aerys II makes Jon Connington the Hand. Robert is defeated at Ashford. Mace Tyrells besieges Storm's End. Eddard raises the North and joins up with Jon Arryn who has finally dealt with his own loyalists. House Tully joins the rebellion. Jon Arryn marries Lysa Tully and Eddard Stark marries Catelyn Tully and the same day the Blackfish, Brynden Tully, renounces Hoster Tully and joins Jon Arryn. Catelyn conceives Robb. Jon Connington chases Robert to Stoney Sept and is defeated in the Battle of the Bells by Eddard Stark. Jon Connington is exiled by Aerys II. Chelsted named as new Hand. Jonothor Darry and BFS rally Connington's forces and return to KL. Gerold Hightower, LC of the KG, is sent to find Rhaegar. Rhaella and Viserys go to Dragonstone. Rhaegar emerges. Dorne sends ten thousand spears to KL. Rhaegar is slain at the Trident. Tywin sacks KL, Jaime slays Aerys II and Chelsted, and Eddard arrives at KL. Davos smuggles onions to Storm's End just before Eddard relieves the siege. Mace bends the knee. Eddard goes to the Tower of Joy. Lyanna, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Hightower, and five of Eddard's companions die. Eddard travels to Starfall and gives Dawn to the Daynes. Ashara commits suicide. Jon and a wetnurse arrive at Winterfell. Catelyn, Robb, and Maester Luwin arrive at Winterfell. Eddard arrives at Winterfell.

I know that's a lot and mostly irrelevant to Jon's origins, but we need a bit of knowledge of time and distances involved.

If Wylla is Jon's mother... If Wylla is connected to Dorne and Eddard did not go to Dorne until five or six months after Robb is conceived, then how did Jon and a wetnurse get from Starfall to Winterfell ahead of Catelyn? I don't think the logistics make sense. That would mean Wylla needs to be a woman met much earlier during the campaign. But if that was the case, why did Robert never see her? And if he did meet her in the Riverlands, why did she move to and remain in Dorne? I don't like Wylla the Dornishwoman nor Wylla the Riverwoman as Jon's mother.

What about Wylla as Manderly? If Jon's mother was a Northwoman, don't you think Catelyn, Jon, and Arya would have heard this rumor? By sheer proximity, Eddard could never have kept a lid on this.

The only Wylla that makes any sense for me would be a Valewoman. A Royce or a Waynwood. House Waynwood has five unnamed and unassociated daughters from this generation. If Wylla Waynwood was Jon's mother, he'd be Harry the Heir's cousin. Eddard lived in the Vale and knew many many people. And we know he traveled with a female companion (whom the Sistermen was romantically involved with Eddard) to White Harbor. I like this idea. Eddard had not yet married Catelyn and it's within six months or so of Robb's conception. I'm not saying this noblewoman from the Vale stayed in Dorne as a wetnurse under the name of Wylla. I don't know what happened to this Wylla Waynwood after Jon's birth.

If Ashara is Jon's mother... Just as with Wylla of Dorne, we need to overcome distance and time. I think there must have been close to or more than a year between the tournament and Robb's conception. So this means Eddard cannot have impregnated Ashara at Harrenhal. But if Ashara went to KL and Eddard to the Eyrie... how do we connect them? If we could get Eddard to KL or Ashara to the Eyrie or at least both of them to Gulltown or Maidenpool, then we'd have something.

In Eddard's chapters he remembers KL at the sack, he does not remember traveling to KL to secretly meet up with Ashara, but I guess it could be possible. It might be more possible that Ashara (the girl with the laughing eyes... might have had a touch of the wolf's blood in her... just another term for an adventurous spirit) made a surprise detour to the Vale on her journey from KL to Starfall. She was a lady in waiting to Princess Elia, so I assume she left Harrenhal for KL... but she was not at KL for the sack. She was at Starfall ahead of Eddard.

The way that Catelyn connects Ashara and Jon in her very second chapter, Meera's story, Edric's comments, and BFS' memory are all compelling to me, but I can't put Ashara in Eddard's arms within six months of Robb's conception. Eddard was traveling through a warzone and getting married.

And it just hit me this very moment! Jon climbed a mountain and had to fight to claim Ygritte. Robb stormed walls of the Crag to get Jeyne. So Eddard must have climbed and fought to claim his woman too. What if Ashara was trapped at Storm's End by the Redwyne fleet on her journey from KL? Eddard threatened to fight Mace and took her from the castle. Or what if Ashara was at the Tower of Joy with her brother? Ashara served in KL as a lady in waiting, so why not Lyanna too? If R+L did happen, then mayhaps Ashara went with them. This means Eddard fought and slew Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower to get Ashara. But again here we have the time problem of Ashara getting pregnant six months or more after Catelyn and still getting to Winterfell ahead of her.... it might work, but it's real close at best.

Okay... so mayhaps it did not hit me....

I just do not believe R+L=J. I did from 2003 to 2005, but after AFFC was released I needed a new equation. Sometime in 2006 I began to look at A+L=J. Personally, I like Aerys and Lyanna as Jon's parents as the best current option. Yet, now the similarities between Eddard, Robb, and Jon make me really wonder. Everyone who knew Eddard thinks Jon is his spitting image. I think Jon is Eddard's son... I just can't prove it.

 

[Boaz]

So here are my current thoughts... I'll italicize my theories while leaving facts in reglar print.

Rhaegar got Lord Whent to host a tournament in order to have an excuse to spend a few weeks with numerous lords of the Realm while finding partners for a coup d'etat. Rickard took his kids to the Harrenhal tourney. He wanted to make southern alliances according to Lady Dustin. Robert was secretly angered that Rhaegar crowned his fiancee as the Queen of Love and Beauty. Eddard and Ashara danced at least once, but fell madly in love. After the tourney, Brandon was announced as engaged to Catelyn but needed to go back to Winterfell with Rickard to prepare. Eddard went back to the Vale while Lyanna and Benjen were put into service as lady in waiting and squire for someone in KL. The plan was for them all to meet back up at Riverrun for Brandon and Catelyn's marriage. After that, they'd go either to Winterfell or Storm's End for Lyanna to marry Robert. Since Elia's health was fragile, she decided to stop a Maidenpool (the place with the magical healing spas) on the way back to KL. Maidenpool is also on Eddard's ride to the Vale, so he meets up with Ashara and they have sex. Eddard secretly marries Ashara (Tywin said Robb is Eddard's son), telling her that he'll get his father to agree.

At KL, Aerys II (according to Jaime, he raped Rhaella... and I think Joanna Lannister as well) developed a desire for Lyanna. Either to thwart Rhaegar's schemes or to fulfill TPTWP himself, I do not know. But we know that he felt amorous/predatory after burning someone. I think he raped Lyanna. Benjen discovered this. Knowing that if the story got out, there would be all out war between the North and the Crown with the probablility of the Starks going extinct... Lyanna begged Benjen to keep her secret... "Promise me, Ben." Missing Ashara, Eddard concocts a plan to visit her in KL and then escort Lyanna and Benjen to Riverrun. Eddard arrives to find out that Ashara is pregnant, in a panic he does not notice Lyanna's agitation. Lyanna claims to be too ill to travel, so Eddard and Ben take off to meet up with Rickard and Brandon.

Rhaegar finds out that Aerys II has raped Lyanna and swiftly, but not as quietly as he wanted, brings Lyanna and Ashara (another girl Aerys II might have designs upon) out of the castle. Dodging patrols and staying well out of sight, Rhaegar and his three most trusted confidantes, Jon Connington, Oswell Whent (a kinsman to the Lord of Harrenhal and probably their source of their secret communication), and Arthur Dayne (Ashara's brother and Rhaegar's best friend) escort the girls to Griffin's Roost (Connington's home). Just imagine if Aerys II had raped Ashara, then Arthur Freaking Dayne would have been the Kingslayer. So Rhaegar, knowing his father has passed the point of no return tries to secretly negotiate with Tywin Lannister (the man with the biggest grudge against Aerys II) because he cannot communicate with the Starks, the Martells, or the Daynes without spilling the beans. (This is how Tywin learned of Eddard's secret marriage.) Sensing that this may be a trap by Aerys II, Tywin refuses to commit. A year earlier at Harrenhal, Rhaegar was close to creating his cabal to overthrow Aerys II, but now he's isolated.

Hearing of Lyanna's disappearance, Brandon races to KL while Rickard sends Benjen to Winterfell and Eddard to the Eyrie. (Don't keep all your treasures in one place - Robb) Hearing of Eddard's and Brandon's executions, Eddard raises the North and Robert raises the Stormlands. Connington goes to KL to sound out the King and gets named Hand. (If Jon was born at Griffin's Roost, he'd be Jon Storm.) Rhaegar, Oswell, Arthur, Ashara, and Lyanna set out for the Tower of Joy. Gerold Hightower is sent to find Rhaegar. Robert fights the loyalist Stormlords, the Tyrells and the Redwynnes. Hoster Tully, knowing he's the key to the rebellion's success or failure, holds out in negotiations with Arryn and Stark. Eddard must have the Riverlands with him and not hostile in order to push south, so he agrees to Tully's demand that he fulfill the marriage pact even though Eddard is already married. Eddard thinks only he, Ashara, the septon, Arryn and Tully now the secret. Jon Arryn also agrees to marry Lysa though he was in negotiations with a known fertile widow... Arryn resents that Lysa is despoiled and dishonored. Jon marries Lysa and Eddard marries Catelyn. After fighting his entire life with Hoster, Brynden the Blackfish renounces his allegiance to the Tullys and joins the Arryns because of the shameless manipulation of Stark and Arryn. Catelyn is pregnant.

Gerold Hightower, the Commander of the KG, finds Rhaegar, but chooses to stay with Oswell and Arthur instead of returning to KL. Aerys II burns Lord Chelsted and rapes Rhaella. Rhaegar returns to KL and assumes leadership of the loyalists. Rhaella and Viserys flee to Dragonstone Rhaegar tells Jaime that he will change things (overthrow Aerys II come hell or high water) when he gets back. Robert kills Rhaegar. Jon Snow (Flowers should be his birth name, if he was born at the Tower of Joy) is born. Eddard arrives at KL, but cannot find Lyanna and Ashara. Eddard relives Storm's End, but cannot find his sister nor his first wife.

At the Tower of Joy, Eddard and his companions confront Gerold, Oswell, and Arthur. Arthur asks if Eddard broke his marriage vows to Ashara. A fight ensues. With only three men surviving, Howland Reed (a greenseer and possible warg) saves Eddard's life by mind controlling Arthur Dayne. Eddard finds Lyanna in her bed of blood and roses. Eddard apologizes to Ashara and she presents him with Jon. Arthur wakes up to find himself hog tied. Eddard, Ashara, Howland, and Arthur discuss how to resolve the situation and how to care for baby Jon and baby Aegon ("Promise me, Ned").

I'll call him Aegon 2, because Rhaegar and Elia had a son Aegon 1 who was killed by the Mountain. Arthur swears he was ordered to protect Lyanna and Aegon 2 and will never break his oath. Eddard says they must leave Westeros. A local woman, Wylla, is hired to nurse Aegon 2. The whole group (Arthur is in disguise) travels to Starfall (seat of House Dayne). Eddard and Ashara tell the Daynes that Arthur was slain and Eddard gives them Dawn as proof. Eddard says Wylla is his woman and he sends her and Jon to Winterfell. Ashara fakes her death from grief (no body was found) and travels to Pentos with Arthur and Aegon 2. (This is the story of Eddard stealing Ashara's baby that Cersei tells and the story of Ashara being Jon's mother that Catelyn hears.) Illyrio plans to have Arthur and Ashara raise Aegon 2 in secret, but like Willem Darry, Arthur catches some eastern disease and dies. Needing a new father figure for Aegon 2, Illyrio conconcts the plan for Connington to fake his death. Connington becomes Griff, Aegon 2 becomes young Griff, and Ashara becomes Lemore.

Wylla (now posing only as Jon's wetnurse) and Jon arrive at Winterfell. Catelyn, Robb, and Luwin arrive at Winterfell. Eddard has to deal with the Northern lords who remained loyal to Aerys II, chief among them is Jeor Mormont. Mormont takes the black instead of facing Ice. (Thorne and Rykker both chose the Wall instead of losing their heads. I think Smallwood, Mallister and maybe Tollett all made that choice.) Eddard returns to Winterfell to judge Benjen guilty of withholding the knowledge of Lyanna's rape and blames Benjen for Rickard's, Brandon's and Lyanna's deaths. Benjen takes the black. After Jon is weaned, Wylla returns to Starfall and Catelyn is none the wiser.

With an influx of Targaryen loyalist knights and lords in the NW, Jeor is elected commander over Wynton Stout.

 

[Ursa major]

Yet, now the similarities between Eddard, Robb, and Jon make me really wonder. Everyone who knew Eddard thinks Jon is his spitting image.

It's not entirely unusual for a nephew to resemble their (blood) uncle in various ways, e.g. in physical appearance and behaviour (the latter likely being reinforced when that uncle acts as a father figure to his nephew).

 

[Boaz]

I have three nephews. My brother has two boys and one is almost a doppleganger for my father (the resemblance is uncanny) and the other seems a duplicate of my brother. I'm 6'5" with dark brown hair and eyes. My sister's son could be Jaime Lannister's look alike or a poster boy for a Hitler Youth recruiting poster. Very fair skin, blond hair and blue eyes... but he's also 6'5". Genetics are mysteriously wonderful and bizarre little guys.

Anyway, thank you for putting up with that last post of mine. I've been thinking on this for more than a month... and for the last week, my brain kept running through ideas. Of course it' most likely incorrect... or at least three-fourths incorrect, but it was cathartic to get it out. I've gone to bed the last two nights without scenarios of Jon's parents turning over relentlessly in my brain.