Jon Snow's true parentage...

[Tonk Rivers]

Those who like symmetry look to the Fire (Daneys) and Ice (Jon) stories and see both characters are advised by a Mormont (Old Bear and Jorah) and a Targ (Viserys and Master Aemon)

My belief is that GRRM has a collection of possible outcomes for the story and hasn't particularly nailed them on yet. In that respect I embrace all theories, crackpot or not, so that I might better say "I told you so" when the series is complete circa 2024

 

[Culhwch]

I thought Martin had always had a fairly concrete end in mind, it was just the getting there that was variable...

 

[Boaz]

Tonk, you're onto something.... Dany has had confounding experiences with Quaithe, an enigmatic woman and Jon will have a frustrated conversation with Melisandre, the mysterious priestess of Rh'llor. Both Dany and Jon have lost their first loves... in fact, both were instrumental in the deaths of their loves. Both have super pets. Both have seen supernatural aspects of death.

 

[digs]

Both are sexy.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

Both rose from next to nothing to the pinnacle of power in their respective areas, generally separate from the "main" conflict in Westbros. Honestly, how can they not be related?

 

[The Imp]

I thought Martin had always had a fairly concrete end in mind, it was just the getting there that was variable...

GRRM has said (on more than one occasion) that he knows his starting point and final destination, but not necessarily every stop along the way, but he also thought that the series was going to be a trilogy, and that he wasn't going to add any POVs after AGOT. If he's going from New York to Los Angeles, he's taking detours to Juno, Seattle, Mexico City, etc. along the way, but he still knows where he wants to end up.

COuld someone confirm that he wasn't going to add POVs past AGOT please? I'm almost sure of that, and it strikes me now as being important as we move to ADWD.

 

[Tansy]

This may have already been discussed...

I was thinking about all the parallels in the series and when Jon switcheroos Mance's child for Gilly's wouldn't it be just like GRRM to have him find that that was done to him as a babe. Now we know Wylla is with the Dayne family as their wetnurse and Arya and few others know of the connection. What if Jon meets up with his "mother" only to find out the truth, or maybe she tells someone one her deathbed or some such. That her child was switched for another and he was actually the child of....

He can't be Ned's with Ashara Dayne can he? The timing is wrong, Brandon was still alive and promised to Cat at this when Ned fell for her and Jon was born after Robb, unless he returned there after teh battel of teh Trident to tell her of her brother's demise and it happened then or they came to Kings Landing then returned home where she killed herself, but would Ned break an Oath?

Would Rhaegar or Lyanna send their child to foster at the Dayne's to keep him safe or was Wylla in Kings Landing at this point? Just wondering how the Dayne's wetnurse got Jon as a son if she isn't his birth mother

Sorry this is a bit woolly but only half way through SOS and my memories of the events back then are a sparse lol, this reread might not have been a good idea, it's making me think too much Just re-reading the whole section with Arya meeting Beric's squire Ned Dayne and cutting him off at a vital point in his story jumped out more this time

 

[Boaz]

My biggest issue with the old switcheroo is that are stark physical differences between Edric Dayne and Jon Snow. Ned has eyes of blue, bordering on purple, and white-blonde hair, i.e. he has the Valyrian look. And Jon has dark grey eyes and brown hair. In fact, Jon looks more Stark than all of Catelyn's children... except for Arya.

I assume that the physical genes of the father are more dominant in the Seven Kingdoms than in our world. It's not just black prevailing over blonde, that happens in real life, too. It's that male Baratheon black prevails over female blonde every time. It's that male Targaryen silver prevails over female Martell black and all other female colors. I think GRRM is consistent in this. Thus if Eddard and Ashara had a child, it would have brown hair like Eddard... and if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, it would have the signature Targaryen silvery white. If Edric Dayne is Lyanna's child by Rhaegar, then either Eddard knew of this and chose to let his nephew stay in the south or else Eddard himself was the decieved party in the switch.

After reading "Promise me, Ned." I believe that Eddard would never have left Lyanna's son in the south while he brought her body to Winterfell. And I firmly believe that Eddard solemnly obeyed the sanctity of his marriage bed every day of his married life.

I think the reasoning here is solid... except for one glaring fact. Catelyn Tully's red prevailed over Eddard's brown four times out of five. This opens the door for Lyanna's brown triumphing over Rhaegar's white... It would have been interesting to see Jon father a child upon Ygritte.

 

[Ursa major]

I too have been re-reading AGOT, but though I'm about half-way through (just about to read to Tower of Joy dream), something has just struck me from Eddard's first chapter. (No, not Robert's war hammer.)

In the paragraph where Ned is reminiscing about finding Lyanna, there is this text, just after Lyanna has died:

After that, he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

First of all, they (plural), i.e. not just Howland Reed, found Ned. If so, there may be others who know the truth. Second, what is Ned not remembering? What he did, specifically, with the child (as opposed to knowing that he did do something)? Did he hide it for Howland to find it? Did he do nothing, so that "they" (or Howland on his own) found the child and Ned was given it later and told it was Lyanna's? Did Howland get there first before the other(s) that made up the "they"?

* Hopes TK knows the thread where this has been "resolved". *

 

[KrimzonStriker]

I believe Ned confirmed Bran's recollection about Arthur Dayne that only he and Howland were the only survivors of the battle, and even so just because Ned found Lyanna prior to this 'they', which could easily have been a slip in the editing, does not mean the battle was necessarily over by then. Not to mention Wylla who seems likely to be involved and may have been there, taking the fall for Jon's parentage in the aftermath, which I'm inclined to believe since she was also apparently a servant of House Dayne, Arthur's house need I remind everyone.

And as for Jon's appearance, I think if anything Ned's gene not prevailing in his other children would be a sign that Jon is not likely his, while it is remarked that Lyanna very much resembled what it was to look like a Stark. That Arya resembles Jon the most, and the numerous comparisons between her features and Lyanna is also very telling. And given the Targaryean inclination to breed with their closest relatives I don't know if we can really gauge the strength of their gene pool too much, Robert was also of their bloodline afterall and look at his black hair and byproduct of his seed...

Edit: Speaking of which, my appetite is now whetted for these supposed hints about Jon's parentage Publisher Weekly's review of A Dance with Dragon alluded too...

 

[Brian G Turner]

And as for Jon's appearance, I think if anything Ned's gene not prevailing in his other children would be a sign that Jon is not likely his, while it is remarked that Lyanna very much resembled what it was to look like a Stark. That Arya resembles Jon the most, and the numerous comparisons between her features and Lyanna is also very telling.

Indeed, it's almost like it's saying that the Stark look is strongest through the female line, though not completely dominant.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I like your thinking, Krimzon and Brian.

Let's see...of all of Ned's children, Arya and Jon look like him the most. This is assuming Jon is not someone else's son, by the way.
But if Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, then there are four Tullys (Tullies? ) versus one Stark. That would mean the female line is stronger.

Cersei's children are all blond, but this does not mean much since Jaime's also blond. We can't really gauge anything by going on them.

Robert's children are all blackhaired, so there the female line isn't of influence.

 

[hadd]

I like your thinking, Krimzon and Brian.

Let's see...of all of Ned's children, Arya and Jon look like him the most. This is assuming Jon is not someone else's son, by the way.
But if Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, then there are four Tullys (Tullies? ) versus one Stark. That would mean the female line is stronger.

Cersei's children are all blond, but this does not mean much since Jaime's also blond. We can't really gauge anything by going on them.

Robert's children are all blackhaired, so there the female line isn't of influence.

Well Robert's children are all black-haired because the "seed is strong" in the Baratheon line.

This does not apply for the Starks as obviously we have only Arya with the stereotypical Stark traits and Rob, Sansa, Bran and Rickon(?) who look more like stereotypical Tullys. Which of course can be pure chance too, as well...genetics are.

It would have been nice to have had Dany's son with Drogo as an example (purely for science of course).

I'd like to doubt that Jon's Rhaegar's son...I really don't see the "dragon" blood. If he were to be a true dragon he ought to have at least SOME Targaryen traits.

Would be handy to see that book now which Ned used to do research about Robert's lineage

 

[Koopa]

It has nothing to do with the seed being strong.
More like the Stark gene mostly gives way too the Tully gene. Whereas the Baratheon gene is predominant when in contact with the lannister gene.
It might be that Stark gene are predominant against any other genepool, and so on. Same for the Baratheons.

Probably the respected genes of the houses are rather strong to begin with, withing their respective territories. Since all the Great Houses seem to have been able to keep their appearances throughout hundreds/thousands of years.

 

[Eulalia]

I'm pretty sure that GRRM has not studied genetics, and in a story, well...he is the DNA penetrance master., and genes are expressed in a way that promotes the plot. Stark traits do seem to be throwbacks.

 

[KrimzonStriker]

I'd like to doubt that Jon's Rhaegar's son...I really don't see the "dragon" blood. If he were to be a true dragon he ought to have at least SOME Targaryen traits.

Physically he may be a Stark, but personality wise I often think that based on what little we know of the 'true' Rhaegar Jon's melancholy and aspirations to be something greater seem somewhat similar to Rhaegar's own attitude in the beginning. That and I think Jon carried a rather kingly aura sitting on the Iron Throne during that one Game of Thrones trailer

 

[Lofwyr]

It would have been nice to have had Dany's son with Drogo as an example (purely for science of course).

We do get a brief description of a potential Rhaego in AGoT. During the chapter in which Dany wakes to find Rhaego gone and Drogo a vegetable...during the dream portion at the beginning.

"Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds."

A fairly balanced blend of both parents.

I'd like to doubt that Jon's Rhaegar's son...I really don't see the "dragon" blood. If he were to be a true dragon he ought to have at least SOME Targaryen traits.

Physically he may be a Stark, but personality wise I often think that based on what little we know of the 'true' Rhaegar Jon's melancholy and aspirations to be something greater seem somewhat similar to Rhaegar's own attitude in the beginning. That and I think Jon carried a rather kingly aura sitting on the Iron Throne during that one Game of Thrones trailer

I'm with Krimzon on this. Jon has a lot of Stark physical appearances but his skills and disposition reflect Rhaegar. He's good at everything he tries and carries a lot of the mood Rhaegar was said to have. We can conveniently mistake that as Ned's influence because Ned seems to have a similar disposition...but it also can reflect Rhaegar.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Then the Stark gene would overrule the Targaryen side, if Jon's appearance is anything to go by. Lofwyr, I would like to reinforce your last paragraph with the following:
Arya looks the most like a Stark of all of Ned's children, but she is most certainly not good at everything. It is plainly stated that she can't do needlework, sucks at poetry, can't sing and so on.

 

[Koopa]

depends on what kind of needlework.
The knitting one, she was forced to do with her off-hand by that oaf of a septa. She's probably indeed not good at poetry or singing, then again she may just have been comparing herself to sansa. Who's good at that stuff.

 

[hadd]

Physically he may be a Stark, but personality wise I often think that based on what little we know of the 'true' Rhaegar Jon's melancholy and aspirations to be something greater seem somewhat similar to Rhaegar's own attitude in the beginning. That and I think Jon carried a rather kingly aura sitting on the Iron Throne during that one Game of Thrones trailer

Well I'm not surprised really looking at how Catelyn treated her most of the time (that s**t had probably been going on since Jon got to Winterfell). He just had mommy-issues, can't expect a child in such a surrounding to be too merry or can we?

To convince me I'd like to see him sing as good as Rhaegar, not be burnt by fire or at least have violet eyes.

Also how is he good at everything he tries? The only compliments I've heard Jon get are Ygritte saying he's good with his mouth *cough* which he probably learned from bawdy stories at Winterfell, and the second would be that he's good at fighting with a sword (+ all the combat related stuff), which is also because he was raised up at Winterfell where he had a master at arms to train him.
Maybe I'm not remembering something specific here but I only remember him being good at stuff which he put his heart to and was taught to do at Winterfell.