4.02: The Other Side

padders

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Although a WWII vet should understand the most what unjustified resentment can cause i would think
 

Cap'tCrash

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Cap'tCrash
I liked this episode for the action as well as the issues it brought up,Sam got to go kicking even Danny waded in as well! The TECH was good looking and would have seemed to help us if we had it.
Alar and Co were creepy far too insistant for my liking,Jack had his orders and followed them,Sam followed her CO,and Danny questioned everything and body.I thought the line 'Danny shut up' was fun.
The end was strange not like Jack at all,perhaps he went along the lines of a 'Splatting is too good for them'!!!
Roll on next week I say.
 

Abydos6

Confused? Totally!!
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This was one of my favourite eps so far, I loved the conflict and kept telling jack (yes i know its only the tv and he can't hear me), to listen to Daniel...
It just reminds me of how we all tend to overlook things, and maybe not want to know what really happened in different situations, insted we try to get what we can out of them before our eyes are opened...and i had a feeling as the leader begged to go with them, that jack was going to do something nasty, and I wasn't wrong...I may not agree with it...but he was a jerk! (not jack)
 

Cap'tCrash

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THANK YOU Aby,I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who yells instructions at the telly.Hubby's line is 'if you don't be quiet(or when it's really good stop sniviling) I'll turn it off'.
I agree this was a good ep.Nice to see our heros can make mistakes.But Jack did seem a little more harse than usual.
 

Texane

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Originally posted by archiver
MythingLink

I really enjoyed this episode in a couple of ways. One of those reasons is that it added a little more to the character of Jack O'Neill and I would like to see how they develop it as time goes on. Jack was almost willing to ignore the warnings that kept Daniel going in order to get the technology that the SGC had been striving to get for so long. To finally have someone willing to give it to them, must have been such a wonder for them and then to realize what the consequences would be if they accepted it must be leaving Jack feeling incredibly confused. "Fruit from the poisoned tree." was the thought that went through my head as I watched the episode.
Of course, this was directed by Peter DeLuise and he is one of my favorite directors for SG1. TPTB certainly found a jewel in him. I have enjoyed every episode he has had a hand in.
Confused, MythingLink? As a person with a number of military family members, past and present, I assure you. The word you are looking for is not confused. Irritated is it.
 

MythingLink

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Nope, confused not irritated. ;) Anyone with a conscience is going to run a gamut of emotions given the circumstances that were shown in this episode and confusion is going to be one of them. A strict military mindset when confronted with 'human' issues that need to be resolved will stop a person for a millisecond or two and make one wonder if they are taking the correct course of action if that person has a conscience at all (and we know Jack has one).

Also from someone who has a military background. ;)

Cheers,
 

Texane

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Originally posted by MythingLink
Nope, confused not irritated. ;) Anyone with a conscience is going to run a gamut of emotions given the circumstances that were shown in this episode and confusion is going to be one of them. A strict military mindset when confronted with 'human' issues that need to be resolved will stop a person for a millisecond or two and make one wonder if they are taking the correct course of action if that person has a conscience at all (and we know Jack has one).

Also from someone who has a military background. ;)

Cheers,
And that is why they call if science FICTION . . .
 

MythingLink

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Yep, fiction based on human frailty and strengths. Otherwise, I'm thinking, a lot of people wouldn't watch it. ;)

Cheers,
 

Texane

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Originally posted by MythingLink
Yep, fiction based on human frailty and strengths. Otherwise, I'm thinking, a lot of people wouldn't watch it. ;)

Cheers,
Clearly you haven't been to The Point, The Naval Academy, or The Pentagon lately. The people who have passed through those locations do NOT admit to the frailties you speak of.
 

MythingLink

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No one every admits to fraily ... certainly not the young soldier that took his own life at Ft. Campbell a month ago, or the soldier that tried to kill himself with a knife in the chapel at Camp Carrol, Korea two years ago, or the Captain that tried to hang himself in his room at Walter Reed Army Hospital, or the Sergeant that tried to jump from the roof of the same hospital. I don't suppose that the soldier who walked into WRAMC and shot two people would admit to frailty either. And definitely not the retired Master Sergeant who still hears the bombs in the night and talks about the young children he saw killed. None of them will admit to any kind of frailty because they're military and military have to be strong and brave. They can have no fear of dying or watching others die no matter the cause or the reason. Having feelings is for the weak. Expressing or relieving those feelings in a beneficial way is for the weak.

I'm sorry. I've watched so many strong, brave young men and women break simply because they were never taught to bend. Never allowed to bend. And there will be more, a lot more until the powers that be realize that in order to conquer those frailties or weaknesses, one must confront them but first one must admit that they are there.

Cheers,
 

Texane

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And the first enlisted man to make it all the way to the top, the first who made it to the Joint Chiefs, when a member of the press got interested and found out that the medals he was wearing were not actual "combat" metals. He then committed suicide; a great loss to the Navy.

I believe my opinion and yours are each side to the same coin.
 

MythingLink

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We each look at life through the same microscope ... the different magnifications are the different aspects we bring to it, different life experiences, different fundamental beliefs whether they be spiritual or humanitarian.

The military, in its wisdom, wants recruits who are just out of high school or college, who haven't had a chance to develop their own opinions very well or who haven't learned how to question authority reasonably or responsibly ... kids whose logic isn't fully developed. The idea being that they are still in the mindset of saying "Yes, ma,am" to Mom or to the profs making it easier to just transfer that over to "Yes, Drill Sergeant" and "Yes, sir."

Don't get me wrong. I'm military from way back and still am. I support the military in every way I can. However with every large organization, especially one basically dedicated to the art of war, there are going to be things that are inherently debilitating and those things are generally the things that take the longest to change.

I understand the rational behind the training, I can even concur with it, but there has to be a fall back and as it stands right now there isn't anywhere for these young men and women to go when they do start to question.

At the Critical Incident Stress Debriefing for the young man who calmly checked out his rifle and then took it to the barracks and set it up to blow a hole in his own chest the major problem, as seen by the other soldiers in this unit, was that it was damned inconsiderate of him. They had just returned from PT to find the body and now, none of them could get into the barracks to shower and clean up until the investigation was complete.

Now I know that this incident did hit some of those people incredibly hard, but they aren't going to show it ... they aren't going to talk about it because if they do, it's a sign of weakness and they'll be lambasted to death by their peers for it. And it's wrong.

No we don't need a touchy-feely military, but a little humanity, a little empathy, a little understanding would go a long way to making a more complete soldier.

Cheers,
 

Texane

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The entire issue has been interesting for me, too; close to home, actually. My uncle (like a father to me) is Army/Viet Nam. My cousin (baby brother) went to the Naval Academy, and is now an officer aboard his second nuc sub. During his tenure at the Academy, as he was the older student (?), it became his responsibility for a number of plebes and, of course, now a number of them were women. On top of that, he eventually became a justice on the Honor Court.

I watched my VERY stuffy cousin, brought up through my uncle's eyes and with his values, be required not only to learn respect for women (for those women who could pull their weight; none of our family, male or female, has any respect for women who can't) who had made it to the Academy, but also to stand up for them in the Honor Court, demanding fair treatment for all members.

I love Chuck dearly but I have to admit . . . my little brother has taught me respect for him that I didn't know I had.

Do you know how the press found out that women were going to be allowed to serve aboard the "new" Sea Wolf submarines?
 

MythingLink

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Do you know how the press found out that women were going to be allowed to serve aboard the "new" Sea Wolf submarines?
Haven't heard a word about that but it doesn't surprise me that the press might find out about something like that and then, of course, put their own spin on the issue.

Ah, women in the military ... another biggie of mine and I won't bore people with it. ;)

Cheers,
 

Texane

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Someone got a look at the blueprints - two different sets of bathrooms, one for the men, one for the women!
 

SGPflughaupt

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Heres my spin on the whole debate......
(having been raised military,been military,and now civilian.)

The military has its faults,granted,in regards to socialization but many of the same problems exist in the outside world (The ethics of Business). The military's faults,however,sometimes seem worse because they occur in an environment that, by necessity of the art of war, is more rigid or disciplined. How do you teach flexibility to a person that you might have to order to kill and must be able to expect him/her to follow that order? The morality and ethics of the military are more or less the same for the society in whole. The German Army (1930-1945) is a good example. The military reflected the societies belief in obedience to authority even when those actions were contrary to their morals. How did they deal with this conflict between the two? Denial. Most Germans ignored the rumors of atrocities and continued to support the Nazi's because they were in charge. Even the populace near the Extermination Camps did not look closely at what went on there and many were shocked or physically ill at what went on when the allies forced them to walk through the camps at the near end of the war and see for themselves the horror. During the Nuremburg trials the common defense was "I was ordered to do it". That was not so much a "cop out" of responisibly as it was the mindset of the army. Even today, the German society will follow authority and laws to the extent that the idea of crossing against the crosswalk sign even without any traffic doesnt easily occur to them. (This doesnt mean the Germans are so rigid that they dont question authority at times,there was even a german resistance during WWII).

For a military to function during war,for its members to get up and move under fire (a reasonable person would stay down :) ), and fire back with the intent to kill (we are all taught by society that killing is bad), they must have to some extent, blind obedience.

But the military is part of society and will reflect it in its structure and philosphy (read MEN IN ARMS by Preston,Wise,and Werner for a great discussion on the history of warfare and society from the Persians to the Cold War). This is reflected in areas such as what persons are permitted to service (Minorities and women) to what types of training are given (Our basic training for the infantry man is equal or greater than the special training countries like Iraq and Argentina give their special forces because these countries view troops as cannon fodder <IMO>)

Now back to your original programming.....
 

SGPflughaupt

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I've said my piece :)

probably is a good idea,though, to go to chitchat with this.

Back on topic....
I thought the ep showed how Jack,who in the beginning of the episode keeps telling Daniel to "shut up" is able to admit his error without ego getting in the way and continuing to blindly support alliance with the aliens.

It shows that though He might be stubborn at times, he does have a strong sense of ethics and that is probably where he becomes the most stubborn. If he thinks its the 'right' thing to do (defense of Earth,i.e weapons from the civilization of The Otherside or defending another race ,ie Scorched Earth) then it is hard to turn him.
 

Texane

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Not to mention having to listen to the last rap on the iris . . .
 
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