HH series evolution

[Vertigo]

I was thinking recently of some of the comments made about the more recent HH books; there's a lot of comments about the books feeling like they are more (or at least significantly) setting a big scene rather than being a complete story. And I wondered whether Weber hasn't painted himself into a bit of a corner writing-wise, and not of his own choosing at that. Now I've not read the last one yet so I may be completely off the mark, but here's what I was thinking:

As I understand it Weber originally intended Honor to be killed off and her daughter to continue the overall story, but ultimately, whether due to timescale changes coming from the Honorverse series or pressure from fans (or both), he ended up keeping her alive. It seems to me that this has forced a complete change in the story telling. Had he kept his original plan the focus of each story would have been around a relatively junior naval officer, as in the early HH books. This offers a lot of scope for the action writing he is so good at, with tight, complete adventures, whilst still keeping the overall bigger story rolling along.

However, by keeping Honor alive, she inevitably rises steadily higher in rank and assumes importance on a much bigger scale, one in which there is never really one complete story, in which all the stories merge into the much bigger story. So, in the earlier books the stories of Honor are set against the backdrop of the bigger political scene, whilst in the later books the backdrop has become the main story, and a much harder one to 'serialise' into idividual novels.

Any comments? As he frantically powers up his wedges.

An afterthought: I wonder if Weber felt a bit cheated of a good Saganami Island story...

 

[Timba]

I understand the point you are making Vertigo but I do not think it is as absolute as you picture it.
I was one of those who felt the last book was a bit of a setup and I believe I made that statement.

Having said that it also basically had nothing about HH and focused instead on Michelle Henke and her subordinates. Within that there were bits of action in the areas surrounding the latest admission to the Star Kingdom, the Talbot Cluster (I think) and just a bit of conversation about what might be going on at home. Almost all the scenes revolve around some of the relatively junior naval officers.

Thinking further about this I find myself wondering if I am projecting a bit when I say the book felt like it was setting the stage. Based on the reality that we all know the Mesa Alliance is in for a good old fashioned butt kicking and I, at least, am a bit anxious for that to happen, perhaps something else is going on.

It may just be that this sense of more to come is merely Weber taking his ability to exquisitely pace an individual book and keep you on the edge as the climax approaches and expanding that to pacing the series to the coming climax. Either way I am eagerly awaiting the next installment.

Incidentally, if memory serves and that is always an iffy proposition these days, I think Eric Flint may be responsible for HH remaining alive. It seems to me I saw a statement about that from Weber at some point.

 

[Vince W]

The latest books are definitely 'arcing'. We are getting complete stories that are part of a greater whole. While this may not be a bad thing in the end, I have felt somewhat less satisfied at the end of these books knowing that they are not complete.

While each book is still very enjoyable I do look forward to the ultimate resolution of this 'arc' and to see where HH goes from there.

 

[Vertigo]

Yeah I think my feelings are similar to VinceW's. And Timba, I agree, my statement was deliberately black and white Also I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing; I think I just have to come to the books with a slightly different perspective now than I did with the earlier ones. I do enjoy both action and political intrigue and, of course, Weber is a master at both, I think any problem I have (and it's only slight) is a tendency to pick up his HH books still expecting them to be like the early ones, and of course they have moved on.

With regard to the keeping alive of Honor, I have heard several versions. In a forword by Weber in one of his books (I can't for the life of me remember which) I remember him saying that it was partly his fans and partly the changed timeline from the Talbot Cluster books bringing things forward so Honor's daughter would not be old enough to partake in the final battle, as it were. What I think is interesting is to consider how different the books would have been had he killed Honor off and gone with her daughter. Though he would also have been in great danger of simply rewriting a remold of Honor; she would inevitably have been in the navy, commanding, with a tree cat...

So as I say I'm certainly not saying his original plan would have been better, but I do think that has affected the overall feel of the books. I think they have lost the intimacy of the early books when they were very much addressed from her POV.

To a lesser extent I think you can see a similar evolution in the Safehold books, though in their case they were always filled with political intrigue right from the first book. But again with those books the later books do seem to have focused more on the political intrigue with the writing being much less close to Merlin and Cayleb than it was in the first book(s).

 

[Parson]

Yeah I think my feelings are similar to VinceW's. And Timba, I agree, my statement was deliberately black and white Also I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing; I think I just have to come to the books with a slightly different perspective now than I did with the earlier ones. I do enjoy both action and political intrigue and, of course, Weber is a master at both, I think any problem I have (and it's only slight) is a tendency to pick up his HH books still expecting them to be like the early ones, and of course they have moved on.

With regard to the keeping alive of Honor, I have heard several versions. In a forword by Weber in one of his books (I can't for the life of me remember which) I remember him saying that it was partly his fans and partly the changed timeline from the Talbot Cluster books bringing things forward so Honor's daughter would not be old enough to partake in the final battle, as it were. What I think is interesting is to consider how different the books would have been had he killed Honor off and gone with her daughter. Though he would also have been in great danger of simply rewriting a remold of Honor; she would inevitably have been in the navy, commanding, with a tree cat...

This is a very good point and I've not thought about that before, but surely you are right here. The critics would have (likely) been loud and boisterous on that point. I agree with Timba, that H.H. is indeed becoming less the focal point of each book. The last one particularly which was more accurately a "Henke" book..

So as I say I'm certainly not saying his original plan would have been better, but I do think that has affected the overall feel of the books. I think they have lost the intimacy of the early books when they were very much addressed from her POV.

I would rather say that it's a combination of things. One not to be forgotten is that we now expect that there will be more to come and so don't read in quite the same way. Then there is Weber's sincere understanding that the next book will not likely be the last book and so perhaps unintentionally we don't get quite the climax that the original ones had. Several of them, I think particularly of my favorite "Field of Dishonor," left me feeling that there was no way Honor was ever going to recover and be the woman she was before. Many of the early books made more of Honor's recovering from the previous experience as the story went on.

To a lesser extent I think you can see a similar evolution in the Safehold books, though in their case they were always filled with political intrigue right from the first book. But again with those books the later books do seem to have focused more on the political intrigue with the writing being much less close to Merlin and Cayleb than it was in the first book(s).

This is also a good point. For some reason, I think it is the steam engine technology, I just can't get into this series quite like his space born ones. When Caleb and Merlin start attacking the temple proper and whatever/whoever is waiting there I might have more of a feeling that there is actually a conflict. Numbers should indicate something different, but I can't really believe that the temple without some "outside" help can really defeat Caleb with Merlin's assistance.

 

[Vertigo]

Actually you make a good point at the end there. Maybe one of the problems with the Safehold books is that Merlin is pretty much the ultimate deus ex machina, and I tend to feel that no one on Safehold really stands a chance against Cayleb with his total naval dominance and Merlin backing him up. I certainly enjoyed the earlier of these books a lot more than the later ones.

And you're also quite right Parson, reader expectation is a major factor and I suspect one of the problems with the HH series because of the way it has changed emphasis. I do really enjoy the kind of book that Weber is writing in the HH series now, but I just have to make sure I pick them up with that expectation.

 

[Vertigo]

Apologies for the double post but does anyone have any idea how many more books there are likely to be in the main story? Or is that a closely guarded secret, or simply unknown?

 

[Timba]

Apologies for the double post but does anyone have any idea how many more books there are likely to be in the main story? Or is that a closely guarded secret, or simply unknown?

Weber's homepage does not give a hint.

I noticed that the next book in the Safehold series, Like a Mighty Army, was supposed to be out in 09/13 and is not out yet so he appears to be a bit off schedule.

 

[Vertigo]

Ah well he's certainly more prolific than a lot of authors so I guess we can allow him a little slippage.

 

[Timba]

Ah well he's certainly more prolific than a lot of authors so I guess we can allow him a little slippage.

Well, okay, but just a little

 

[tinkerdan]

I can't speak much for the ones after War of Honor but I've read all those up to and that one several times.

David does not write his main character the typical way I usually expect to see them and he never has with Honor Harrington. Whenever David goes into her head she is mostly treated like a well oiled machine, excepting the times when she almost boarders on a whinny crybaby about her beauty and her regrets about everyone around her dying and of course when she loses both her mentor and then her lover, which can be understandable.

Otherwise the most descriptive elements about Honor come from the characters around her. (Many of these will eventually die.) Honor is described in the loyalty and the confidence that these people have in her.

If David were treating her like what I'm used to seeing and if he were following some prescribed norm we would have been introduced to Honor before she was a Captain. Most good protagonists are the ones who do not have the higher levels of command. Their story and struggles are much more intense and interesting-usually.

David's Honor stories are typically 50% Honor centered and 50% Military/Political buildup. of the 50% of Honor there might be 5 to 10 % that are directly in her head. Most of that time she's the well oiled machine.

That he altered his world by keeping Honor alive is probably minor in respect to all of this because the story is this long arc that has to do with the Military/Political buildup and evolution. That he's able to maintain the character of Honor to keep people involved is a testament to his genius because he clearly breaks a lot of rules readers expect a writer to abide by and he's done so from the start.

There might also be room to consider that sometimes the series takes on a life of its own and it might be that not killing Honor was as much because of that than it was anything else.

 

[Timba]

Just found this interview with Weber that sheds some light on the question of killing off Honor. It also covers a lot of other info and is pretty interesting.


DAVID WEBER: A Man Of Honor | SciFi4Me.com


A note of warning for Parson, there is a mention of darkness in this interview, would not want you to be taken by surprise.

 

[Siberian]

David does not write his main character the typical way I usually expect to see them and he never has with Honor Harrington. Whenever David goes into her head she is mostly treated like a well oiled machine,

I don't think I entirely agree. Weber chooses to concentrate on the professional lives of his characters much more than on their social/personal lives. When under stress, professionals let their instincts and ingrained skills to take over. That doesn't mean they don't feel fear or grief.

excepting the times when she almost boarders on a whinny crybaby about her beauty and her regrets about everyone around her dying and of course when she loses both her mentor and then her lover, which can be understandable.

So she has some insecurities and and can feel strong emotions - how does that make her a "whiny crybaby"?

If David were treating her like what I'm used to seeing and if he were following some prescribed norm we would have been introduced to Honor before she was a Captain.

Not necessarily. The first book about Horatio Hornblower features hims already in command of a ship. Then C.S.Forester when back and wrote more books about his early career. Weber did a similar thing, albeit in the case of Honor it's just stories in the anthologies rather than full novels.

 

[Timba]

For those keeping track here is what is coming up soon:


4 February, 2014 - Like A Mighty Army (Safehold)
For centuries, the world of Safehold, last redoubt of the human race, lay under the unchallenged rule of the Church of God Awaiting. The Church permitted nothing new—no new inventions, no new understandings of the world.

What no one knew was that the Church was an elaborate fraud—a high-tech system established by a rebel faction of Safehold’s founders, meant to keep humanity hidden from the powerful alien race that had destroyed old Earth.

Then awoke Merlin Athrawes, cybvernetic avatar of a warrior a thousand years dead, felled in the war in which Earth was lost. Monk, warrior, counselor to princes and kings, Merlyn has one purpose: to restart the history of the too-long-hidden human race.

And now the fight is thoroughly underway. The island empire of Charis has declared its independence from the Church, and with Merlyn’s help has vaulted forward into a new age of steam-powered efficiency. Fending off the wounded Church, Charis has drawn more and more of the countries of Safehold to the cause of independence and self-determination. But at a heavy cost in bloodshed and loss—a cost felt by nobody more keenly that Merlyn Athrawes.

The wounded Church is regrouping. Its armies and resources are vast. The fight for humanity’s future isn’t over, and won’t be over soon…
David Weber’s Like a Mighty Army is the hotly anticipated seventh volume in the New York Times bestselling Safehold series.

1 April, 2014 -Cauldron of Ghosts (Crown of Slaves), with Eric Flint

Sequel to national bestsellers Torch of Freedom and Crown of Slaves, Book Three in the Crown of Slaves, - Honor Harrington universe. Secret agent Anton Zilwicki and Victor Cachat return in this classic tie-in series set in David Weber's Honorverse.

TOIL AND TROUBLE IN THE CAULDRON OF GHOSTS

The Mesan Alignment: a centuries-old cabal that seeks to impose its vision of a society dominated by genetic rank onto the human race. Now the conspiracy stands exposed by spies Anton Zilwicki and Victor Cachat—one an agent of Honor Harrington’s Star Kingdom of Manticore, the other a Havenite operative. The outing of the Alignment has turned the galaxy’s political framework topsy-turvy. Old coalitions have disintegrated. New alliances have been born.

For starters, the long and hard-fought war between the Republic of Haven and the Star Empire of Manticore is not only over, but these bitter enemies have formed a new pact. Their common foe: the Mesan Alignment itself.

But more information is needed to bring the Alignment out of the shadows. Now, defying the odds and relying on genetic wizardry themselves for a disguise, Zilwicki and Cachat return to Mesa—only to discover that even they have underestimated the Alignment’s ruthlessness and savagery.

Soon they are on the run in Mesa’s underworld, not only hunted by the Alignment but threatened by the exploding conflict on the planet between Mesa’s overlords and the brutalized slaves and descendants of slaves who have suffered under their rule for so long. But if Zilwicki and Cachat succeed in rooting out the ancient conspiracy, a great evil may be finally removed from the galaxy—and on a long-oppressed planet, freedom may finally dawn.

 

[Siberian]

Zilwicki and Cachat should get married.

 

[Timba]

Zilwicki and Cachat should get married.

LOL, I really love both characters but neither of them seems to bat from that side of the plate.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Actually I was getting more and more bored with the series after Flag in Exile and hadn't read a bunch of them

Then I read Mission of Honor and had to go back 2 or 3 books to find out what was going on. I don't mind it being less focused on Honor, in fact I think it is probably a good thing. But I wonder if this is also an AGE thing. Space battles aren't as exciting/interesting to me anymore.

I have read Vorkosigan fans complaining about the later books where Miles isn't running around blowing stuff up. So does the age of the readers affect what they want in the stories?

psik

 

[tinkerdan]

Siberian wrote:

Not necessarily. The first book about Horatio Hornblower features hims already in command of a ship. Then C.S.Forester when back and wrote more books about his early career. Weber did a similar thing, albeit in the case of Honor it's just stories in the anthologies rather than full novels.

Well then you have proven my point since I've not read C.S. Forester. It is great that David has run cross genres to get where he is at but that other genre is not what I read so my comparison is limited to what I do read and he breaks a large number of basic rules most of the authors I read try to follow. That he succeeds is a testament to at least his skill in crossing the genres.

 

[Siberian]

LOL, I really love both characters but neither of them seems to bat from that side of the plate.

No (and that's seems to be true about almost everyone which is kind of strange considering the sheer number of characters). However they spend so much time together that they could probably qualify for a civil union at the minimum

 

[Timba]

Actually I was getting more and more bored with the series after Flag in Exile and hadn't read a bunch of them

Then I read Mission of Honor and had to go back 2 or 3 books to find out what was going on. I don't mind it being less focused on Honor, in fact I think it is probably a good thing. But I wonder if this is also an AGE thing. Space battles aren't as exciting/interesting to me anymore.

I have read Vorkosigan fans complaining about the later books where Miles isn't running around blowing stuff up. So does the age of the readers affect what they want in the stories?

psik

I will not speak for the Parson but I just turned 64 a month ago and I love the battle scenes. I suspect Parson, who I believe is a contemporary, will agree. Maybe something else has changed for you. Sometimes it is hard to pin those things down, for instance I use to love to hunt and then spent time in the military and have not picked up a gun since. I guess you just never know sometimes.