Game of Thrones HBO - Disappointments, discuss.

[Needle]

Okay (several cups of coffee later) I have regained some composure!

I think this was the best episode yet, I have plenty of praise which I will post in the other threads, but for he first time I have some MAJOR disappointments!

As Imp pointed out no TOJ what so ever! Not the slightest hint! This does not bode well for us R+L fans! Like Bazza said it could still be done from another viewpoint, but even BFS was not in a position to know what happened. I think they could have found 2 min. somewhere for this very important piece!

What really tics me off though?
How do we deal with big, expensive battle scenes?
We skip them completely!
Oh, and just for fun, let's make Tyrion look like a total incompetent while we're at it!
We wouldn't want people to know he actually did a decent job, much better than he was supposed to!

 

[Ursa major]

As Imp pointed out no TOJ what so ever! Not the slightest hint! This does not bode well for us R+L fans! Like Bazza said it could still be done from another viewpoint, but even BFS was not in a position to know what happened. I think they could have found 2 min. somewhere for this very important piece!

Two things:

1. Whether the viewers see the TOJ scene(s) or not, that doesn't help Jon know (unless I've missed something and Amazon does deliver to the Wall). For J=R+L (or any other formulation), Jon is the one who needs to know, and in a way that can be proved. (The truth about Jon's parentage was mentioned too many times in the books for it to simply fade away.)
2. As Imp has also suggested, Howland Reed may well be in Jon's vicinity (http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/531181-my-latest-crackpot-theory-howland-reed.html).

 

[Needle]

Two things:

1. Whether the viewers see the TOJ scene(s) or not, that doesn't help Jon know (unless I've missed something and Amazon does deliver to the Wall). For J=R+L (or any other formulation), Jon is the one who needs to know, and in a way that can be proved. (The truth about Jon's parentage was mentioned too many times in the books for it to simply fade away.)
2. As Imp has also suggested, Howland Reed may well be in Jon's vicinity (http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/531181-my-latest-crackpot-theory-howland-reed.html).

You are correct Ursa, it just seems way too important to just leave out, and with only a few short pieces about Lyanna (in the first episode I think) and little (if any) mention of Rheagar non-reader viewers will not have a clue whats going on when it does come up!

 

[TK-421]

OK, Let me try to inject a bit of optimism in this bloated thread.

Dreams:
We will see a "prophetic dream" with Bran and Rickon in the next episode.

Tower of Joy:
I would not rule out us seeing anything related to Lyanna just yet. BUT, it could be a major hint that "promise me, Ned" just did not mean what we thought it did. Or that they felt it would too confusing or out of place that they decided not to include it. Let's remember that GRRM saw every word of the script.

The show is made for both audiences that have read the books but also as much for those who have not. Introducing Tower of Joy without any context would simply not have worked. If R+L=J is true and I am having doubts it is, it will be revealed but it hasn't actually been yet in the books and all we have are theories at best. GRRM has said that ADWD will tell us more of Jon's origins but he did not say that we will learn the whole truth. We just like to jump to conclusions.

As the series progresses, secrets may get revealed but GRRM and the producers will ensure that only those that truly matter to the series, main characters and final outcome will be included. C'est la vie.

Tyrion:
I actually really like how the truly portrayed Tyrion. Very vulnerable and wanting some love or acceptance but I would dispute "incompetent". The viewer knows that he is not by now but Tyrion always felt that way before his father and the look Tywin gave him at the dinner table in the tent said ALOT. It helps build the viewer's sympathy for him because, let's face it, his adventures in ACOK and ASOS are not easy ones and Tyrion makes decisions that many will hate him for.

Battle Scenes:
C'est la vie!

 

[The Imp]

So I'm not a fan of this thread, because I think the show does so many wonderful things from the book that a lot of the little details seem petty compared to what they have truly accomplished bringing this epic to the small screen.

That being said though, I do agree with the Imp and regret that the Tower of Joy scene was cut ( and Bran's falling dream was cut). I do feel that these are integral scenes introducing or hinting at the monumental importance of the two characters involved. To me they were very powerful scenes and drew me into the series much farther than the political intrigue ever did.

But from what I have seen so far, I am fully confident that these missing cogs will reveal themselves later in the series, at the very least, in a newly creative way. I believe that this is all due to time constraints which I fully understand, that some things must be sacrificed. I also understand that in the series we have moved away from the first person POV perspectives described in the books and introduce a 3rd person POV description in the show.

....but still! TOJ come onnnnn next season!!! Maybe a prologue for one of the new seasons? Yes? Best scene ever. I predict Ser Barristan describing some reason why the Lord Commander of the kingsguard was guarding some wayward Stark girl on the borders of Dorne in the Dance of Dragons!

Your post made my day, and I agree with everything you said, including not being a big fan of this thread.

 

[Boneman]

Well, I have only popped in and out of this thread, seeing what the consensus was. But... I tried to read the first book, and now cannot recall hardly anything - someone fell off a roof, and there was some betrayal by someone. I will watch the series first, so do doubt will have an entirely different take on it! It's always best to see the film first, I reckon.

 

[Conor]

Okay (several cups of coffee later) I have regained some composure!

I think this was the best episode yet, I have plenty of praise which I will post in the other threads, but for he first time I have some MAJOR disappointments!

As Imp pointed out no TOJ what so ever! Not the slightest hint! This does not bode well for us R+L fans! Like Bazza said it could still be done from another viewpoint, but even BFS was not in a position to know what happened. I think they could have found 2 min. somewhere for this very important piece!

What really tics me off though?
How do we deal with big, expensive battle scenes?
We skip them completely!
Oh, and just for fun, let's make Tyrion look like a total incompetent while we're at it!
We wouldn't want people to know he actually did a decent job, much better than he was supposed to!

I completely agree about the battle scenes being completely skipped. Come on I am sure they could have done something, they had lots of guys there. Plus showing Tyrion being accidently whacked on the head and missing the whole affair was very disappointing. He could have gotten killed in the battle in the book but he did quite well, rode a horse and everything if I am correct.
I agree with Bazza, it's a great series but I am afraid they'll somehow short change us big time on the dragons next week.

 

[Lofwyr]

I honestly don't mind skipping a battle scene and showing just the aftermath. There's just too much other stuff to tell with one episode left to spend time on a lengthy fight. Plus it allows viewers to imagine their own scale to some extent. Given GRRM is writing the blackwater episode next season I think we won't want for big fights.

I'm with everyone else on no ToJ. I had my fingers crossed that it would be how they opened the episode. I don't know how much that says about R+L=J theories one way or the other though. The flashback provides some evidence and singles out those that can give a true conclusion, but that isn't actually relevant at this point in the series. Mainly people should just remain curious about Jon's parentage and it will make the information useful whenever it comes.

To that end I'm calling a complete 3-eyed crow dream sequence in the crypts to open episode 10. I also expect that it will be more complete than described in the books and Ned will have something to say regarding Jon to keep viewers aware of that mystery.

Fingers also crossed that they've saved budget to do some awesome CG dragons.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I completely agree about the battle scenes being completely skipped. Come on I am sure they could have done something, they had lots of guys there. Plus showing Tyrion being accidently whacked on the head and missing the whole affair was very disappointing.

If I recall correctly, isn't this what happens in the book anyway?

I haven't seen the episode yet, but in the book we only saw a little part of it anyway - Tyrion with his hill tribesmen, then he's knocked out. By the sounds of it, the episode is likely following it in a similar manner.

 

[Koopa]

in the books we see an actual fight scene, and are told the strategic events.
In the series, we see short before and after moments.

Passing by information such as Robb's brilliance (it's touched upon very shortly), the death of the karstarks (hell, there hasn't been a mention of them so far), ....

I get it though, the fight wasn't that long in the books, they could tell the most important events without having to show the actual battle. So why bother, when it's gonna cost a buckload of money.

Strangely enough my biggest complaint of this episode is that Aemon targaryen does not resemble the targaryens. And they had done such a good job with Dany and Viserys. I especially liked Viserys. It's not the first time i though differently about how they look. (For instance i kept thinking; surely that's not supposed to be shae.) And usually i am okay with that. But the targaryens are supposed to be otherworldy looking compared to everyone else (including the high houses). So Aemon has been a dissapointment perhaps because Viserys and Dany where well portrayed... I know the dude is old, but like with sansa at first (and in this episode as well) My dissapointment maybe also coming fro the fact that i just couldn't feel his presence. Like he was pasted upon the screen after they first filmed it with the other characters. The man did not grab my attention. he was just an old doddering dude whose words where supposed to come across as paasionate but seemed to lack that edge. For me at least.

 

[Conor]

If I recall correctly, isn't this what happens in the book anyway?

I haven't seen the episode yet, but in the book we only saw a little part of it anyway - Tyrion with his hill tribesmen, then he's knocked out. By the sounds of it, the episode is likely following it in a similar manner.

I am certain he did actually get to fight another Knight, with some luck most likely he did beat the guy and he was either killed or taken prisoner. I do specifically remember him giving Tyrion a chance to yield.

 

[svalbard]

The lack of battles does not really bother me. I have seen far too many crap ones done for TV shows. If you cannot do it right then leave it up to the viewers imagination. I think there were enough shots to give us, the viewer, a hint of the scale of the struggle.

I agree with kiwi, where are the Karstarks. Their storyline plays a major part in later plot development and where is Roose Bolton? Was he in the first book? I cannot remember.

Disagree about Aemon. I thought it was perfectly done. The old boy's acting was powerful in that scene with Jon.

 

[Ursa major]

Strangely enough my biggest complaint of this episode is that Aemon targaryen does not resemble the targaryens. And they had done such a good job with Dany and Viserys. I especially liked Viserys.

Poor old Aemon is meant to be over a hundred years old. He can't be expected to look too much like two teenagers**.



** - I'm not sure how much they've increased Viserys's age for the show; the actor is in his late twenties, though.

 

[Koopa]

I know he's supposed to be old, but he should still look Targaryen'ish. His lack of presence was, even more than the complete mundane look, a problem. perhaps it was the setting, perhaps it was because the setting for the scene wassn't what i was expting perhaps it was the way the conversation flowed out/was built op but he lacked the the targaryen air. With dany and Viserys i could feel that hey themselves felt they where something special, they created a certain atmosphere. Not so with Aemon. (yes i'm aware he's a loyal memeber of the citadel,and for more humble and sane than either of them but still... you expect a certain presence, a sense that he is there, now he like a fleeting capemoth) During this post i find myself looking for excuses for the acting actually. Cause the dude tried at getting the underlying feelings across, but he came short of getting there. I've read about some people complaining about Tyrion's eyes. Till now i've never had a problem with that. I did not care that Viserys'eyes weren't purple. But this guy needed the props. I kept thinking, god he should have at least been give lilac eyes. that way i could at least properly identify him as a targaryen.

Besides Sansa (whom only had 1 or 2 good moments), his acting has been amongst the most forgetful ones. mind you it's easy to criticize from here.

Just reread part of Tyrion scenes during the battle. and i found myself laughing at parts of the writers ingenuity. In the books Tyrion just got his squire Podrick payne, who has trouble saying anything. On tv, Tyrion calls for his squire and bronn answers you've got none. In the books gregor Clegane is present and Bronn says always follow a big man in battle, you can easily hide behind them while they make nice targets, on tv he tells Tyrion to make himself even smaller so that people will overlook him.Pure brilliance that.

 

[summeriris]

Was he supposed to be Targaryan looking? I thought his identity was supposed to come as a surprise to Jon. He was old and blind, did he have cataracts? If he had cataracts they would cover the iris of his eyes. I don't know what you mean by lack of presense. Peter Vaughan never lacked presence in any scene he ever acted in that I saw in his entire long and active acting career. Perhaps you could point out to me where we are not rivetted to him throughout that scene. In his other scenes he was supposed to fade into the background I think, but I figured out he would be important when I realised that he was being played by Peter Vaughan. I have a slightly different viewpoint as I never read the books first.
I agree with the person who posted that if you don't have 4-5 thousand men to throw into a battle scene, it's maybe better to not show the scene. I kind of remember a series about the American Civil War. The only episode that stood out for me was the one about a battle, either Antietam or Gettysburg? They had a cast of 4 hidden behind some trees firing rifles at the enemy. I nearly fell off my chair laughing.

 

[Koopa]

I liked Aemon in the books. Thatswhy i was expecting a lot from this Aemon. And to me he didn't fully deliver. He tried at delivering but to me, fell short.

Because of that i've been looking for reasons.
The setting, the flow of the conversation, the mood, his looks and so on. With his looks being the easiest to gripe on, to take into consideration. To think on what could have been done to make him look more special.
Truthfully i don't really think of aemon as truly targaryen looking (besides the colour of his eyes), but i've always felt he exuberated a certain air of knowledge and dignity. Something that amde you pause, and think wait maybe here is something more about this fella. Something that makes Jon ask the question who are you, instead of how where your vows tested. Its something that's difficult to pull of for most old men i know. But if he'd succeeded it would have set him apart from other old man. he did not have that. he lacked like i said (for a lack of better word) a certain presence.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I am certain he did actually get to fight another Knight, with some luck most likely he did beat the guy and he was either killed or taken prisoner. I do specifically remember him giving Tyrion a chance to yield.

You're right - I've seen the episode now and indeed they did cut it very short from the book version.

But as above, c'est la vie I guess.

 

[summeriris]

I liked Aemon in the books. Thatswhy i was expecting a lot from this Aemon. And to me he didn't fully deliver. He tried at delivering but to me, fell short.

Because of that i've been looking for reasons.
The setting, the flow of the conversation, the mood, his looks and so on. With his looks being the easiest to gripe on, to take into consideration. To think on what could have been done to make him look more special.
Truthfully i don't really think of aemon as truly targaryen looking (besides the colour of his eyes), but i've always felt he exuberated a certain air of knowledge and dignity. Something that amde you pause, and think wait maybe here is something more about this fella. Something that makes Jon ask the question who are you, instead of how where your vows tested. Its something that's difficult to pull of for most old men i know. But if he'd succeeded it would have set him apart from other old man. he did not have that. he lacked like i said (for a lack of better word) a certain presence.

Then I must disagree. I thought the point of the scene, that Jon was not the only one to have felt that he was being torn between his vows and his family was driven home strongly. It was all the more keenly felt because here was this old man that he really had never paid that much attention too in the past, pointing out that there had always been this tension in the men of the Night Watch. I felt Vaughan conveyed both dignity and strength, plus the frailty of great age. This combination is hard to carry out but Vaughan carried it off IMO, beautifully. That fact that great old age has ths element of frailty to it has to be recognised.

 

[TK-421]

Summeriris has it right.

I felt part of what they are conveying is that Aemon's age and isolation has left him forgotten by the world.

In the book, Jon was also surprised to find out who Aemon really was.

 

[digs]

I also thought the portrayal of Aemon was quite powerful. In fact, I was so struck by it that I just went back and rewatched it. The delivery of these lines gave me chills:

I will not tell you to stay or go. You must make that choice yourself, and live with it for the rest of your days...as I have.

There was something in the vacancy of his eyes, the trembling of his hands and the intonation of those last three words that resonated with me.