Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
Write another and then edit this one. Don't stop 
Help - I've written a draft - what do I do next?
- Thread starter EPT Henry
- Start date
My personal advice would be to read up on story structure - if you haven't already. That way you see if there may be any particular issues with your MS you can directly address yourself. There are some good book recommendations here:
https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/551724/
However, The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes by Jack Bickham, might be an especially good one to start with.
I would also recommend trying to listen to your intuition, and niggles. Often it's the case that the author can recognise where something isn't quite right. Make a note of where those sections are, and what your niggles are - then work on them.
Many stories undergo multiple drafts - that means major rewriting, rather than tweaking. The trouble is that its so easy to get stuck in the minutae of a manuscript - ie, the syntax of an individual sentence - rather than the macroscopic issues of structure and character development that might render that sentence, even scene, as superfluous and in need of removal - or significant change - in the first place.
Overall, do as much as you can to polish up at least your first few chapters - then when you reach 30 posts, put something up for Critique. I'll warn you now - you'll post it up thinking that it's mostly great. However, critical feedback can sting at first - but it toughens the skin ready for when an editor gets tough with it.
Hope that helps a bit.
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
£2.60 on Kindle (Obviously I took Brian's recommendation ages ago)
Hmm
Kindle Publication Date: 22 Feb. 2015
You purchased this item on 2 Mar. 2015.
Probably I should re-read it now.
Even if you post stuff KNOWING it's poor, the critters can tell you ten ways it's poor you hadn't thought of. At least five will be correct.
psychotick
Dangerously confused
Hi,
OK, here's my take on things. First there's two broad approaches you can take to publishing - self publishing or indie or you can look for an agent and go trade. Both of these options are for you a long way off.
From what I've read you've basically completed your first draft and now you're polishing it. That's fine but don't waste too much time polishing at this stage. Your next step is feedback. And yes it hurts. (I know personally. And my editor now knows too since I just got the first review back on my latest which unfairly attacked the editing!!! She's a basket case at the moment by the way - all that chatter about not enough colons and I had to talk to her strongly about not responding! I may have to keep weapons away from her as well!!!) So yeah, expect to feel hurt, and try to remember as you go through the process that it's a book, not your ugly baby or you that they're critiquing.
Others have suggested writing groups. Yes. Good suggestions. But for some of us its rare to find a writing group in our area that is strongly or even weakly focussed on sci fi / fantasy which can be an issue. The other option is to work online. Critiques through fora like the Chrons are a good way to go, but most of them will only take sections of a book a couple of thousand words long. Still it's good to try them and see what things people pick up.
Another option is the beta readers. Here you ask people you know and whose opinion you respect to read your work and comment. This can be done online which is useful. And yes an English teacher would be an excellent choice for one of the beta readers if you know one who can spare the time. Get three or four, and remember you aren't asking these people to look for typos. They aren't proof reading. They're looking at your story. Does it work? Are there plot holes? Do the characters seem real? And probably most important, what don't they understand? Because anything they don't understand is probably a clue that it isn't well explained.
After the beta reading you're ready to convert your first draft into your second. And that can often mean a major rewrite. (That's why I said don't do the polishing before hand.) Once you're second draft is done you're ready to start looking at the edit process. This is done in stages.
The first stage is the self edit. Start with all the proofing programmes you can find. Set them to eleven and let them loose one after another. Yes this is agony. Most of the stuff they pick up is not an error at all. And it will drive you nuts. But that's not the point. The point is that it makes you go through your work line by line. It makes you think about every sentence. And that you need to do. Also try reading your work out loud to yourself. Again it sounds stupid but it helps you find errors you wouldn't otherwise.
Now, at long last with your second draft polished to the best you can do, you're ready to make your decision - trade or indie. If you go trade and seek an agent / publisher your editing journey ends here. You have a new journey to begin of covering letters and submissions and more rejection. Agents don't expect a manuscript to be edited when they receive it. (If they do you have to start asking just what the hell they are actually doing for you.)
If you go indie you avoid this step but you now have to look at professional editing. Warning it costs money which is why you should never do it if you go trade. Trade these days has few advantages in my view (I'm not biased at all speaking as a proud indie!) but one is that they will provide editing for free, and since the advances these days aren't great, you don't want to be wasting your money on it if it comes free. If you go indie look for an editor with experience and references. Then start thinking cover artists, formatting, platforms and marketing etc.
Whichever option you choose though, don't imagine that your work stops there. Don't expect huge rewards and mega stardom either. To be a successful writer these days requires patience and stamina. It's a marathon not a sprint. And what you need to do is establish a reputation for putting out book after book, year after year that's good quality and a good read.
So that's my rough overview of the process.
Hope it helps,
Cheers, Greg.
OK, here's my take on things. First there's two broad approaches you can take to publishing - self publishing or indie or you can look for an agent and go trade. Both of these options are for you a long way off.
From what I've read you've basically completed your first draft and now you're polishing it. That's fine but don't waste too much time polishing at this stage. Your next step is feedback. And yes it hurts. (I know personally. And my editor now knows too since I just got the first review back on my latest which unfairly attacked the editing!!! She's a basket case at the moment by the way - all that chatter about not enough colons and I had to talk to her strongly about not responding! I may have to keep weapons away from her as well!!!) So yeah, expect to feel hurt, and try to remember as you go through the process that it's a book, not your ugly baby or you that they're critiquing.
Others have suggested writing groups. Yes. Good suggestions. But for some of us its rare to find a writing group in our area that is strongly or even weakly focussed on sci fi / fantasy which can be an issue. The other option is to work online. Critiques through fora like the Chrons are a good way to go, but most of them will only take sections of a book a couple of thousand words long. Still it's good to try them and see what things people pick up.
Another option is the beta readers. Here you ask people you know and whose opinion you respect to read your work and comment. This can be done online which is useful. And yes an English teacher would be an excellent choice for one of the beta readers if you know one who can spare the time. Get three or four, and remember you aren't asking these people to look for typos. They aren't proof reading. They're looking at your story. Does it work? Are there plot holes? Do the characters seem real? And probably most important, what don't they understand? Because anything they don't understand is probably a clue that it isn't well explained.
After the beta reading you're ready to convert your first draft into your second. And that can often mean a major rewrite. (That's why I said don't do the polishing before hand.) Once you're second draft is done you're ready to start looking at the edit process. This is done in stages.
The first stage is the self edit. Start with all the proofing programmes you can find. Set them to eleven and let them loose one after another. Yes this is agony. Most of the stuff they pick up is not an error at all. And it will drive you nuts. But that's not the point. The point is that it makes you go through your work line by line. It makes you think about every sentence. And that you need to do. Also try reading your work out loud to yourself. Again it sounds stupid but it helps you find errors you wouldn't otherwise.
Now, at long last with your second draft polished to the best you can do, you're ready to make your decision - trade or indie. If you go trade and seek an agent / publisher your editing journey ends here. You have a new journey to begin of covering letters and submissions and more rejection. Agents don't expect a manuscript to be edited when they receive it. (If they do you have to start asking just what the hell they are actually doing for you.)
If you go indie you avoid this step but you now have to look at professional editing. Warning it costs money which is why you should never do it if you go trade. Trade these days has few advantages in my view (I'm not biased at all speaking as a proud indie!) but one is that they will provide editing for free, and since the advances these days aren't great, you don't want to be wasting your money on it if it comes free. If you go indie look for an editor with experience and references. Then start thinking cover artists, formatting, platforms and marketing etc.
Whichever option you choose though, don't imagine that your work stops there. Don't expect huge rewards and mega stardom either. To be a successful writer these days requires patience and stamina. It's a marathon not a sprint. And what you need to do is establish a reputation for putting out book after book, year after year that's good quality and a good read.
So that's my rough overview of the process.
Hope it helps,
Cheers, Greg.
Great advice above. The only thing I'd put an oar in on is that, even if you're going the agent/trad route, a developmental edit* might be worth paying for. I had Teresa Edgerton and Boneman do this on two of mine and learned a lot as well as getting some skills of what to do with edits. It strengthened the story.
*a developmental edit focuses on the story, its strengths etc, as well as your writing strengths and weaknesses. It's not a line edit. That isn't needed before submission to agents (provided, of course, you have reasonable self editing skills. Submitting an error strewn mss will go nowhere.)
*a developmental edit focuses on the story, its strengths etc, as well as your writing strengths and weaknesses. It's not a line edit. That isn't needed before submission to agents (provided, of course, you have reasonable self editing skills. Submitting an error strewn mss will go nowhere.)
EPT Henry
Dawb a dawb dawb...
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That's interesting. I was under the impression you needed the work editing before submitting for an agent?
Anyone fancy being a beta reader? Don't really have anyone I know who would want to do it. Don't know any other writers and to my mates I'm the sci-fi geeky one so no common interest there!
Anyone fancy being a beta reader? Don't really have anyone I know who would want to do it. Don't know any other writers and to my mates I'm the sci-fi geeky one so no common interest there!
I strongly support Ray's advice: put it on the shelf and start writing another text. Finish that text and then return back to the previous one. You'll be amazed how much howlers you'll discover in process of reading it. Correct them, then return to the second text and do the same to it. Then put them both on the farthest shelf in your house (or in a well-hidden folder on your HDD) and return to them five years later to have a good laugh and a strong sense of nostalgia. Meanwhile, start working on your third text - it'll be the first one you really want to show to others.
When I just started working on my first novel (ah, it was 20 years ago! how young and naive I was...), I made three readings in a row (making a draft -> correcting the plot -> correcting minor details -> final polishing). Now I restrict myself to two passes.
Roy1
Roy G
All good advice but watch out for opportunities like this http://hodderscape.co.uk/open-submissions-the-guidelines/
And while you are doing all that check out publishers like Solaris and Angry Robot for similar.
You never know, you might be lucky but don't worry if you aren't. Note the hodder thing is closed.
And while you are doing all that check out publishers like Solaris and Angry Robot for similar.
You never know, you might be lucky but don't worry if you aren't. Note the hodder thing is closed.
Go for crits first. Beta reading a novel is a huge ask for someone. Get your basic feedback first, get to know people, and then ask again. And be prepared to read a lot in return - I spent my first two years here betaing books. I read more Chronners work than published books...
Re editing and agents, no you don't need to have one first. But you do need to submit a very, very clean copy.
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
Yes,
Also getting useful feedback is very difficult.
"I liked it" is encouraging, but useless.
I did my first non-technical writing in 1980s. Then a plan for video game turned into a novel in 1992. Everyone that read it, loved it. I saw re-reading it in May 2014 it was beyond rescue by editing so I started a new story. Only 14 months later I've written seven complete novels, one novella, cobbled a 1st draft of a 13K short story from "deletions" of two of the novels, started another and ideas/plans for maybe six more. I may now be ready to write the story of the last 1993 version of the 1992 "novel". Certainly not edit existing text. The two novels done in June to August 2014 need the most rework.
You do need to edit and re-write and learn technical stuff. But there probably isn't a substitute for very many hours a week writing. I found over the last year that my 1st drafts are getting better and I'm slowly getting better at seeing what to edit/re-write.
I may self publish some of the more niche SF, but not without more re-writing, editing and some 3rd party editing. Also someone else to final proof read. I'll try to get a USA agent/ publisher for the "Fantasy" stuff once it has had a final 3rd party edit and proof read. Once you are published, then an Agent and/or publisher may* take work less polished, as long as it's to a good enough standard. A first novel is unlikely to be such.
[* Reading "From Pitch to Publication" by Carole Blake, an Owner/Agent of an Agency, found it in Library, it's still in print though, very little about actual writing in it, but a LOT about what Agents and Publishers expect and do.]
Denise Tanaka
Denise RobargeTanaka
Ditto all of the above.
One good way to build up your post numbers (and qualify for putting your work in the critique section) is to go read some of the pieces already posted in the critique section. Start putting in your own comments on someone else's work, and see what remarks they get. Do you agree or disagree with the feedback there, if so, why? That shows you the mechanics of critique process at the same time you are not personally involved while critiquing someone else.
One good way to build up your post numbers (and qualify for putting your work in the critique section) is to go read some of the pieces already posted in the critique section. Start putting in your own comments on someone else's work, and see what remarks they get. Do you agree or disagree with the feedback there, if so, why? That shows you the mechanics of critique process at the same time you are not personally involved while critiquing someone else.
Gary Compton
I miss you, wor kid.
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- 3,247
What genre is it?
EPT Henry
Dawb a dawb dawb...
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2015
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Fantasy. It's meant it be (hopefully is) light hearted but set in quite a grim world with a few dark turns.
Roy1
Roy G
http://commapress.co.uk/resources/national-creative-writing-graduate-day/ £25 but may well interest some of you.
Quote "In the afternoon you will have a chance to pitch your work to a host of literary editors (including genre editors), literary agents, scouts and broadcasting commissioners from across the UK. You will receive at least two individual appointments so start practicing your pitch! Designed to be a friendly and immediate feedback session, this is a rare opportunity to meet face-to-face with the people who make the publishing world go round. "
Quote "In the afternoon you will have a chance to pitch your work to a host of literary editors (including genre editors), literary agents, scouts and broadcasting commissioners from across the UK. You will receive at least two individual appointments so start practicing your pitch! Designed to be a friendly and immediate feedback session, this is a rare opportunity to meet face-to-face with the people who make the publishing world go round. "
I wouldn't go near such an event unless I was sure my manuscript was totally error free, my story had the correct pace and characterisation etc etc. in short, not until it was critted and betaed to death.
these events come up from time to time - don't blow your chances before your mss is ready.
And yes, that's the voice of someone who did it. Many times, to many agents....
Hello ETP Henry, thank you for your post. I just signed up two minutes ago after reading it and the plethora of helpful replies. Everything you posted covers all the same questions I have recently been asking myself and the only reason I was passing through this forum was because I too hope to squeeze into a writing community somewhere. So here I am. Although I am extremely disappointed so far after being forced to face the reality that indeed I am not a robot...
EPT Henry
Dawb a dawb dawb...
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Welcome to you. We can work this whole writing thing out together! Where are you up to in your writing? What genre do you write?
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