Jedi / Sith / The Force

[Harleyquin]

Thought I’d start a new thread for this as I’ve seen various other threads touch upon these subjects slightly distracting from the main purpose of that thread…

Anyway here goes J

I’ve recently read all the SW books and I’m not sure if its because there so many different writers on SW books – or that there’s no defined limits to their creativity but the force as described in the books seems to shift and change per user – sure there’s the standard “cannon” of abilities such as acrobatics and such – but then we divert into “light side” and “dark side” powers such as force absorb and force lightning… and as you read on different Jedi / Sith can perform more unique force actions that others cannot.

Ok lets store that away for now and look at the force users themselves.

Jedi – Luke rebuilt the order, and has found several holicrons to help him over the years… strangely Ben and Yoda disappear from the book after episode 6 so Luke’s pretty much on his own now. Ok so by default he’s the Jedi Grand Master, however we have to acknowledge that he’s not had a lifetime of training and ability to access historical records like other Jedi masters did, so the question is how “good” is Luke in comparison with other Jedi master… sure Luke has a vast “innate” force ability, but without the training from early childhood how good can he be???

Anyway he rebuilds the Jedi by going round and touching peoples minds till he finds a group and trains them up – with his distinct lack of complete knowledge… so we go back to the books and we find some of the new Jedi masters solely interested in “force” research – hence why the new Jedi can be taught different techniques.

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

Sith – so many times there’s comments in the books that Sidious and Vader were “perversions” of true Sith. That true Sith aren’t petty or selfish but desire order above all things. The main point in the Sith history though is that each master takes on an apprentice and sooner or later that apprentice will attempt to kill the master. This seems totally insane as an “ordered” society goes. Sure you weed out the week people but ultimately when you’re a Sith master your always training up the person who will kill you – yes this plays into the whole “Sacrifice” part of the Sith teaching but usually this sacrifice is not of themselves but of somebody else. What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

Right (yes I’ve not finished sorry)

We read the books, watch the movie etc and we realise quite early that the dark side seems much more powerful that the light side… after all it only took one Sith lord to blind the entire “master” Jedi council to the future while he went merrily on his way. In the books you see dark Jedi taking on two three and four light siders and happily taking them on or even better perverting them to the dark side.

For me this has always been a problem. The way I think of the Darkside is passion and strong emotion – so when your in a blazing fury and rage for sure you’re a hell of a lot stronger than other people but that fury is unfocused – it makes to think less and more vulnerable to people who aren’t in that rage – if a level headed person simply avoids the crushing attacks they could win – but only if they keep avoiding the attacks. So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

Finally and I’ll make this the last point for now – what makes the dark side so irretrievable? Yoda was proven wrong with the comment of “once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny” bla bla … Vader came back, Luke came back, Kip came back – all seduced to the dark side – all came back to the light side.

So Since we know Luke was both light and dark wouldn’t it have made sense for him to scrap the “old” Jedi ways and teach both light and dark techniques but also have “moral” training as well to teach new Jedi how to switch From dark force and light force as and when the situation arises, after all picking somebody up with the force and picking somebody up by the force with their throat is the exact same power – just applied in a different way – its not good or evil – just its application – so technically speaking why cannot Light side jedi learn force lightning? This way we simply have a "force" order neither good or evil - but balanced. send out the dark side profficient beserkers into battle , have them commanded by lightsiders who can do the tactics - Universe in order

 

[C Of K]

Very insightful post, Harley. (Too insightful, perhaps?) I have no easy, or sure answer for any of it, really.

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

Difficult to compare jedi knights of different eras. Extensive training would be important, but members of the old jedi order were more fallible than the general mystique surrounding them as is true with the new. As far as powers are concerned, a few jedi in both eras were outstanding. That's where I think the answer can be found. Durring the clone wars, Yoda, Windu, and Anakin were perhaps among the most powerful. In Luke's time, he would be considered among that number, along with Kyp and the Solo children.

Anakin became (perhaps) the greatest hero of the clone wars not because he had so much training, but because it was easier for him to draw on the force than it was for other jedi. Hence, it was often the case that circumstances required Anakin to bail many of the jedi out of trouble. The same would go for the new jedi order. While a thousand years worth of teaching is irreplaceable, on a level of shear power, there are jedi of the new order that are more capable than jedi of the old.

In the extended universe, Luke has endured about thirty or more years of war (I'm guessing here, but it's close to thirty) Thirty years of dealing with life, death, struggle, and the force itself. Not many jedi throughout history can claim that. Many jedi who lived hundreds of years wouldn't have had to deal with antagonists that were so focused for so long. Luke may have discovered powers that older jedi never thought of.

What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

I'm uncertain how much of a perversion Vader and Sidious actually were. I think for the most part they took the path of the darkside to its inevitable ending (all roads lead to Rome in this instance) The darkside is supposed to embrace an attitude of selfishness. Why Darth Pleagueis, a man who could live forever, felt the need to train an apprentice I have no idea. But Sidious' purpose for Vader was clear. Vader served the same purpose as the Death Star. He was an element of fear, that would eventually lead people to fear the Emperor and the empire. Sidious knew that if he neglected Vader's instruction, he would always have the secrets Vader wanted. Plagueis the "not so" wise, foolishly squandered this advantage over Sidious.

We read the books, watch the movie etc and we realise quite early that the dark side seems much more powerful that the light side… after all it only took one Sith lord to blind the entire “master” Jedi council to the future while he went merrily on his way. In the books you see dark Jedi taking on two three and four light siders and happily taking them on or even better perverting them to the dark side.

I'm still debating with myself over this, to tell you the truth. It does seem the dark is stronger, but it really depends on circumstances, and the reason certain things were happening. I'm not sure how much blinding Sidious actually did. I think the jedi might have been blinding themselves. While trying to use the light, they were serving a corrupt government. From this point of view, the basis for almost every act they made could have attributed to strengthening the darkside. In this way, they made Sidious stronger by giving him almost complete control over them, diminishing their perception regarding the will of the force.

I think Darth Maul and Count Dooku were easily able to dispatch many jedi may be because most jedi weren't trained to fight enemies wielding lightsabers. Maul had been trained specifically for that purpose. Simply put, he was a weapon in the purest sense. The jedi had to master so many different avenues of dealing with others before they even considered pulling a lightsaber on someone as a last resort. Not only that, but most of them were trained to deflect blaster bolts, since they believed the sith lords were all extinct. Dooku also used a lightsaber style that would usually give him an advantage over most jedi. Of course, Anakin was able to defeat him with a display of raw power, and perhaps by even touching the darkside himself.

So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

Well, just as the stronger person, isn't always the stronger fighter, I'd have to say that weakness in a battle is defined by the person with the disadvantage no matter what it may be. A certain stronger person may be too slow to successfully defeat a smaller person. But I believe that physically, Anakin was perhaps the strongest jedi when he drew on the force. I think he could probably hit harder, and move faster than any of them. I'm not positive of this, but while reading about his duel with Dooku in episode three, I don't think it mattered how angry Dooku got, he wouldn't have been able to match Anakin strength for strength.

Finally and I’ll make this the last point for now – what makes the dark side so irretrievable? Yoda was proven wrong with the comment of “once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny” bla bla … Vader came back, Luke came back, Kip came back – all seduced to the dark side – all came back to the light side.

Well, the Timothy Zahn books gives an interesting interpretation of all of this (as far as Luke goes, anyway) It suggests, that even after Luke returned, the darkside influenced his actions to some degree. Perhaps, had he not turned to the darkside to begin with, the new jedi order may have had more prosperous beginnings. Perhaps he even would have been a stronger teacher, and a stronger jedi altogether. Kyp, for his part, has always been somewhat of a rogue. He never seems to learn his lesson Vader returned, but paid a heavy price, and even then was unable to undue his reputation within galactic circles. So pretty much each of these individuals are responsible for irreversible actions on some level.

So Since we know Luke was both light and dark wouldn’t it have made sense for him to scrap the “old” Jedi ways and teach both light and dark techniques but also have “moral” training as well to teach new Jedi how to switch From dark force and light force as and when the situation arises

Quite an idea. Since Luke has learned some of the darkside, I think he fears it. That fear no doubt influences his life, how he trains others, and how he behaves. I doubt that he trusts himself completely with the knowledge he has, although the doctrine that there really was no darkside did surface for a while among the jedi. Of course, this contradicts George Lucas' vision in someways, but in some ways it does not. It may be that there is a force of energy with a purpose, pure and simple, and the darkness only comes from individuals who learn different pathways to power that are embraced through anger, fear, and aggression. Or there may actually be a dark power separate from the individual

 

[Delvo]

I once saw someone talking about "gray Jedi", who could use the emotional intensity of the Dark Side when needed but still calm down and maintain control when the need was past. That person seemed to think that this was an established idea, among some faction of the fans at least even if not in novel/comic canon. Mace Windu was suggested as an example (and his lightsaber was purple, which is half blue, half red!), and I think the concept is really the only explanation that makes any sense for Obi-Wan's last-minute defeat of Darth Maul soon after seeing his master killed.

And when Luke asked whether the Dark Side was more powerful, Yoda said it isn't, but it that it is "quicker, easier", so that's another possible explanation for the apparent imbalance: not that there's actually an imbalance of power, but that those on one side find it easier to use.

And Sith Lords could also have made a point of recruiting only the top Force-users, as opposed to all of them including the averages and below-averages like the Jedi Order did.

 

[C Of K]

And Sith Lords could also have made a point of recruiting only the top Force-users, as opposed to all of them including the averages and below-averages like the Jedi Order did.

Very good point. Anyone who actually made "Sith Lord" status had to be very powerful in order to survive training. Although certain jedi students were unable to graduate to knighthood, it was likely a much harder task for Sith Lords to ascend.

 

[Majimaune]

I’ve recently read all the SW books

OK tell me where you got them all.

Jedi – Luke rebuilt the order, and has found several holicrons to help him over the years… strangely Ben and Yoda disappear from the book after episode 6 so Luke’s pretty much on his own now.

Yoda doesn't give much guidance to Luke after he dies so I can understand him disappearing. In one of the ones I read (forget which one) Ben says to Luke that he will not be able to help him much longer and Luke will be on his own.

Sith – so many times there’s comments in the books that Sidious and Vader were “perversions” of true Sith. That true Sith aren’t petty or selfish but desire order above all things. The main point in the Sith history though is that each master takes on an apprentice and sooner or later that apprentice will attempt to kill the master. This seems totally insane as an “ordered” society goes. Sure you weed out the week people but ultimately when you’re a Sith master your always training up the person who will kill you – yes this plays into the whole “Sacrifice” part of the Sith teaching but usually this sacrifice is not of themselves but of somebody else. What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

The Sith were actually a race of force powerful beings. They died out or something and then when Jedi turned evil the best started taking on the name Sith.

For me this has always been a problem. The way I think of the Darkside is passion and strong emotion – so when your in a blazing fury and rage for sure you’re a hell of a lot stronger than other people but that fury is unfocused – it makes to think less and more vulnerable to people who aren’t in that rage – if a level headed person simply avoids the crushing attacks they could win – but only if they keep avoiding the attacks. So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

OK so you want my thoughts. Good. I would say Jedi would be more powerful because they are restraining themselves from using the full power that they can use whereas the Sith or fallen Jedi don't care and use all they have. It makes me think that if a Jedi was pressed he could come up with a yet unknown amount of power.

So Since we know Luke was both light and dark wouldn’t it have made sense for him to scrap the “old” Jedi ways and teach both light and dark techniques but also have “moral” training as well to teach new Jedi how to switch From dark force and light force as and when the situation arises, after all picking somebody up with the force and picking somebody up by the force with their throat is the exact same power – just applied in a different way – its not good or evil – just its application – so technically speaking why cannot Light side jedi learn force lightning? This way we simply have a "force" order neither good or evil - but balanced. send out the dark side profficient beserkers into battle , have them commanded by lightsiders who can do the tactics - Universe in order

I can see your point in this. The reason there is the Jedi and the Sith is so that it is balanced so why not make everyone balanced. I'll tell you why it isn't like this in two words. George Lucas.

 

[Huttman]

Meesa back! Well, actually I've been back several times to read posts and I have to say this thread has some great, loaded questions here. I've done some thinking on these before I wanted to respond with my take. While I have read very few EU books, the Zahn trilogy (been so long I don't really remember much) and some of the 'Tales of' books, my reponse will be from just the knowledge of the movies and my own understanding of things. Here goes...

Ok so by default he’s the Jedi Grand Master, however we have to acknowledge that he’s not had a lifetime of training and ability to access historical records like other Jedi masters did, so the question is how “good” is Luke in comparison with other Jedi master… sure Luke has a vast “innate” force ability, but without the training from early childhood how good can he be???

Well perhaps it was best that he did not have the same training as the pre-clone wars Jedi as the teaching was not pure in that it was breeding haughtiness and a bad sense of contentment that allowed corruption to creep into the government and the Jedi order itself. Luke learned from Ben and Yoda after these events took place, and it was after the clone wars that they themselves had learned of their own mistakes. If Luke did not learn from youth up but learned a more pure essence of the force (he was also the offspring of one of the most powerful force-users ever), then the time spent was not as relevent. Quality, not quantity.

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

Refer to answer above and this - I believe the Force will teach you, you just need a guide to start you off whose learned himself, and hopefully it was a good one. A Jedi apprentice will learn from his master and continue on himself with the Force as his guide. The Sith will dominate their apprentice until one kills the other. On a personal note, I've said this before, but I would really like to see why the Sith became in the first place. It would make an outstanding new trilogy. I still have yet to look into the KotOR, perhaps someday.

What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

A house divided collapses in on itself. Yes, you are right. Becoming the all powerful Dark Master and keeping it is, in essence, what every Sith tries for. It is a greed that is never satisfied. Palpatine did not have one apprentice, he had one after the other. Yes, even he conjectured that Vader was going to become more powerful than him, but whether it was because of Vader's crippled body or that is the nature of the Sith, Palpatine did try to replace Vader with Luke. It does not make sense to rational thinking because it is self defeating. Our world does not make sense because it also is self defeating, the reasons being sooo numerous and obvious, but I will not go into that here unless asked to do so. I do love the idealogical similarities between the two, though, even tried starting a thread but it did not seem too popular. Next...

We read the books, watch the movie etc and we realise quite early that the dark side seems much more powerful that the light side… after all it only took one Sith lord to blind the entire “master” Jedi council to the future while he went merrily on his way.

I like how you put that-merrily on his way.

For me this has always been a problem. The way I think of the Darkside is passion and strong emotion – so when your in a blazing fury and rage for sure you’re a hell of a lot stronger than other people but that fury is unfocused – it makes to think less and more vulnerable to people who aren’t in that rage – if a level headed person simply avoids the crushing attacks they could win – but only if they keep avoiding the attacks. So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

There is a proverb that says - 'He that is slow to anger is better thatn a mighty man, and he that is controlling his spirit than the man capturing a city.' Another point, martial arts. Many martial arts do not center on attack, but teach how to use the aggressors anger, attack, and strength against him. Using the Force is more than just a symbolic power level meter like that in video games. It is a teaching of a way of life. Motive is one of the key elements to this teaching. Without the proper motive, well, while there is no place of eternal torment, I'm sure you've heard where some good intentions are paved to.

what makes the dark side so irretrievable? Yoda was proven wrong with the comment of “once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny” bla bla … Vader came back, Luke came back, Kip came back – all seduced to the dark side – all came back to the light side.

Well, it is true from a certain point of view. It would have been irresponsible for Yoda to say to Luke, come back, you can, especially at that point in his training. And unless I've missed something in the EU, no one had come back yet from the dark side, and I'm not really sure Luke went to the dark side in RotJ, myself. His anger was to defend his sister, not himself, good motive there. IF he went farther in his emotions than even he liked, he quickly made the decision to say up yours to the Emperor. I'm a firm believer in that it is not so much as to making a mistake, but what we do right afterwards that makes all the difference. How would the world have turned out if Adam or Eve would have owned up to there mistake instead of blaming others is maybe an example you can relate to, whether you put stock in that or not. Truth be told, once you understand the dark side, there really is no coming back, even if you should shun it and follow a right course. There will always be the knowledge there of what you have done and what is ugly in life will be that much more real. On the flip side to that, if you can leave it behind, you will stick to the light side with that much more conviction and would be a good advocate for, 'don't go there, man, it really sucks, trust me, I know.'

 

[Majimaune]

Nice little thing there, had to revise on the rest of the thread as well.

Huttman I think you did a better job then me at answering those questions.

 

[Huttman]

Well thank you Majimaune! I was just responding to Harleyquin's post but I really liked your response as well. Saying that the Jedi are more powerful because they restrain themselves is very insightful. Good post!

 

[C Of K]

Huttman's back...and channeling Jar Jar? Good to read ya again. And this has turned into quite a thread.

Just wanted to clear something up, though. As far as Luke turning to the dark side in RotJ. He didn't, but according to the novelization, he was on the verge of doing so. It didn't happen in the movie, but the Emperor threatened to turn the Death Star on Endore in order to feed Luke's mounting rage. But when Vader threatened Leia, Luke pretty much lost control of himself.

However, Luke did turn to the dark side in the Dark Empire comic book series. In my original post I was referring to that instance, as it pretty much dominated his every decision afterward.

For reference, the setting of Dark Empire occurs almost directly after Timothy Zahn's original trilogy. I'm certain there is a little time in between, as Leia is pregnant again...

 

[Huttman]

Ahhh yes, that's right. The Death Star was going to destroy Endor. In the movie it did show Luke's rage as being on the verge of the dark side because of his decision making moment after he bested his father. I have not read the Dark Empire story, and I find it difficult to imagine a situation more intense than the one he faced with the Emperor. I figure if he stood up to that, temptation later on would be more of a trivial matter. In my happy place, however, I envision no more Sith or dark side shenanigans after Palpatine/Vader, hence bringing the Force back into balance. Evil does not have to exist for good to be in balance--- I'm having deja vu here. Was not this talked about in another thread?

Anyway, I know books and comics would not sell if there was not an antagonist there or the if hero was not in some kind of danger. As I said before, the Zahn trilogy was great fun to read, a great continuation of a great story. Would you be willing to share the reason Luke fell to the dark side in Dark Empire? I would still find it interesting and would really appreciate it!

 

[Majimaune]

I have kept away from the graphic novels, maybe I should see if I can find them again. My library has quite a few. But until then could you enlighten us?

 

[Harleyquin]

For info for people who didnt know

Luke absolutely falls totally and compleatly for the Emporers plan. he see's all his friends "dying" and he goes for the kill. This key sequence shows luke falling prey to his emotions (and the dark side???) with the emporer proclaiming that he like his father is now his...

Skip on a few moments past the best lightsaber fight (yes still much better than the obi fight ep3) and then the cu de gra. even though luke is desperately trying to controle his emotions Vader just gets dirty and implies that he'll turn leia - Whammo luke explodes in absolute fury and kicks his dad's butt. The only thing that Stops Luke becoming Anakin Part II is when he looks at his fathers severe hand the electronic and realises his hand is the same - he feels the connection again to dear old dad, and right away were back on the light side express...

Skip to the Dark Empire series and Lukes gone Bad - he daftly goes bad in a search to understand why his dad went bad - however this time he's saved by Leia - his Family again brings him back to the light side.

Kip Duran came back to the light side becuase of han solo - he was a "fatherly" figure to him... now as others said perhaps Yoda was right in the fact that no other Jedi ever managed to come back to the light - but with anakin, luke and Kip they all had "family" to bring them back - all other fallen jedi didnt - for millenia it was forbiden to have a family.

 

[Huttman]

What an interesting point about family. It makes one think that it was another faulty guideline practiced by the Jedi order, one of many misguided, misunderstood rules that the Jedi enforced. It makes me think of a parallel dogma enforced for centuries here about forbidding marriage where it was never supposed to be by the church. Very interesting point indeed. The prophecy about Anakin was right, which was one of Yoda's biggest mistakes in later doubting.

While I don't think this would make an exciting movie, a book perhaps, but I would like to hear the conversations between Yoda and Qui-Gon while he was on Dagobah. I would like to hear Yoda's take on his own errors and see how he feels about the Jedi order being practically abolished. One thing that I missed in Revenge of the Sith was a sorrowful Yoda or at least a tear running down his cheek from the events that transpired. That is why I would think it would be cool if someone wrote a book, Memoirs of Yoda, to show how this affected him. Thank you for the info, Harleyquin!

 

[Delvo]

The "family" thing explains what made Darth Vader Darth Vader, brought him back, make Luke go nuts in TRotJ, and brought him back, but it's just a dramatic story element for them which doesn't work very well when you try to apply it to the others.

Leiah is the kind of family that a Jedi can't avoid having (parents and siblings, as opposed to spouses and their own children); your parents and siblings are created by someone else's actions, not yours. So the rule against Jedi marrying and reproducing wouldn't prevent them from having sisters anyway. And Kip already had no family; Han's paternalism is just a metaphor for someone he just met along the way in life. And the Jedi can't possibly not meet people on the job, so the rule against marrying and reproducing doesn't touch this either.

I wonder if there could be a reason for the rule against Jedi reproduction hiding in the fact that people who can use the Force tend to be born to parents who can use the Force. Did they want to deliberately keep the number of Force-users in the galaxy down? This adds to my reasons to believe the Order was created not to use the Jedi to protect others from each other, but to protect everybody else from unrestricted Force-users.

 

[Huttman]

I wonder if there could be a reason for the rule against Jedi reproduction hiding in the fact that people who can use the Force tend to be born to parents who can use the Force. Did they want to deliberately keep the number of Force-users in the galaxy down? This adds to my reasons to believe the Order was created not to use the Jedi to protect others from each other, but to protect everybody else from unrestricted Force-users.

If I understand that correctly, it is something I honestly had not thought of. If a Jedi had an immediate family, he might be more biased in protecting them rather than others. If that is not what you meant, it at least got me to think of the reason I just stated. It would be another interesting point to make in a KotOR prequel type trilogy of movies. Are you reading this Mr. Lucas?

The forbidding of marriage by some in our culture is not scriptural. It was written by Paul that there are advantages to both, but in the present system to stay single has the betterment of focusing on the tasks at hand they were commissioned to do. He did say if it was difficult for the individual to do so, then one should marry, it would be blessed as well if done properly.

By the way, where is the character Kip from?

 

[C Of K]

Although Luke did say he turned to the dark side, in Dark Empire, in order to understand his father better, that wasn't really his only reason.

He found out that Emperor Palpatine discovered the means for immortality (he existed as pure dark energy within the force) Palpatine was using clone bodies to regain physical form every time he perished. Luke knew that if he killed the Emperor when he had the chance, the evil master would just return again.

Luke deduced that to discover the Emperor's secrets, he had to get close to him, sort of like a "secret agent" type thing. But the Emperor knew Luke's motives, and trusted that the dark side would do it's job and change Luke forever.

And indeed, Luke really did fall to the dark side through and through. It wasn't some sort of thing where he could switch back to the light at a moments notice. He learned dark teachings from the Emperor, and decided life and death as the Imperial Supreme Commander. Not only that, he was responsible for the deaths of countless rebels.

In some respects afterward, Luke was still very dark natured as a jedi master. If you read the Timothy Zahn books, and then the Kevin J Anderson books afterward, there is a distinct change in Luke. He's humble, but also very brooding, closed up, and almost alone. Those are the effects the dark side had on him.

 

[dustinzgirl]

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

It can be argued that that is exactly why the old order fell.

 

[C Of K]

Ha! I somehow missed this question earlier.

By the way, where is the character Kip from?

Kyp Durron is from Kevin J Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy. He's become quite a character by now.

 

[Joel007]

I think Mara Jade had a very good effect on Luke, it's possible that he was having personal crises just so the author could make the Jade-Skywalker thing work

 

[Majimaune]

Mara does do something to Luke but I haven't read any of the ones where they are married so I wont continue on that line without someone else.