GRRM confirms that fans have guessed ending!

I have read all of your evidence, but in essence you are just saying that the children of the forest have no reason to like or help humans, and that they aren't communicating with the Night's Watch. It might be that they have no way to do so. The children of the forest are not the same as the green seers or "Green Men" (who still live on the Isle of faces). There has been no evidence that the Children of the Forest are able to do waht Blood Raven does, and Bloodraven HAS been communicating with the world of men. He sent visions to Bran and Jojen, and he has made it pretty clear that Bran is important. He had bran brought to him so that Bran can serve his purpose. To you it is inconceivable that 2 factions that were at war with each other gould make pece pact, then eventually even become allies agains another force? There are countless examples of this happening in real life as well as in this series.

You youreslf said that you are choosing to ignore the fact that bran and his group were attacked by Others/Wights and that they were rescued by the Children of the Forest. If they were working together, why would the Wights be waiting to ambush the people that the Children of the Forest need?

I also wouldn't get too serious about the similarities between ASOIAF and Ragnarok. Yes, there are similiarities there, but this is a story of Martin's own telling. Odin might represent the Mad King, Blood Raven, Both or Neither. this isn't evidence of anything, but you can't ignore the similarities between BloodRaven and Odin, as I am not ignoring the similarities between the Mad King and Odin.

ArstenWhitebeard said:

I have read all of your evidence, but in essence you are just saying that the children of the forest have no reason to like or help humans, and that they aren't communicating with the Night's Watch. It might be that they have no way to do so. The children of the forest are not the same as the green seers or "Green Men" (who still live on the Isle of faces). There has been no evidence that the Children of the Forest are able to do waht Blood Raven does, and Bloodraven HAS been communicating with the world of men. He sent visions to Bran and Jojen, and he has made it pretty clear that Bran is important. He had bran brought to him so that Bran can serve his purpose. To you it is inconceivable that 2 factions that were at war with each other gould make pece pact, then eventually even become allies agains another force? There are countless examples of this happening in real life as well as in this series.

You youreslf said that you are choosing to ignore the fact that bran and his group were attacked by Others/Wights and that they were rescued by the Children of the Forest. If they were working together, why would the Wights be waiting to ambush the people that the Children of the Forest need?

I also wouldn't get too serious about the similarities between ASOIAF and Ragnarok. Yes, there are similiarities there, but this is a story of Martin's own telling. Odin might represent the Mad King, Blood Raven, Both or Neither. this isn't evidence of anything, but you can't ignore the similarities between BloodRaven and Odin, as I am not ignoring the similarities between the Mad King and Odin.

Click to expand...

Bloodraven has been communicating with those that can help him. And yes, one of those is Bran, who can be his right hand man and possibly replace him someday. He has been grooming Bran to take his place. And notice the choice of words: "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong". --Bloodraven to Bran (A Dance with Dragons, Ch. 34). Remind you of anything? When darkness gathers....they are not up there talking about sunshine and roses. This is further evidence of Bloodraven representing Loki and using darkness to work his tricks.

Bloodraven is easily one of the most powerful characters in Westeros and could reach out to the Night's Watch or the world of Men if he wanted to. I did not say that the Children could do what Bloodraven does. But they are not built into a tree like Bloodraven and could easily walk south to the Wall if they chose to do so. They fought a 2,000 year war against Men using magic and all kinds of force and now one of them can't walk down to the Wall all of a sudden? We have been shown nothing that says they have any intention of helping Men.

Nothing is "inconceivable" when it comes to alliances so I'm not sure where you got that from. I already wrote that I am not saying I am absolutely right, but you sure seem dead set on your theory. None of us know, so I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself.

The scene with the wights attacking Bran's party, I don't really understand. My guess is that they are zombielike creatures that owe allegiance to no one. They just wake up and kill. Just because they share some coldness in common with the Others does not in any way mean they work together. Martin could be hoping that you make that false assumption.

If your theory is so flawless, answer me these three basic questions.

1) If the Children are allied with Men, why did they end up isolated on the wrong side of the Wall, deep in Other territory?

2) If Bloodraven is working on the side of Men, why has he not communicated with the Night's Watch, whose mortal enemy is the Others, which Bloodraven knows all about? And why did he and Aemon never once mention one another, since they are relatives are were in the Night's Watch together?

3) Who do you think built the Wall and for what specific purpose?

I like the ending that I heard yesterday, dany wins the throne, then chats to Jamie about her dad, then renounces the throne, and travels to the ruins of Valiria, and then discovers some petrified dragon eggs, the end.

I think it would work with grrm bittersweet end, she wins the throne, maybe her dragons die in the process, then she realises westeros is a complete mess and goes to the ruins of the doom instead and finds more dragon eggs.

Fitcherman said:

Bloodraven is easily one of the most powerful characters in Westeros and could reach out to the Night's Watch or the world of Men if he wanted to...

The scene with the wights attacking Bran's party, I don't really understand. My guess is that they are zombielike creatures that owe allegiance to no one. They just wake up and kill. Just because they share some coldness in common with the Others does not in any way mean they work together. Martin could be hoping that you make that false assumption...

Click to expand...

How do you know that Bloodraven is one of the most powerful characters in Westeros?All you have seen him do is reach out to Bran and to Jojen. It is just as likely that Bloodraven can only speak with those characters that have the ability to hear his messages, otherwise why wouldnt Bloodraven ALSO speak with Meera, or why choose Jojen at all. Meera is the stronger of the 2 siblings, if he could influence her, if her mind was open to him, why bring sickly, weak Jojen along at all? To my mind, Bloodraven spoke with Jojen because Jojen has the gift of Green-Dreams, and he spoke with Bran because Bran is a warg.

for the next point, the whights might be zombielike, but they owe allegience to the Others. In the battle for the Fist of the First men, they fought alongside white walkers. they don't show that in the show, but it happens. It is also hinted in the books that the white walkers are there when Bran and his group make it to the cave and meet Leaf. We don't actually see them, but Bran remarks about how cold it is, like abnormally cold, which indicates the White Walkers are there. Lastly, if the wights are just mindless zombies, how did they mastermind the assault on the lord commander in GoT? 2 wights lay in wait until dark, waited for everyone to be asleep, then rose up and went to the Lord Commander's tower to attack him specifically. they had a mission, they are soldiers of the white walkers.

Fitcherman said:

If your theory is so flawless, answer me these three basic questions.

1) If the Children are allied with Men, why did they end up isolated on the wrong side of the Wall, deep in Other territory?

2) If Bloodraven is working on the side of Men, why has he not communicated with the Night's Watch, whose mortal enemy is the Others, which Bloodraven knows all about? And why did he and Aemon never once mention one another, since they are relatives are were in the Night's Watch together?

3) Who do you think built the Wall and for what specific purpose?

Click to expand...

Answers:

1) they chose to go beyond the wall after the long night. They had made peace with Men, but men still build castles and towns, wheras the Children of the Forest live in trees and (you guessed it) forrests. They went where there was still true wilderness to be found, just like the Giants. To them it wasn't a case of right side and wrong side. South of the wall is where Men live, North of the wall is where Magic lives.

2) we haven't seen much of Bloodraven so I'm not sure if or when he will ever talk to bran about Aemon, but Aemon spoke with Sam about bloodraven at least once, when they are travelling south together. Aemon tells sam that He and Bloodraven took their vows together and that later he became the Lord Commander. The reason he does not get mentioned more might have to do with the manner of his leaving his post of Lord Commander, considering he didn't die, he may have been perceived as a traitor.

3) We don't know specifically who built the wall, though legends say it was Bran the Builder. We do know that it wasn't as high as it currently is, as Jon Snow remarks that every lord commander before left the wall a little higher than it was then they began their command. Personally, I think the Children of the Forest had a hand it it's design, specifically in the magical runes which will not allow Coldhands through, or the magical "Black Gate" which only opens for the Night's watch.

Speaking of the wall, I would like you to consider the idea that it could be the "ice" in a song of ice and fire. A wall of ice being defnded by Dragon's fire perhaps? Unless you mean to suggest that the Wall actually belongs to the Others...

In regards to your comment about my being overly sure of myself, I would like to add that I am not so sure. Bloodraven may turn out to be less wholesome than we think. we don't know the motivation of the White Walkers or who built the wall or what is going to happen. It's not that I am so sure I am right, I just feel fairly certain that the Children of the Forests are not mastermining the destruction of the world by using White Walkers and Dragons.

1) So the Children win the war allied with Men against the Others, but then they decide to go live up north with their enemies....hmmm. That is extremely suspicious. There is just as much forested area in north Westeros as there is north of the Wall so it can't be just for that.

2) your words - "he may have been perceived as a traitor" - hmmm that is interesting. So Bloodraven works successfully as King's Hand but is disliked by the public. Banished from King's Landing, sent to the Wall. Rises to Lord Commander but then becomes a traitor to the Night's Watch and chooses to go north and live amongst the enemies of Westeros, hmmm, suspicious....and through all of this, according to you, he still wants to help the world of Men. That sure is a nice guy. Oh wait, he has been described as cold-hearted and ruthless, hmmm.

3) "Personally, I think the Children of the Forest had a hand it it's design" - You would not be alone in thinking that. After all, who are the primary users of magic in Westeros? The Children of the Forest. And when have Men ever shown the magical ability to build something as great as the Wall? So if the Children built the Wall, that takes us back to question #1. Why would they build a Wall to keep out the Others, and then put themselves on the wrong side of the Wall with their supposed enemies?

No I do not think the Wall belongs to the Others, but I do think it was likely built by the Children to keep Men out of the north and away from the Others. After all, one of the basics of warfare is to hit your enemy while they are weak. The Others have been sleeping off their defeat, at their most vulnerable, for 8,000 years. Men would have finished off the fight if they could. Why let an enemy regroup? Perhaps there was a Wall in their way....

I am not expecting to convince you because it is obvious you are dug in to your position. But this is just something to think on. Only time will tell.

Boaz said:

I would never attempt ASOIAF while getting my doctorate! I did not read for pleasure when I was working on my master's. ASOS was indeed a high water mark for the series... so many plots came together and felt resolved... or at least semi-resolved. Maybe it was just that we all finally exhaled or stood up and cheered at the Royal Wedding. And then the tension built back up for the trial and then was relieved in the escape.

I enjoyed the Dragonlance novels when I was nineteen or twenty. Tas was a riot. Tanis and the others were trying to do some good and survive, while Raistlin tried to go off and rule the universe from beyond the grave! Weis, Hickman, Feist, Wurts, McCaffery, Herbert were among the authors that moved me from Tolkien, Lewis, and Howard to beyond the Tolkien clones... But I cannot read ASOIAF like I read Archie, Garfield, or The Wheel of Time. There are too many connections from book to book. Martin has laid down so many hints and clues in the first three books that I end up endlessly comparing characters and plots. I'm sure GRRM feels like he's already said the big line, "I see dead people", but I still have not figured it out. I'll probably be shocked at the end.

Click to expand...

Yeah, in retrospect I probably did it a disservice. It was mixed in with a lot of hard-boiled (but breezy) detective fiction and Jim Butcher. Those were very light-hearted; I think the darkest thing I read was Abercrombie, who despite being grim is not as dense or intricately plotted as GRRM. I plowed through ASOIAF reading for plot and characters and missed a lot of the nuance. Still, the fact that it's been 5 years and I still think about them and want to give them another go is promising. Just ordered the set from Amazon, so once I'm done with Dragonlance I'm going to alternate Harry Potter and ASOIAF.

Just as long as you did not do yourself a disservice...

SPOILER ALERT!!! SERIOUSLY MASSIVE SPOILER ALERT FOR ADWD!!!

Boaz said:

Now the Red Priests also have a mission and they've already outlined who they think are the heretics and heathen... the Others. In fact, one of their best is already on a quest to defeat them. Melisandre has a king, a magic sword, and an army. Oh, by the way... the main weapon of R'hllor is fire. So what if the Others are just defending their land from foreign intervention? What if they just want to push the humans back beyond the Wall? What if they have no intention of crossing the Wall? What will Melisandre do if the Others are content to just stay on their side?

Edit: What I'm saying is that I think Melisandre and the Queen's Men are the wrong sort of people to be involved in solving this crisis. She's already lied to Stannis about Mance and murdered Rattleshirt.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this post of mine. And today I ran across a post I made in Is God real in Game of Thrones? in the AGOT TV forum. In that thread, I wonder... if Melisandre is evil... then can we really label the Others as evil?

I'm beginning to suspect that Martin has foreshadowed the entire supernatural story with the basic Stark vs. Lannister plot.

AGOT opens with various Stark POVs. Eddard, Bran, Catelyn, Arya, and Jon all present the Starks as hard working, noble, conscientious, and fair minded people. They also label the Lannisters as arrogant, lecherous, and avaricious. But after the advent of Tyrion's POVs these views subtly shift... we see nobility and compassion in Tyrion. And later Stark POVs show Catelyn in an unflattering light and expose Eddard's mistakes. After we get Jaime's POVs we think the Lannisters have been misunderstood in some ways. Of course, then we get Cersei's POVs which immediately confirms all the Stark suspicions.

So... what if the perspectives of the Starks, Old Nan, the NW, the Wildlings, and Melisandre are wrong? What if the Others are not bloodthirsty demons, but patriots? What if they just want their land back? What if they have no intention of crossing the Wall? What if The Other views Melisandre's fulfilling of prophecy as a declaration of war? What if The Other views the Wildlings as alien squatters on his territory?

Could Bran tap into the real opinions of The Other? Could Jon's death put him in a place with which to commune with the Others? Will we get their side of the story soon? Will GRRM make a precarious balance between Children, Human, and Others necessary for the world's survival?

What if the Others just want the restoration of pre-Dawn-of-History boundaries? Who was Brandon the Builder? What did he know of The Other? What did Brandon do? Why was the Wall built? Was the Wall built to keep the Others out or to keep Humans out?

I apologize for not having any conclusions at this time. About seven years ago, I tried to organize a unified theory that united all of the prophecies through Aerys II and the number seven, but I failed. As usual, I feel that I'm on to something... that GRRM has put something just out of reach... and that if I can just clear my head... if I can just give my subconscious room to breathe, I'll discover the hidden connections and figure out the ending.

Boaz said:

SPOILER ALERT!!! SERIOUSLY MASSIVE SPOILER ALERT FOR ADWD!!!

I've been thinking about this post of mine. And today I ran across a post I made in Is God real in Game of Thrones? in the AGOT TV forum. In that thread, I wonder... if Melisandre is evil... then can we really label the Others as evil?

I'm beginning to suspect that Martin has foreshadowed the entire supernatural story with the basic Stark vs. Lannister plot.

AGOT opens with various Stark POVs. Eddard, Bran, Catelyn, Arya, and Jon all present the Starks as hard working, noble, conscientious, and fair minded people. They also label the Lannisters as arrogant, lecherous, and avaricious. But after the advent of Tyrion's POVs these views subtly shift... we see nobility and compassion in Tyrion. And later Stark POVs show Catelyn in an unflattering light and expose Eddard's mistakes. After we get Jaime's POVs we think the Lannisters have been misunderstood in some ways. Of course, then we get Cersei's POVs which immediately confirms all the Stark suspicions.

So... what if the perspectives of the Starks, Old Nan, the NW, the Wildlings, and Melisandre are wrong? What if the Others are not bloodthirsty demons, but patriots? What if they just want their land back? What if they have no intention of crossing the Wall? What if The Other views Melisandre's fulfilling of prophecy as a declaration of war? What if The Other views the Wildlings as alien squatters on his territory?

Could Bran tap into the real opinions of The Other? Could Jon's death put him in a place with which to commune with the Others? Will we get their side of the story soon? Will GRRM make a precarious balance between Children, Human, and Others necessary for the world's survival?

What if the Others just want the restoration of pre-Dawn-of-History boundaries? Who was Brandon the Builder? What did he know of The Other? What did Brandon do? Why was the Wall built? Was the Wall built to keep the Others out or to keep Humans out?

I apologize for not having any conclusions at this time. About seven years ago, I tried to organize a unified theory that united all of the prophecies through Aerys II and the number seven, but I failed. As usual, I feel that I'm on to something... that GRRM has put something just out of reach... and that if I can just clear my head... if I can just give my subconscious room to breathe, I'll discover the hidden connections and figure out the ending.

Click to expand...

That is one of the main ideas I have been arguing over the last few pages of this discussion. That the Others are not some evil race or anything. They are just one of the oldest races of beings in Westeros along with the Children of the Forest, and that they will align with each other and some other groups, to get one last chance to win back Westeros.

I have said that I think Bloodraven has been working with the Others and the Children of the Forest and in time, Bran will do the same.

I have argued that the Wall was built by the Children to keep humans out of the North. To keep them from finishing off the Others while they were weak. This is the exact opposite of the common belief that the Wall was made by humans to keep the Others out and so I have been called crazy on here by people like Arsten.

But this theory follows the trend of what George Martin has been doing all along. He makes you think one thing and then you find out you were completely wrong about it all. And there is plenty of evidence for this theory sprinkled in amongst the pages of his books.

If anyone ever wants to see this theory in full, I can link you to this guy's page where he absolutely changed the way I thought about A Song of Ice and Fire. He calls himself Dorian the Historian and he is big into Norse Mythology, which George Martin draws heavily upon.

Fitcherman said:

If anyone ever wants to see this theory in full, I can link you to this guy's page where he absolutely changed the way I thought about A Song of Ice and Fire. He calls himself Dorian the Historian and he is big into Norse Mythology, which George Martin draws heavily upon.

Click to expand...

I think we've seen that link before, but you're welcome to repost it in this thread - at the very least, it should provide some invigorating discussion.

In fact - it might even be better as a completely new thread - Interpreting ASoIaF with Norse Mythology, or something similarly descriptive, so that other members know what they're getting into.

Yeah that's a good idea. I've never posted the link on here, and I've never seen it, but maybe it was on here a while back before I joined....

Here is the link:

http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.com/

I've never started a thread on here, but you could start one if you want and use that link.

I think the Dorian the Historian guy takes it a bit too far with his Norse connections as far as which ASOIAF characters = which Norse characters and who is going to end up killing who, but some of it could be true. I think his best post is the one about Loki's tricks and the Children of the Forest. That is the one where he talked about the Children working with Bloodraven and the Others to take revenge on Mankind.

Fitcherman said:

I have argued that the Wall was built by the Children to keep humans out of the North. To keep them from finishing off the Others while they were weak. This is the exact opposite of the common belief that the Wall was made by humans to keep the Others out and so I have been called crazy on here by people like Arsten.

Click to expand...

I never said you were crazy, I just don't think you are right.

It does make for an interesting theory and I will admit that there is some small indications that things may not be as they seem, but if the "Bittersweet Ending" that Martin is talking about is that the Other's kill everyone (bitter), but it turns out they were the good guys all along (sweet), I might burn all my books and shun all of martin's work from here on out.

Too harsh?

I don't think the Others, Bloodraven, and the Children will succeed. I think the bittersweet ending will be that they put up a good fight but Men unite to defeat them, and we lost even more of our favorites characters in the process.

So the Bittersweet ending is that blundering, stupid humans purposely wipe out all the magic of the world? That actually makes sense.

Kinda reminds of the Lord of the Rings.... vaguely.

I still can't see the Children of the Forest working alongside the Others. Granted we don't know much about the Others, so we might just be perceiving them as evil when really they might not be. But an undeniable fact is that they use dead things to do their bidding, where the children of the forest worship life and growth.

although....

it occurs to me as I type this that Bloodraven and the Children of the Forest had their own Wight, named Coldhands.

My own theory is "screw Azor Ahai, I want a team of super friends representing The Seven".

Just in case you were wondering (you weren't, but who cares)

The Father: Tyrion, because why not?

The Mother: It would just make my day for this to be Cersei after learning a little compassion after all her humiliation. But it'll probably be Dany, the mother of freaking dragons.

The Warrior: I originally picked Jon for The Father, but The Warrior seems more his style.

The Maiden: Sansa, duh.

The Smith: Sam is currently forging his chain as a Maester.

The Crone: The Crone represents wisdom so it could be Varys.

The Stranger: Bran and Arya are both pretty strange.

Super friends?

Why not Tyrion? Well, just off the top of my head.... none of his hundreds (maybe even thousands) of couplings have resulted in a child.

Cersei is a mother... well, technically she's the Auntie Mother. (I hope Ursa Major reads this. My first pun in nine years...)

I agree that Jon has the same basic problem to qualify for the Father as Tyrion. As for the Warrior, is it his going AWOL or the execution of his hero or his utter dependence upon his direwolf to win his fights or assaulting an officer or the sparing of a foe that got his entire squad killed or his botched assassination of the enemy king or having his war won by Stannis or allowing the Wildlings to settle on his lands or his complete renunciation of his vows that makes Jon fit for this title?

Sansa will not be a maiden for long.

The Smith is a worker. If reading, eating, and lusting after inbred hillbilly girls is work, then Sam's the man.

I'll bet Varys has bigger teats than Sansa, Margaery, Dany, and Cersei combined.

Bran and Arya are strange. But the Stranger is not weird, just an outsider... an unexpected, and most likely, unwelcome guest.

All kidding aside, this is not a bad idea.

Seven is the number of...
Kingdoms of Westeros.
Eddard and his companions.
Starks at Winterfell at the beginning.
Arianne and her companions.
The sons of Quellon Greyjoy.
Kingsguard members.
Small Council members.
Lords Declarant.
People alive in Winterfell when Bran came out of the crypt.
Gates of King's Landing.
Cersei's lovers.
Males in the Seven Kingdoms to call themselves King since the death of Robert.
POV characters to survive AGOT.
Brand new POV characters to survive AFFC.
Bran chapters in AGOT.
Bran chapters in ACOK.
Catelyn chapters in ACOK.
Sansa chapters in ASOS.
Jaime chapters in AFFC.
Theon chapters in ADWD.

SPOILER ALERT!!! ADWD.

I actually tried to put this list together, years ago, as the children of the Mad King...

The Father: Rhaegar. He tried to usher in a new order.
The Mother: Daenerys. Dragons.
The Warrior: Jaeme. He's a killer.
The Maiden: Viserys. A dreamer. Never really shown the right path...
The Smith: Tyraen. Builder of chains. Employer of fire. Forger of alliances.
The Crone: Caersei. An embittered, alcoholic, and paranoid hag. She was never innocent.
The Stranger: Jaen. His best friend is a direwolf. And now he's dead... but he will return. A real outsider.

It was the foundation of my Unified Theory of Everything... that came to nothing.

I have to agree with the theory that the Others will end up being the "good guys". I think Jon Snow will be resurrected one way or another and eventually become the champion of the Others, seize control of their army and lead the epic fight against Dany and her dragons. I think the Wall is housing an ice dragon and Bran will warg to help Jon and the Other army. I think there has been a secret alliance between the Starks and the Others all along. Brandon the builder most likely built the wall to hold the dragon, not to keep the others from coming south. Why else would the nights king run the nights watch for 13 years with the nights queen from a fort south of the wall? The books keep referring to the Starks as the Kings of Winter, and I believe most of the white walkers are Stark descendants.

This basically means Rhollor is the god of darkness and Dany his champion who will lead the destruction and impending doom of westeros. Jon and the Starks will win, hence Dany's vision of snow falling in the iron throne room.

Theres your bittersweet ending.

Boaz said:

Seven is the number of...
Kingdoms of Westeros.
Eddard and his companions.
Starks at Winterfell at the beginning.
Arianne and her companions.
The sons of Quellon Greyjoy.
Kingsguard members.
Small Council members.
Lords Declarant.
People alive in Winterfell when Bran came out of the crypt.
Gates of King's Landing.
Cersei's lovers.
Males in the Seven Kingdoms to call themselves King since the death of Robert.
POV characters to survive AGOT.
Brand new POV characters to survive AFFC.
Bran chapters in AGOT.
Bran chapters in ACOK.
Catelyn chapters in ACOK.
Sansa chapters in ASOS.
Jaime chapters in AFFC.
Theon chapters in ADWD.

Click to expand...

Number of Davos Seaworth's Sons
Number of Hostages Dany gave to the Yunkish
The number of Aegon and his Companions on the Shy Maid (before and after Tyrion was with them)
The number of direwolves we've seen in the story (including the dead mother of the rest)

Sevens...

Arsten! You're at 666 posts! Quickly post for 66Seven!

AH! Seven!