Villeneuve's Dune: Part Two (2024)

[Swank]

Well, I spent months reading and re-reading Dune, understanding it, and wrote 6 articles (can find'em on Booksie by my nickname). So, consider me sorta dunologist.

Movie is a bad idea from the start. Dune is not for mass audience - it requires particular interests and at least some education in philosophy, politics, cybernetics. And if you want to make a movie, but without the original ideas... then what's the point? Money. And that's what it is - attraction with fresh kinky stuff to entertain professional consumers. As many of them as possible, as it makes cash.

Brutality of the ruling class, arrogance and nobility, undisguised religious manipulations, trick-inside-trick-inside-trick intrigues of clans fighting for power, statements against law and government - everything is wiped off and turned into polit-correct fairytale. Herbert would not know to laugh or to cry, because what corporations are doing to Dune is exactly what he meant, when he wrote about aristocracy, its greed and manipulations.

This is a little much. I don't recall having much education in philosophy, politics or cybernetics(?) when I first read it at 12, yet I still understood what I was reading.

Dune is science fiction. The author speculates about possible versions of government and human capacity to craft a compelling fiction story. The answers to why Rome fell are not contained within, even if the nature of that sort of problem is reflected upon. The book is entertainment of a mature kind, but still entertainment.

Films adapted from books require changes to make the story useful in a different media. I see all sorts of "failings" that occured in that process, but I also see that many of those changes help bridge the loss of the written word and set up the conflicts of the book in a manner that are digestible during the running time of the films - allowing them to remain entertainment.



Overall, I think too many people want to attach special meaning to Dune. It isn't a story about any one thing (certainly not destiny - a popular claim), but a rich fiction that borrows from all sorts of sources to reward the reader's attention. The new films found a way to reward the viewer, which is no small feat.

 

[Baldanders]

This is a little much. I don't recall having much education in philosophy, politics or cybernetics(?) when I first read it at 12, yet I still understood what I was reading.

Dune is science fiction. The author speculates about possible versions of government and human capacity to craft a compelling fiction story. The answers to why Rome fell are not contained within, even if the nature of that sort of problem is reflected upon. The book is entertainment of a mature kind, but still entertainment.

Films adapted from books require changes to make the story useful in a different media. I see all sorts of "failings" that occured in that process, but I also see that many of those changes help bridge the loss of the written word and set up the conflicts of the book in a manner that are digestible during the running time of the films - allowing them to remain entertainment.



Overall, I think too many people want to attach special meaning to Dune. It isn't a story about any one thing (certainly not destiny - a popular claim), but a rich fiction that borrows from all sorts of sources to reward the reader's attention. The new films found a way to reward the viewer, which is no small feat.

Not to torture anyone, short explanation of Dune:

Human society is a growing complexity system, in which freedom (energy) of every person becomes more and more limited due to growing scale of class wars. Everyone is trying to get more energy (freedom) to live better, but energy doesn't come from nowhere - it can only be taken from someone. With this in mind, aristocracy = elites = government only care about themselves, they produce comfortable for them mechanisms of control over the society, to consume more energy from ordinary people. This consumption of energy (achieved through religion, law, economics, politics, technology, etc.) turns humanity into a rigid static structure, which is not able to evolve = solve problems. Chaotic dance of universe, however, continues and brings changes, which beat the society badly, provoking bigger and bigger catastrophes. Bene Gesserit decided to solve this problem, by creating an ultimate intelligence - a person, who can process colossal amount of historical information and understand where the entire system goes (foresight), to be able to control it (which cybernetics - science about systems - study). But when Kwisatz Haderach showed up, it appeared that intelligence is also not perfect, the system remains explosive. And the next generations of Atreides come to idea that control must only be partial - one must dance with the chaos of universe (Siaynoq) and use intelligence to control circumstances, when it's possible. Not to be the hostage of circumstances, but also not to paralyze yourself with ultimate control. To remain free and successful.

Thus, all six books are talking about the same one special thing. This deep and complex idea of freedom-control balance, when you understand it in Dune, changes your vision of human society and your place in it. And this is what made Dune great. By the way, the idea of balance is presented in the first book through Kynes's statements (especially, the appendix part of the book). But do you see any of this in the movie?

P.S. and Dune also answer why Rome fell. Democracy of the Roman Empire had a purpose to achieve total control. But with the empire growing, complexity of the system grew too. Control mechanism complexity grew too, until the point, when it became unbearable (Odrade promises the same for Honored Matres, so I'm not taking it from my head, and Herbert didn't invent it from nowhere - just took from history). For those who're interested, America solved this problem by creating democracy through representatives. Instead of permanently growing control system, Americans created a comparatively short number of elected politicians, who can reflect the state of the country with precision enough to make the system work.

 

[Swank]

Not to torture anyone, short explanation of Dune:

Human society is a growing complexity system, in which freedom (energy) of every person becomes more and more limited due to growing scale of class wars. Everyone is trying to get more energy (freedom) to live better, but energy doesn't come from nowhere - it can only be taken from someone. With this in mind, aristocracy = elites = government only care about themselves, they produce comfortable for them mechanisms of control over the society, to consume more energy from ordinary people. This consumption of energy (achieved through religion, law, economics, politics, technology, etc.) turns humanity into a rigid static structure, which is not able to evolve = solve problems. Chaotic dance of universe, however, continues and brings changes, which beat the society badly, provoking bigger and bigger catastrophes. Bene Gesserit decided to solve this problem, by creating an ultimate intelligence - a person, who can process colossal amount of historical information and understand where the entire system goes (foresight), to be able to control it (which cybernetics - science about systems - study). But when Kwisatz Haderach showed up, it appeared that intelligence is also not perfect, the system remains explosive. And the next generations of Atreides come to idea that control must only be partial - one must dance with the chaos of universe (Siaynoq) and use intelligence to control circumstances, when it's possible. Not to be the hostage of circumstances, but also not to paralyze yourself with ultimate control. To remain free and successful.

Thus, all six books are talking about the same one special thing. This deep and complex idea of freedom-control balance, when you understand it in Dune, changes your vision of human society and your place in it. And this is what made Dune great. By the way, the idea of balance is presented in the first book through Kynes's statements (especially, the appendix part of the book). But do you see any of this in the movie?

P.S. and Dune also answer why Rome fell. Democracy of the Roman Empire had a purpose to achieve total control. But with the empire growing, complexity of the system grew too. Control mechanism complexity grew too, until the point, when it became unbearable (Odrade promises the same for Honored Matres, so I'm not taking it from my head, and Herbert didn't invent it from nowhere - just took from history). For those who're interested, America solved this problem by creating democracy through representatives. Instead of permanently growing control system, Americans created a comparatively short number of elected politicians, who can reflect the state of the country with precision enough to make the system work.

That isn't what Dune is "about". It is an aspect that the characters reflect on.

At the beginning, the Empire is essentially stable and has been for millennia. The BG do not seek to change that balance, they are just interested in creating the obvious solution to the limitations of their powers - not destabilize everything including their own power structure.



Dune is adamantly not about one thing.

 

[Dave]

There are many different theories why the Rome Empire "fell" but the chemist in me likes the one that they were drinking wine sweetened with Lead Acetate best. But did it fall or just have a managed decline? It got split into two parts. Both parts continued to have wide political and religious influence, the western half still wields Papal supremacy even today. Anyway, nothing to do with Dune, and let's also keep away from a discussion of US politics please.

 

[Toby Frost]

It got split into two parts.

Just like Dune!

Anyway, nobody has mentioned the yellow-booted elephant in the room: where is Tom Bombadil? No, wait, that's another adaptation...

 

[Foxbat]

The DVD comes out on Monday and I've got it on pre-order

 

[ctg]

The DVD comes out on Monday and I've got it on pre-order

Does it have extras?

 

[Foxbat]

Does it have extras?

I have no idea, but part one came with extras so I’d assume part two will be the same

 

[Swank]

I have no idea, but part one came with extras so I’d assume part two will be the same

Scratch and sniff stillsuit stickers?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Generally enjoyed it. I think overall it's an excellent adaptation of Dune with only a few minor changes which made better sense (IIRC Jamis' wife, Alia not killing the Baron, etc). However, however, however, what really struck me was the complete lack of colour in the two films - everything was biege. Until we went to the Harkonnen home world where everything was effectively black and white - such a contrast to Lawrence of Arabia where the arabs are portrated with so much colour, though my eldest argued that the Fremen probably didn't have many options for colour with their limited resources, plus Arabia was at a major trading crossroads, so point taken.

When I saw the original trailers I wasn't in the least bit excited - I thought they'd change a lot and focus on battle scenes and it would be a car crash of a pair of films. Instead, I was very pleasantly surprised - it was a pretty faithful adaptation with gorgeous cinematography and a great soundtrack. I've now bought digital copies of both part one and two, and feel pretty assured this is going to be a classic pair of films. Regardless, I'm going to enjoy re-watching them again in future.

 

[Swank]

Fremen probably didn't have many options for colour

Fremen trade off world, and Herbert's Eye and other sources show richly colored robes. I don't think color would have been out of place.

 

[Baldanders]

They are just interested in creating the obvious solution to the limitations of their powers - not destabilize everything
Sorry, what?????

From the very first scenes we learn that BG's goal is politics. The entire BG campaign on Arrakis was preparation for revolution. By your opinion they produced religion, raised millions of Fremen fanatic soldiers, spread the myth about messiah, leader, liberator... to keep the existing order of things??? Really? And how Fremen fanatics help BG to overcome human abilities I wonder?

BG's goal was destabilization and the Golden Path - The Tyrant's message in the stash reminds them about it and proposes to return to this plan. Because it was the only way to change humanity, its fundamental structure. And they achieved it, opened the system - caused Scattering, but pretty soon lack of control and unlimited amounts of "energy" produced new dominators = government: Honored Matres, No-Ships, new generations of Tleilaxu, Marti with Daniel, etc. Which again returns the story to the question "control or freedom?". All the story is about this one question.

That isn't what Dune is "about". It is an aspect that the characters reflect on.
Yes, it's what Dune is about. There are 19 statements about energy: 3 of them are in the first book, 1 in the second, 5 in the third and so on. Through politics, economics, ecology and religion, they describe one idea, which is consistently developed by Herbert. The movie is about "many things" - just a bunch of elements, poorly connected to each other. But the book is consistent, and this is the main problem: Villeneuve's scenarists have no idea what they are making the movie about. They only exploit the Dune universe.

 

[Foxbat]

Here's the way I see it.

The Bene Gesserit do not prepare for revolution. They prepare for control. That's why they have the Kwisatz Haderach breeding programme. They wish to create a person who can control the empire and who, in turn, can be controlled by them. They don't need a revolution. They can guide Humanity through controlling the existing empire in secret.

It's stated in various books that the reason they create religion based on the messiah myth is to build safe places for their missionaries. Members of the Sisterhood know the details of the myth and can use it to their advantage by acting out parts of the story to ingratiate themselves with the local population. Jessica does this to a certain extent when she and Paul first encounter the Fremen. Even the Fremen's own type of reverend mother (Sayadina) is revealed to be a Bene gesserit plant when she and Jessica meet in private.

The whole point of the Golden Path is to create diversity and to stop Humanity reaching an evloutionary cul de sac. It achieves this through the scattering but, just like the Bene Gesserit found with their Kwisatz Haderach, the results are beyond control.

I get the impression that perhaps Herbert was trying to tell us that control is the real myth.

 

[Baldanders]

I get the impression that perhaps Herbert was trying to tell us that control is the real myth.

Exactly! Freedom seems to be also a bad option, as Scattering (who didn't have any control) returned as a terrible power, who wants to establish new control. Dynamic balance between control and freedom seems to be Herbert's answer.

About revolution I still do not agree though. BG didn't want jihad - yes. But why wouldn't they save Paul from Arrakis? He had an option to run from the Imperium with contrabandists, right? I guess if BG would want, they could save him from Arrakis and secretly use him to lead.

I think instead, they wanted him to use Fremen and take control over spice. Even after Paul became emperor, Tleilaxu, Corrino and Spacing Guild continued plotting against him, and he wasn't able to... you know, just break them. He had to weave intrigues (which costed him a lot, including Chani). So, it's not enough to have Kwisatz Haderach - you must force everyone to listen to him. The Tyrant implemented this plan, by taking full control over spice (while Paul was trying to be a good guy, who shares and finds compromises, he denied Golden Path) - he suppressed everyone through spice and directed humanity as it was needed. So... I think BG wanted revolution, the problem is that Paul didn't take part in their plan (he says it by himself in the end of the first book). But the Tyrant realized the plan as BG originally plotted it.

But control, yes, that's Herbert's point without any doubts. Actually, out of interest, I just took a look at the first scene of Dune and the last scene of Chapterhouse: Dune. And they both are talking about control and directing. One more proof that the book is indeed consistent.

 

[Swank]

They are just interested in creating the obvious solution to the limitations of their powers - not destabilize everything
Sorry, what?????

From the very first scenes we learn that BG's goal is politics. The entire BG campaign on Arrakis was preparation for revolution. By your opinion they produced religion, raised millions of Fremen fanatic soldiers, spread the myth about messiah, leader, liberator... to keep the existing order of things??? Really? And how Fremen fanatics help BG to overcome human abilities I wonder?

BG's goal was destabilization and the Golden Path - The Tyrant's message in the stash reminds them about it and proposes to return to this plan. Because it was the only way to change humanity, its fundamental structure. And they achieved it, opened the system - caused Scattering, but pretty soon lack of control and unlimited amounts of "energy" produced new dominators = government: Honored Matres, No-Ships, new generations of Tleilaxu, Marti with Daniel, etc. Which again returns the story to the question "control or freedom?". All the story is about this one question.

That isn't what Dune is "about". It is an aspect that the characters reflect on.
Yes, it's what Dune is about. There are 19 statements about energy: 3 of them are in the first book, 1 in the second, 5 in the third and so on. Through politics, economics, ecology and religion, they describe one idea, which is consistently developed by Herbert. The movie is about "many things" - just a bunch of elements, poorly connected to each other. But the book is consistent, and this is the main problem: Villeneuve's scenarists have no idea what they are making the movie about. They only exploit the Dune universe.

That's incorrect.

The BG planted prophecy and the like all over the empire by the Missionary Protectiva to serve as ready made tools to protect Sisters isolated in closed societies. This has nothing to do with the Kwisat Hederach program.


Dune is the story of a number of coinciding events and unforseen circumstances that accidentally put the KW at the fulcrum of imperial power right as the emperor is attempting to quash a potential power imbalance in the Landsraad and CHOAM.


Jessica made use of the artificial prophecy to protect her and Paul, then they leveraged it to turn the Fremen.



It is a gross misread to say that the BG was looking for any sort of imperial revolution or any situation that would degrade their influence or access to spice.



The Golden Path was Leto II's invention, not the BG.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Anyway...it would be good to keep this thread on topic - specifically the movie Dune, Part 2. @Baldanders we have a dedicated board for all kind of Drank Herbert discussion: Frank Herbert

 

[Baldanders]

That's incorrect.

The BG planted prophecy and the like all over the empire by the Missionary Protectiva to serve as ready made tools to protect Sisters isolated in closed societies. This has nothing to do with the Kwisat Hederach program.


Dune is the story of a number of coinciding events and unforseen circumstances that accidentally put the KW at the fulcrum of imperial power right as the emperor is attempting to quash a potential power imbalance in the Landsraad and CHOAM.


Jessica made use of the artificial prophecy to protect her and Paul, then they leveraged it to turn the Fremen.



It is a gross misread to say that the BG was looking for any sort of imperial revolution or any situation that would degrade their influence or access to spice.



The Golden Path was Leto II's invention, not the BG.

You're going against the text all the time. Read the episode when Paul talks to Mohaim at the end of the first book - everything is crystal clear. The movie too says that BG "planted superstitions" about the liberator:

Chani's behavior (only in the movie) states the same, and she repeats it all the time! The myth about the liberator is artificially planted among Fremen:

In the scene with Paul taking the lead of Fremen, Chani also shouts: "This prophecy is how they enslave us!" Both the movie and the book state that the myth about the liberator Kwisatz Haderach (Lisan al-Gaib) comes from Bene Gesserit. If they didn't plan the revolution, why they spread the myth about it???

And Sisters don't need any protection - they act openly, having envoys in every fraction of the universe. Harkonnens, Atreides, Corrino - BG is everywhere, and everyone knows about it. I don't think there is at least a single scene in the book or movies, which hints that someone is against BG. Honored Matres were, but they show up thousands of years later, and they are different. Even Baron Harkonnen with all of his eccentricity assures BG that he'll not go against their interests (yes, he actually does, but he doesn't dare to oppose them openly).

But, yes, let's get closer to the movie, I have more to say. See how Paul behaves here? Arrogant and subjugative, he knows exactly who's Mohaim, but he's trying to de-class her. Because he knows his family are nobles, and no one is allowed to talk to them like Mohaim does.

Right? Now remember how young Fremen laugh at Paul and say that he's mother is stupid enough to drink the Water.

Scenarists decided to invent and add this scene, but they are not even close to understanding the character. Paul is tough with Mohaim, who can really kill him without efforts (because she can control him with Voice), but he behaves like 8th grade boy in a new school, when Fremen teens laugh at him (and it's after he killed Jamis). Even without remembering Herbert's writing, the movie is bad, because it is inconsistent to itself.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Both the movie and the book state that the myth about the liberator Kwisatz Haderach (Lisan al-Gaib) comes from Bene Gesserit. If they didn't plan the revolution, why they spread the myth about it???

The Bene Gesserit have planted these myths all over in order to provide a refuge for any Bene Gesserit who finds they need to utilize it for their survival. Which is precisely what Jessica and Paul do.

Although Jessica believes Paul might be the Kwisatz Haderach, she does so against the will of the BG, who certainly don't believe the Fremen have any part to play in such a figure - otherwise they would have pushed to engineer their KH directly among them. The BGs don't, because the Fremen prophecy is just one of many myths they have planted for the protection of any BG in need, nothing more.

And Sisters don't need any protection - they act openly

Jessica's Harkonnen bloodline is a clear example of them operating in secret behind the scenes, and in the film at least Princess Irulan's BG identity is specifically mentioned as a secret to be kept from her father. Additionally, in the film the destruction of House Atreides is claimed to have been entirely engineered by the BG - and as you point out, although Baron Harkonnen is asked to spare the mother and son, he has no intention of doing so. Clearly the BG are not acting openly, and clearly they cannot trust the various houses to protect them - hence why they have seeded myths around the populated planets to give them protection as and when required.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Well, I spent months reading and re-reading Dune, understanding it, and wrote 6 articles (can find'em on Booksie by my nickname). So, consider me sorta dunologist.

Well, many of us have read and re-read Dune over many years and watched multiple film adaptations (don't forget the TV series) and have spent decades discussing them with friends and online. So, no offense, you've got some catching up to do.

 

[Swank]

Both the movie and the book state that the myth about the liberator Kwisatz Haderach (Lisan al-Gaib) comes from Bene Gesserit.

The Lisan al-Gaib and the Kwisatz Haderach are unrelated.

The liberator is a general utility prophecy that the BG installs in lots of cultures to be used if needed to sway a populace. BG operatives just need to slot someone who acts the right way into the society and then reap the rewards of a ready made group of believers. Paul and Jessica take advantage of that by fitting themselves to certain parts of the legend, and then embracing the Fremen's ecological project. That has nothing to do with being able to see the future or past. (Though Paul's dreams have made it easier - he already knows how to wear of stillsuit as Kines observes.) A second sort of implanted BG protection is the Sayadinia, who function enough like the BG to readily accept BG sisters into their ranks - that isn't just a happy accident for Jessica. But the BG probably didn't expect the Fremen to make their own Reverend Mothers, which is why Jessica didn't recognize that was what was happening until too late.

The KW is an internal BG project to make a super-Reverend Mother.


The BG is an advisory organization that provides several specific kinds of service (Soothsaying, tutelage) and a kind of backdoor ambassadorial work. Everyone is aware that they have their own motivations and secrets, but some houses choose to warily embrace them for their usefulness (Atreides, Corrino), while the more mischievous Harkonnen, Bene Tleilax, Guild etc keep them out because they don't trust them and/or have secrets to preserve.


In the case of Paul, the BG has two masters - supporting the status quo, as personified by Mohaim; and seeing through the KW project. Paul is largely viewed as a dead end - one generation too early. It is also interesting to consider how Paul was supposed to be female and bred with Feyd - suggesting that the BG was ultimately hoping to align these enemy houses with a marriage.