Are there any unusual foods or growing circumstances in your world?

[Bramandin]

In mine, the fare in one village is fairly normal for medieval times, though not limited to european foods. However, there is a settlement where most of the people live and work in a coal mine where most of the tunnels have been used up. There is a bit of walled-off area, and a dangerous stretch outside the wall, but mostly food is produced underground. The staple diet is based on mushrooms, potatoes and other root-crops grown under artificial lights, worms, bugs, rats, and various sprouts. No seed is ground into flour or eaten, it's all devoted to wheatgrass and bean sprouts.

 

[Swank]

In mine, the fare in one village is fairly normal for medieval times, though not limited to european foods. However, there is a settlement where most of the people live and work in a coal mine where most of the tunnels have been used up. There is a bit of walled-off area, and a dangerous stretch outside the wall, but mostly food is produced underground. The staple diet is based on mushrooms, potatoes and other root-crops grown under artificial lights, worms, bugs, rats, and various sprouts. No seed is ground into flour or eaten, it's all devoted to wheatgrass and bean sprouts.

How does that further your plot?

 

[AnRoinnUltra]

Interesting stuff, I'm trying to do sort of the opposite and have a simple easy to cook recipe at the start of each chapter. The plot has an intergalactic food critic who documents them. Want to have one that represents each geographical part of the world, but with plain ingredients and something the reader could knock together handily enough. The underground growing thing sounds complex, it'd be interesting to see how they balance out the vitamins/ minerals etc. to keep things going -I've come across a few SF stories where the protagonists are generations into a galactic voyage with no obvious side effects. Best of luck with it.

 

[Bramandin]

How does that further your plot?

How did several pages of listing scientific names of fish compared to the rough sailor "you can eat that" or "you can't eat that" further the plot of the original 20,000 leagues under the sea?

I was just reading Briar's book of The Circle Opens and I guess that food-obsession is rubbing off on me. Except the base fanfiction had its food moments too and I did that before rereading that book. I guess I'm just having a Wormhole Extreme moment.

Martin: Whoa, whoa, whoa... what is that?
Prop Guy: It's fruit. Scene 23.
Martin: Okay, Scene 23 takes place on another planet ... so you think aliens eat apples?
Prop Guy: Why not? They speak English.

I dunno, maybe trade with the techno-elves means they can shift their potato-growing facilities into hothouse tomatoes, then sanctions against them for being religious could be a plot point.

I was a little bored last night as in I didn't want to do anything productive like play video games.

 

[Swank]

How did several pages of listing scientific names of fish compared to the rough sailor "you can eat that" or "you can't eat that" further the plot of the original 20,000 leagues under the sea?

It didn't.

I doubt 20,000 Leagues would have been published today in its original form because it is so boring. Are you trying to write books for the 19th century?

 

[Wayne Mack]

I have an ongoing fixation with coffee in my stories. In my first, coffee was not grown on an off-Earth world and it was not considered important enough to justify transport costs. Instead, they relied on teas made from local plants and roots. In the second, I came up with a coffee maker and coffee mugs that worked in zero. In the third, I have an off-world planet and there are trade restrictions imposed by Earth and coffee does not get imported.

In general, I feel off-Earth cuisine would be limited to plants and animals that are raised on planet. Spices and herbs are limited and tropical-style plants cannot be grown in temperate climates (no bananas, etc.).

 

[Bramandin]

I have an ongoing fixation with coffee in my stories. In my first, coffee was not grown on an off-Earth world and it was not considered important enough to justify transport costs. Instead, they relied on teas made from local plants and roots. In the second, I came up with a coffee maker and coffee mugs that worked in zero. In the third, I have an off-world planet and there are trade restrictions imposed by Earth and coffee does not get imported.

In general, I feel off-Earth cuisine would be limited to plants and animals that are raised on planet. Spices and herbs are limited and tropical-style plants cannot be grown in temperate climates (no bananas, etc.).

Freefall 03330 September 11, 2019

CookFiction - Klah

CookFiction is a recipe library for foods that have been inspired by works of fiction. Our goal is to bring people of all walks of life together to the same table to eat good food, stretch their imaginations, and have fun.

cookfiction.com

These things are fun to think about. I think when America's colonies were rebelling, they tried all different sorts of stand-ins for tea.

One sequel to Dragon and the George described how Carolinus gave the world-hoppers some tea out of pity or something.

 

[Bramandin]

It didn't.

I doubt 20,000 Leagues would have been published today in its original form because it is so boring. Are you trying to write books for the 19th century?

Fair point on that, so I'm going back to the Wormhole Extreme moment.

I don't have to go into that much detail, but there needs to be some. The ration-bar mentioned in the beginning could easily be soylent shipped through an underground tunnel from an extinct volcano where they can do more traditional farming.

Actually that does bring up the question about how people clothe themselves if there isn't the raw material to make clothing. I'll probably handwave that and hope that it doesn't ruin immersion. Plenty of published stories are set in sci-fi worlds that fall apart the moment someone takes a good look at them and asks the right question.

 

[Mon0Zer0]

How does that further your plot?

Maybe it's just world colour? Be a bit boring if all books were just plot and no (little "C") character.

Going back to something the @Judge said in one of her posts, she writes something about logical impact of worldbuilding choices (particularly about Taverns). Food is a pretty basic requirement for living and society is structured around food production - so it stands to reason that the kinds of foods and the way it's grown will all give clues about the place in which the story is set - this impacts plot in lots of potential ways.

MMF takes place on a cyberpunk planet - something like Coruscant or Mega City One, but with a giant world spanning lawless district named The Strip - which is based on Hong Kong mixed with the seedier parts of Bangkok, the slums of Mumbai, Kowloon Walled City and the traveller squats in Hulme, Manchester in the 1990's.

There is no arable land, everything is grown in hydroponic greenhouses or in lab grown meat vats - but this comes at a high premium. Only the rich can afford real food. The poor subsist on sewerkill or RAW - a chemical sludge that is used in food processors to output approximations of real food - noodle dishes, soups, meat analogues - that kind of thing. Additionally, Cyborgs which have no digestive system can buy post-digested nutrient soup to fuel their brains.

The impact this has on plot is that cyborgs, for example have no fat reserves, so they have to keep an eye on their nutrient stores. Once they are depleted they can very quickly go into shut down. This tethers them to places or sources of food and power. The poor barely survive and suffer malnutrition. This forces them to take greater risks and dictates the kinds of options and choices available to them. Gangs control food distribution and production pipelines, including unions. Sections of the strip are subject to gang warfare and battles for control.

 

[Swank]

Maybe it's just world colour? Be a bit boring if all books were just plot and no (little "C") character.

Going back to something the @Judge said in one of her posts, she writes something about logical impact of worldbuilding choices (particularly about Taverns). Food is a pretty basic requirement for living and society is structured around food production - so it stands to reason that the kinds of foods and the way it's grown will all give clues about the place in which the story is set - this impacts plot in lots of potential ways.

MMF takes place on a cyberpunk planet - something like Coruscant or Mega City One, but with a giant world spanning lawless district named The Strip - which is based on Hong Kong mixed with the seedier parts of Bangkok, the slums of Mumbai, Kowloon Walled City and the traveller squats in Hulme, Manchester in the 1990's.

There is no arable land, everything is grown in hydroponic greenhouses or in lab grown meat vats - but this comes at a high premium. Only the rich can afford real food. The poor subsist on sewerkill or RAW - a chemical sludge that is used in food processors to output approximations of real food - noodle dishes, soups, meat analogues - that kind of thing. Additionally, Cyborgs which have no digestive system can buy post-digested nutrient soup to fuel their brains.

The impact this has on plot is that cyborgs, for example have no fat reserves, so they have to keep an eye on their nutrient stores. Once they are depleted they can very quickly go into shut down. This tethers them to places or sources of food and power. The poor barely survive and suffer malnutrition. This forces them to take greater risks and dictates the kinds of options and choices available to them. Gangs control food distribution and production pipelines, including unions. Sections of the strip are subject to gang warfare and battles for control.

Hey, I get the idea of background detail. Good authors sprinkle that stuff in to make the story feel more real. However, there is virtually no need to go into any sort of detail with any of it if the plot doesn't turn on those details. At that point you are either dumping exposition on your reader, or you have wasted a great deal of time and creative energy creating fictional back stories that no one will ever read.

Your particular example of the MMF problems from cyborgs doesn't sound very good because a cyborg that wasn't designed to store a little food energy just sounds preposterous. The worldbuilding equivalent of the horror movie victim that insists on going into the basement in her nighty.

 

[Swank]

Fair point on that, so I'm going back to the Wormhole Extreme moment.

I don't have to go into that much detail, but there needs to be some. The ration-bar mentioned in the beginning could easily be soylent shipped through an underground tunnel from an extinct volcano where they can do more traditional farming.

Actually that does bring up the question about how people clothe themselves if there isn't the raw material to make clothing. I'll probably handwave that and hope that it doesn't ruin immersion. Plenty of published stories are set in sci-fi worlds that fall apart the moment someone takes a good look at them and asks the right question.

I don't think that really answers my question. Fiction writing is not like designing RPGs. The only things that will make it into the final book is what makes the story interesting to read, and "interesting" is partially a pacing issue. 20,000 Leagues is boring because it is full of pace-destroying details that don't further the plot.

So when I ask what these details you've created do for the story, I'm asking if you're helping yourself or hurting yourself in your goal of crafting a good book.

 

[Mon0Zer0]

Your particular example of the MMF problems from cyborgs doesn't sound very good because a cyborg that wasn't designed to store a little food energy just sounds preposterous. The worldbuilding equivalent of the horror movie victim that insists on going into the basement in her nighty.

It's designed to store some, but not the equivalent of a human body. Human bodies are incredibly efficient at storing energy in fat / muscle / organs, and if put under stress it will eat itself. Not so when your body is stuffed full of tech.

The world rule represents what having a Cyborg body with only a cyber brain would really be like: a trade-off between having a human shaped body and having space to store food energy / batteries. Spot, the robot dog only has a battery life of 90 minutes to give this a real life equivalent. Even allowing for improvements to battery life or robot engineering, you're never going to get the kinds of periods between having to charge as a being of flesh and blood because of physical limitations of batteries etc.

The idea is meant to be a critique of the practicality or real life implications of cyborgs in cyberpunk fiction.

But thanks for your uninvited critique, lol.

 

[Bramandin]

Hey, I get the idea of background detail. Good authors sprinkle that stuff in to make the story feel more real. However, there is virtually no need to go into any sort of detail with any of it if the plot doesn't turn on those details. At that point you are either dumping exposition on your reader, or you have wasted a great deal of time and creative energy creating fictional back stories that no one will ever read.

Your particular example of the MMF problems from cyborgs doesn't sound very good because a cyborg that wasn't designed to store a little food energy just sounds preposterous. The worldbuilding equivalent of the horror movie victim that insists on going into the basement in her nighty.

I'm sorry, Swank, but you're pretty funny. Creativity is like a muscle and as long as someone doesn't go into full burn-out, it gets stronger the more you use it. Getting on a stair-climbing-simulation-machine is not a waste of energy because that person is going to be able to move longer than a mouse-potato.

I know drawing better than writing and you can't just put your pencil to paper and expect a masterpiece. One popular approach is that you should spend at least five minutes a day drawing boxes, squiggles, and other non-productive exercises. Even making a joke-drawing like a turtle with nunchucks strapped to his arms can be a valuable cobweb-cleaner.

I also cannot leave my mind idle. When I need to take a break from a project, (because charging ahead with something that I know is going to need to be frogged is not good for the creative muscles,) working out stupid stuff like what the culture's daily life is like is the equivalent of doodling.

It's also not like the chaff can't be recycled. This thing about the underground food is because I'm recycling a fanfiction location I named Letestadt. One thing that kept coming up when I didn't know what else to do was to figure out fussiness about food-culture. One culture ate fish as its only source of animal protein, which led to funny moments about them not liking the switch to eggs when the fish became unsafe. In the next generation, they're fine with eggs but won't do invertebrates. The generation after that would probably be squeamish about fish even after it's okay to eat again.

 

[Swank]

It's designed to store some, but not the equivalent of a human body. Human bodies are incredibly efficient at storing energy in fat / muscle / organs, and if put under stress it will eat itself. Not so when your body is stuffed full of tech.

The world rule represents what having a Cyborg body with only a cyber brain would really be like: a trade-off between having a human shaped body and having space to store food energy / batteries. Spot, the robot dog only has a battery life of 90 minutes to give this a real life equivalent. Even allowing for improvements to battery life or robot engineering, you're never going to get the kinds of periods between having to charge as a being of flesh and blood because of physical limitations of batteries etc.

The idea is meant to be a critique of the practicality or real life implications of cyborgs in cyberpunk fiction.

But thanks for your uninvited critique, lol.

I beg your pardon? Is "MMF" something associated with you?

My "critique" was simply that worldbuilding, character design and other off-page creative writing can create more problems than they solve. So, while you might see it as debatable whether a cyborg has enough reserves to live normally, the readers may find that problem a little unconvincing. And the author doesn't really get to debate the reader.

I think we fall in love with our little ideas, and are encouraged to do so by the way SFF writing is talked about. But the point is to write a compelling story that is served by the details, not write details and then bend a script around including them.

 

[Swank]

I'm sorry, Swank, but you're pretty funny. Creativity is like a muscle and as long as someone doesn't go into full burn-out, it gets stronger the more you use it. Getting on a stair-climbing-simulation-machine is not a waste of energy because that person is going to be able to move longer than a mouse-potato.

I know drawing better than writing and you can't just put your pencil to paper and expect a masterpiece. One popular approach is that you should spend at least five minutes a day drawing boxes, squiggles, and other non-productive exercises. Even making a joke-drawing like a turtle with nunchucks strapped to his arms can be a valuable cobweb-cleaner.

I also cannot leave my mind idle. When I need to take a break from a project, (because charging ahead with something that I know is going to need to be frogged is not good for the creative muscles,) working out stupid stuff like what the culture's daily life is like is the equivalent of doodling.

It's also not like the chaff can't be recycled. This thing about the underground food is because I'm recycling a fanfiction location I named Letestadt. One thing that kept coming up when I didn't know what else to do was to figure out fussiness about food-culture. One culture ate fish as its only source of animal protein, which led to funny moments about them not liking the switch to eggs when the fish became unsafe. In the next generation, they're fine with eggs but won't do invertebrates. The generation after that would probably be squeamish about fish even after it's okay to eat again.

Creativity is a good thing. I am also an artist and artisan. However, "kill your darlings" is a tip that exists to caution writers against giving birth to material that makes the story less strong.

So when I am drawing, I don't think about cooking. And when I write a story I try to concentrate on the story.

 

[Mon0Zer0]

I beg your pardon? Is "MMF" something associated with you?

Check the thread title.

My "critique" was simply that worldbuilding, character design and other off-page creative writing can create more problems than they solve. So, while you might see it as debatable whether a cyborg has enough reserves to live normally, the readers may find that problem a little unconvincing. And the author doesn't really get to debate the reader.

With respect, readers don't encounter the ideas separate from the world building. They accept the logic of the world if it is internally consistent. A writer can make almost any idea convincing if they can get the reader to suspend their disbelief.

There's nothing inherently unconvincing about the idea that a cyborg can survive for less time without food than a human for the reasons stated, which is what I'm suggesting. It's my job as writer to convince the reader by creating the conditions within the story - worldbuilding 101. From my perspective, since it's based on how things work in the real world, I have some backup. There's all kinds of reasons, in world and out why someone might choose to become a cyborg knowing they have limitations (and by limitations, I mean, can only go 2 days without food as opposed to two weeks).

You, personally, might find it uninteresting or feel constrained by it, but that could be because you're encountering it out of context or, possibly haven't thought about the potential of the idea.

Readers buy into stories, and, if they're well told, they'll suspend their disbelief. Things that are rooted in the real world require less work to suspend disbelief.

To see how far disbelief can go - look at the recent Everything, Everywhere, All at once - a universe with Hot Dog fingers? Travelling between multiple universes by riding on butt plugs? Black Hole Bagels? Even the most ridiculous idea can be made compelling and emotionally affecting if done right.

I think we fall in love with our little ideas, and are encouraged to do so by the way SFF writing is talked about. But the point is to write a compelling story that is served by the details, not write details and then bend a script around including them

With respect, I never said that it forms the entire basis for a story or that the idea came first or was the main focus of the story. It's a constraint on the character that tackles a bugbear of mine about how robots are depicted in fiction. It's existence in the story has ramifications for the internal world logic, and suggests possible plot points. The idea generates other ideas. You don't have to bend a story around it. I'm not talking about bending a story idea.

Having said that - one of the greatest and most lauded stories in comics history comes from an idea - What if Superheroes lived in the real world. Ideas can generate story, that's the point I'm making.

 

[Swank]

Having said that - one of the greatest and most lauded stories in comics history comes from an idea - What if Superheroes lived in the real world. Ideas can generate story, that's the point I'm making.

There is a world of difference between the idea that grows into a story and a detail that gets attached to a story.

 

[Bramandin]

Creativity is a good thing. I am also an artist and artisan. However, "kill your darlings" is a tip that exists to caution writers against giving birth to material that makes the story less strong.

So when I am drawing, I don't think about cooking. And when I write a story I try to concentrate on the story.

I don't kill my darlings. I put them aside in a hard-drive until magnetic randomization takes them. I do know how to say "you can't play with the other ideas until you learn how to not be weird." Okay, this metaphor just went into "drop it before it invites a 'mercy killing' comment."

I guess the rest of it is a difference in thought-process. When I drive, most of the mental process is something I personify third-person-style; my actual self will just go on standby until there is a problem that requires braking unless I'm doing something else with those CPU cycles. I also don't concentrate on cooking, but rather my ideas are in the crock-pot while I'm digging frozen peas out of the freezer and scooping rice. (I used to do things that involved chopping fresh vegetables, it's just not worth it.) I think I'd love sweeping the living-room if it wasn't such an involved process that required thought. I just don't do focus.

 

[Stomalomalus]

Maybe it's just world colour? Be a bit boring if all books were just plot and no (little "C") character.

Going back to something the @Judge said in one of her posts, she writes something about logical impact of worldbuilding choices (particularly about Taverns). Food is a pretty basic requirement for living and society is structured around food production - so it stands to reason that the kinds of foods and the way it's grown will all give clues about the place in which the story is set - this impacts plot in lots of potential ways.

MMF takes place on a cyberpunk planet - something like Coruscant or Mega City One, but with a giant world spanning lawless district named The Strip - which is based on Hong Kong mixed with the seedier parts of Bangkok, the slums of Mumbai, Kowloon Walled City and the traveller squats in Hulme, Manchester in the 1990's.

There is no arable land, everything is grown in hydroponic greenhouses or in lab grown meat vats - but this comes at a high premium. Only the rich can afford real food. The poor subsist on sewerkill or RAW - a chemical sludge that is used in food processors to output approximations of real food - noodle dishes, soups, meat analogues - that kind of thing. Additionally, Cyborgs which have no digestive system can buy post-digested nutrient soup to fuel their brains.

The impact this has on plot is that cyborgs, for example have no fat reserves, so they have to keep an eye on their nutrient stores. Once they are depleted they can very quickly go into shut down. This tethers them to places or sources of food and power. The poor barely survive and suffer malnutrition. This forces them to take greater risks and dictates the kinds of options and choices available to them. Gangs control food distribution and production pipelines, including unions. Sections of the strip are subject to gang warfare and battles for control.

Thank you for this reminder. I realise now I've forgotten to get down in the backstory the food situation of the different classes in my latest. It's not a detail I plan to explore in great detail, but considering a large chunk of act 1 centres around a farm and the building up of said farm, it's an element of backstory I need to have available to me.

It's not necessary to talk about it, per se, in the story, but knowing about it allows the creation of more realistic characters and scenarios.

 

[Bramandin]

Thank you for this reminder. I realise now I've forgotten to get down in the backstory the food situation of the different classes in my latest. It's not a detail I plan to explore in great detail, but considering a large chunk of act 1 centres around a farm and the building up of said farm, it's an element of backstory I need to have available to me.

It's not necessary to talk about it, per se, in the story, but knowing about it allows the creation of more realistic characters and scenarios.

I feel you're getting to the heart of where our fun is. I'm on a subreddit that is dedicated to arguing a lot about sci-fi and comic-book stuff. The rules are somewhat like "Take a Watsonian perspective, not a Doylist one" which means that you have to argue from within the universe, but you're in a room with a bunch of other people who know that Batman is Bruce Wayne and other stuff that only the narrator and reader should know. Just somehow you know how the world works and don't question it.

My point is that you can cut down on that flotsam by knowing the answers and even giving in-universe hints to those geeks.

For the "cyborgs have no fat reserves," sometime during the day, my mind went to cars without fuel gauges. I'm too young to have interacted with one, but I guess the car sputtered, you pulled a knob, and you had a rough idea that you had 30 miles before you were in trouble so you better find a station or someone with a landline/voicething in the house.