An amazing bag of string

[Dave]

Just as regards quoting "Tonnage", I think it would be customary to use the Net and Gross Tonnage as given in Lloyd's Register of Shipping (published every year and updated after modifications - it actually reads like a "car's log book" for ships.) This would then be the Net and Gross Tonnage that the ship was insured for, against loss.

However, the problem here would be that most of the ships are Naval, and foreign, and that the specifications may be unknown (though probably no longer today); or else the ships were merchant vessels not registered with Lloyds. Therefore, I guess the question of the accuracy of the figures given in that website is a valid one. As a "History" website, the referencing on that page is very poor (there are endnotes, but very few of the facts and figures are referenced) but that is just part of a much more widespread problem with referencing on the internet as a whole.

So, I think they can only ever be taken as estimates. On the other hand, the tonnage is so large that it doesn't change the validity of the Swordfish's claim to the title at all.

 

[Venusian Broon]

However, the problem here would be that most of the ships are Naval, and foreign, and that the specifications may be unknown (though probably no longer today); or else the ships were merchant vessels not registered with Lloyds. Therefore, I guess the question of the accuracy of the figures given in that website is a valid one. As a "History" website, the referencing on that page is very poor (there are endnotes, but very few of the facts and figures are referenced) but that is just part of a much more widespread problem with referencing on the internet as a whole.

Would not most of the ships attacked by German U-boats be British or British Empire ships - and then US? Or ships hired by the British/US to carry cargoes to the UK and other places required by the UK and the US? Hence therefore known or estimated by both governments at the time?

So would not someone in the British Government, say, have tracked volumes of supplies going across Atlantic/Pacific/Indian ocean. Also a convoy system was put in place pretty much from the get go etc...?

I do realise there would still have been freelancers and neutral ships quite late on, especially in certain areas that might have been deemed secondary - like the Caribbean and South America - so perhaps the figures are not totally correct, but...

on Wikipedia they take information (extremely detailed) with tonnage figures for, I think, all merchant ships in convoys in WW2 from here: Arnold Hague Convoy Database!

 

[Matteo]

Fond memories of the Swordfish - and a long-running joke in my family...

Many years ago (must be about forty - I was in Junior School) I went on a school trip to the Fleet Air Arm Museum. I was fascinated by the Swordfish and spent my pocket money on a mug depicting the plane. The very next morning my father reached into the kitchen cupboard to get another mug, pulled that out, and in doing so my as-yet-unused mug fell to the floor and broke into pieces...

It has to be said that several other mugs met the same fate over the years - including three in one go once (he must have something against them). But none of those were as devastating as the Swordfish Mug Incident as it was thereafter known. I still remind him of it from time to time.

 

[Dave]

Would not most of the ships attacked by German U-boats be British or British Empire ships - and then US... on Wikipedia they take information (extremely detailed) with tonnage figures for, I think, all merchant ships in convoys in WW2 from here: Arnold Hague Convoy Database!

I will bow to your superior knowledge on this. That website still doesn't reference where his figures come from though, and I just have a thing about that, given the amount of fake news about, especially on small websites not maintained by academic institutions or reputable news gathering organisations, like that one, although he does at least give us his name.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I will bow to your superior knowledge on this. That website still doesn't reference where his figures come from though, and I just have a thing about that, given the amount of fake news about, especially on small websites not maintained by academic institutions or reputable news gathering organisations, like that one, although he does at least give us his name.

Just perusing through the site states, for one particular part of the website:

The data contained in this section is based on Lloyd's of London records currently held in the Guildhall. Note that these records are not in the same format as the Merchant Shipping Movement Cards held in The National Archives. They require diligent interpretation which has been done by Tony Cooper over the years. His records have now been collected in this database to allow access over the Web.

I'd guess that's where a lot of the info comes from, plus other sources.

Perhaps you're being a bit too cynical with 'fake news' but I'd be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt given the sheer scale of it. Not that I'd ever use it, there is that.

I guess the problem here is that the actual records in the Guildhall, National Archives (see Discovery | The National Archives) and the other sources that they have (allegedly, if I am reading your mood ) is that I guess they are all hand-written and will require a great deal of work to translate to the internet. Even trying to find something to get started on the national archives website is tough enough...and what do you know, if you find something interesting you get:

This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.
This record is stored off site and will take three working days to be delivered to The National Archives.

One could presumably try and get access to some records yourself and check them with what is published there

 

[Dave]

I hadn't read that. In which case I'm happy to take his word for it.

I'm only "cynical" because there is an incredible amount of information passed online as 'truth' which has no real basis, or evidence to back it up. In this particular case, I expect those figures are as accurate as possible.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I hadn't read that. In which case I'm happy to take his word for it.

I'm only "cynical" because there is an incredible amount of information passed on as 'truth' which has no real basis, or evidence to back it up. In this particular case, I expect those figures are as accurate as possible.

I know what you mean.

To be frank, I have little evidence, other than a few sentences and other bits and pieces telling me this that this (massive) database has been faithfully put together from the original sources...but I have stumbled across many amazing data troves set up on the internet doing various things. (It's incredible what's out there if you put the effort in to dig it out.)

So my spidey sense is on the side of giving this one more trust than doubt

 

[BigBadBob141]

I saw a flim on you-tube a while back.
A modern American navel jet fighter had a mid air collision.
The pilot somehow managed to keep control of the plane.
With a great amount of difficulty he managed to land it.
It was only then that found out he only had one wing!

 

[WarriorMouse]

It was an F-15 of the Israel Air Force. The collision took off 95% of the wing outboard of the right side engine.

 

[WarriorMouse]

Seem to still be having update teething issues.

 

[Foxbat]

I saw a flim on you-tube a while back.
A modern American navel jet fighter had a mid air collision.
The pilot somehow managed to keep control of the plane.
With a great amount of difficulty he managed to land it.
It was only then that found out he only had one wing!

There was a pretty spectacular collision at (I think) Farnborough. It was one of the first times the MiG 29 had been at the display and a pair of them were doing aerobatics until the horror moment when they crashed in mid-air (all live on TV). The commentator spoke of his relief when both pilots ejected and appeared to be coming to earth in one piece. The camera zoomed in on one pilot who, once down, calmly reached into his pocket, drew out a cigarette and lit it. Then, the camera swung over to the second pilot who was marching across a field towards his wingman. When he got there, he decked his comrade. I couldn't help but laugh...

 

[mosaix]

Wow! I'm stunned that one Swordfish survived 175 hits. Just incredible!
Also, ironic that what appeared to be weaknesses (fabric construction, slow air speed) were actually strengths.The video actually gives a better understanding of why such an (apparently) obsolete plane became so successful in sinking enemy shipping.

There was science fiction story in Analog in (I think) the 80s along the lines of a modern fighter pilot and his 'plane accidententy time-travelled back to the First World War. Everyone thought the 'plane would make mince meat of the enemy aircraft but it was useless. First, it traveled too fast for the pilot to zero in on the slower planes and second, his missiles were unable to lock onto wood and canvas targets.

 

[WarriorMouse]

Modern fighters have a landing speed that is faster than WW1 fighters had as a flying speed.
eg. F/A-18 Super Hornet landing approach speed is 135 knots or 250kp/h
Sopwith Camel max flight speed - 100 knots or 185 kp/h

 

[BigBadBob141]

I have the copy of Analog this story was in.
Bit of a silly idea that everyone seem to except that it was the latest model.
But a think he could bring down other planes simply flying past them closely at high speed.
I think the shock waves from his flight would cause the older planes to lose control.