Terry Goodkind's Sword of truth series

Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
19
Location
Dublin, Ireland
ratsy,

Faith of the Fallen was my favorite book in the series so I guess everyone has different reactions to the same thing. I love how Richard won't let anything come between him and Kahlan and I just can't get enough of the Mord-Sith.

I think The Omen Machine was the only book that I really didn't enjoy in the series.
I liked FOTF too, there was plenty of action in it, and of course Kahlan goes all kick-ass, which I like. I love strong female characters! I've noticed a number of people saying that Richard/Kahlan order the killing of innocent people, and I really don't know where they get that. Kahlan kills the camp followers because they are profiting from the war and helping the soldiers, not nice perhaps but they are with the army. Her moral judgement could be questioned, but nevertheless they have joined with the army and are at the front with it. She never hurts any civilians because there aren't any there, and when Richard sends the Phantom Legions into the Old World he orders them NOT to harm innocent people, he says only harm those who resist. So where this killing innocent civilians comes from I really don't know. Protesters yes, he does that in Naked Empire, again a moral question could be asked as to why he can't just kick them out of the way, but he does warn them first. I can't get enough Mord-Sith also! Great characters. I like the way they change from evil to good because someone has shown them kindness and respect, something they've never known, and understands them, understands why they do what they do. I always felt sorry for them, they were nice girls who'd been treated dreadfully, tortured beyond belief, but still managed to retain enough spark of what they had been to show gratitude and eventually love for one who has shown it to them. I thought Denna's giving of herself to the Keeper to save Richard was such a wonderful act of pure love, and then other Mord-Sith show they do have feelings, Berdine and Raina's love for example, and Cara's for Richard. I think the greatest victims of the Mord-Sith were the Mord-Sith themselves: when you think of it, as Denna tells Richard, what he suffered was only what she had received in training, and he only had to endure it for a few weeks, a grown man - Mord-Sith got it for years and they were children at the start. Anyway, enough. This is becoming a novella! Like you Heather I liked FOTF and I love Mord-Sith.
 

SilentRoamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
1,382
The arguments against Richard and Kahlan being moral beings:

Naked Empire Richard Rahl kills a load of protestors, they're not just protestors though. If you remember they are all pacifists and Richard Rahl kills them for being pacifists, of course in Sword of Truth land all pacifists are evil.

Richard Rahl also kicks the jaw in of a small child because again, she is evil.

Kahlan makes some guy eat his own testicles. at some point - not a very moral thing to do.
 
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
19
Location
Dublin, Ireland
The arguments against Richard and Kahlan being moral beings:

Naked Empire Richard Rahl kills a load of protestors, they're not just protestors though. If you remember they are all pacifists and Richard Rahl kills them for being pacifists, of course in Sword of Truth land all pacifists are evil.

Richard Rahl also kicks the jaw in of a small child because again, she is evil.

Kahlan makes some guy eat his own testicles. at some point - not a very moral thing to do.
As to Richard kicking the kid I'd say she rather deserved it, after all she tortured him herself and greatly enjoyed it. And at what age does it become all right to hurt people? Would it be OK to kick her if she was 20? As you say, he kicked he because she was evil. Seems like a good reason. Same goes for the guy eating his own testicles. He wasn't just someone she didn't like, he was an evil pedo who raped kids and helped Daken Rahl to kill them. I'd call that moral justice, and I'd gladly do the same thing myself. Sorry, but my sympathy is with those who deserve it. He didn't. As to the protestors, yes Richard doesn't like them for that, but had they simply got out of the way they wouldn't have been hurt. That doesn't totally justify of course his killing some of them, but he did give them chances to move. It's true that Richard often bends the rules somewhat between right and wrong, and that can indeed be questioned, just like one can question if the A-bomb couldn't just as well been dropped on a military base or out in the countryside, not on two cities full of innocent people. Yes, Richard can go too far sometimes. I suppose with the protestors he could have simply wacked them with the flat of the blade. That's a good point of debate. When does extreme force become a requirement rather than a option.
 

SilentRoamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
1,382
Here's the Princess Violet message:

Princess Violet glared at him. "My mother says that Confessor Kahlan will come back and that we'll have a surprise for her the next time she comes here. I just want you to know because my mother said you'll be dead by then. My mother says I get to decide what to do to her. First, I'm going to cut off her hair. " Her hands were in fists, her face red. "Then i'm going to let all the guards rape her, every one! Then I'm going to put her in the dungeon for a few years so they'll have someone to play with! Then when I get tired of hurting her, I'll have her head chopped off and put it on a pole where I can watch it rot!"
Richard actually felt sorry for the little Princess. The sadness for her came over him in a wave. At that feeling, he was surprised to feel the thing in him that had come awake rise up.
Princess Violet squeezed her eyes shut, stuck her tongue out far as she could.
It was like a red flag.
The strength of the awakened power exploded through him.
He could feel her jaw shattter like a crystal goblet on a stone floor when his boot came up under it. The impact of the blow lifted the Princess into the air. Her own teeth severed her tongue before they, too, shattered. She landed on her back, a good distance away, trying to scream through the gushing blood.


We might have to disagree in that I don't think 8 year old children can be evil. This child needs some love and help following torture from her mother and Mord Sith - she does not need a boot in the face.

Kahlan has no compunction to enslave any man to her will using her confessor power which is basically an enslaving magic.

Richard has also killed other people for very little reasoning but of course he always ends up being right in the end.

As to the protestors, yes Richard doesn't like them for that, but had they simply got out of the way they wouldn't have been hurt. That doesn't totally justify of course his killing some of them, but he did give them chances to move.

So he gave PACIFISTS a chance to move and when they personally refused he slaughtered them. There's no total justification or even partial here - Richard Rahl murders pacifists. This has more to do with Goodkinds real world politics than anything else.

I enjoyed Wizards First Rule and thought every book after was worse than the one before. The objectivist undertones become hug currents you have to swim through to get to the Fantasy. Also Goodkind has said some awful things about his critics and has a highly inflated opinion of himself.

I can cite more evidence as to why both Richard and Kahlan are two of the most morally reprehensible heroes cast in the most moral high ground. Richard Rahl is just "oh so awesome at everything it hurts!"
 
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
19
Location
Dublin, Ireland
Here's the Princess Violet message:

Princess Violet glared at him. "My mother says that Confessor Kahlan will come back and that we'll have a surprise for her the next time she comes here. I just want you to know because my mother said you'll be dead by then. My mother says I get to decide what to do to her. First, I'm going to cut off her hair. " Her hands were in fists, her face red. "Then i'm going to let all the guards rape her, every one! Then I'm going to put her in the dungeon for a few years so they'll have someone to play with! Then when I get tired of hurting her, I'll have her head chopped off and put it on a pole where I can watch it rot!"
Richard actually felt sorry for the little Princess. The sadness for her came over him in a wave. At that feeling, he was surprised to feel the thing in him that had come awake rise up.
Princess Violet squeezed her eyes shut, stuck her tongue out far as she could.
It was like a red flag.
The strength of the awakened power exploded through him.
He could feel her jaw shattter like a crystal goblet on a stone floor when his boot came up under it. The impact of the blow lifted the Princess into the air. Her own teeth severed her tongue before they, too, shattered. She landed on her back, a good distance away, trying to scream through the gushing blood.


We might have to disagree in that I don't think 8 year old children can be evil. This child needs some love and help following torture from her mother and Mord Sith - she does not need a boot in the face.

Kahlan has no compunction to enslave any man to her will using her confessor power which is basically an enslaving magic.

Richard has also killed other people for very little reasoning but of course he always ends up being right in the end.



So he gave PACIFISTS a chance to move and when they personally refused he slaughtered them. There's no total justification or even partial here - Richard Rahl murders pacifists. This has more to do with Goodkinds real world politics than anything else.

I enjoyed Wizards First Rule and thought every book after was worse than the one before. The objectivist undertones become hug currents you have to swim through to get to the Fantasy. Also Goodkind has said some awful things about his critics and has a highly inflated opinion of himself.

I can cite more evidence as to why both Richard and Kahlan are two of the most morally reprehensible heroes cast in the most moral high ground. Richard Rahl is just "oh so awesome at everything it hurts!"
Interesting points. But of course there will never be agreement between the pro and the con elements, one side thinking that everything Terry writes is almost the word of god while the other see him as representing all that is evil. There seems little middle ground. I do wonder sometimes why so many people, on both sides, get so worked up over it, throwing abuse at one another, when it really doesn't matter to either side what those on the other do. What I've always found really strange is the way some people don't like his books because they don't like HIM. To me it is irrelevant what an author is like, it's the books they write that are what concerns the reader. If Terry got his jolly's kicking fluffy little kittens I'd say that had no bearing on what he wrote. I'm sure many authors are less than desirable people. Questions have been asked about Lewis Carroll's interest in Alice, and Mark Twain was allegedly very friendly it seems with little boys, but nobody would hold that against their writing. I've never met Terry of course, though I did get a really nice e-Mail from him, exceptionally nice actually, telling me how he came up with the character of Kahlan, and I've seen some extremely long and very nice letters he's written to fans. My own experience with him couldn't have been better, which is all I can go on. Let us not go to war over it! I'd always enjoy seeing your point of view. I go along with Voltaire, who said 'I don't agree with your opinion but I will fight to the death for your right to express it' (or words to that effect).
 

Jeremy M. Gottwig

Jeremy M. Gottwig
Joined
Sep 17, 2015
Messages
128
Location
Big, bad Baltimore City
I listened to the first four SOT audiobooks back in college... mostly as a way to keep my mind occupied during my occasional 4 hour weekend drive back home.

I really didn't like the first book. The plot seemed silly to me, and the villains had no nuance. That said, I must have liked the ending enough to continue. I think the books improved a bit after that, but I eventually lost interest. Of those I listened to, I enjoyed Stone of Tears the most.
 

SilentRoamer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
1,382
Well, love him or loathe him, Terry Goodkind is still one of the biggest selling fantasy writers. :)

I'll give you a similar response as last time - popularity is no indication of quality!

Interesting points. But of course there will never be agreement between the pro and the con elements, one side thinking that everything Terry writes is almost the word of god while the other see him as representing all that is evil.

I don't think TG polarises people in quite that way to be honest.

There seems little middle ground. I do wonder sometimes why so many people, on both sides, get so worked up over it, throwing abuse at one another, when it really doesn't matter to either side what those on the other do.

I would never throw abuse at someone on an online forum for disagreement about a Fantasy series, seems rather... extreme.

What I've always found really strange is the way some people don't like his books because they don't like HIM. To me it is irrelevant what an author is like, it's the books they write that are what concerns the reader. If Terry got his jolly's kicking fluffy little kittens I'd say that had no bearing on what he wrote. I'm sure many authors are less than desirable people. Questions have been asked about Lewis Carroll's interest in Alice, and Mark Twain was allegedly very friendly it seems with little boys, but nobody would hold that against their writing.

You misunderstood my post - I have no care for TG's real world politics but they influence his story to the point that later stories, Naked Empire being an example are hijacked by the authors personal beliefs and agenda resulting in a mess. So in this instance separating the work from the man is impossible because of the thinly veiled allusions throughout the books. I'll give you a counter example: Orson Scott Card holds some (what I consider to be) awful views on homosexuality and marriage but Enders Game is one of my favourite books - his politics and his work are clearly distinct. If Card anti-gay politics were a heavy influence on his work I doubt I would enjoy it.

I've never met Terry of course, though I did get a really nice e-Mail from him, exceptionally nice actually, telling me how he came up with the character of Kahlan, and I've seen some extremely long and very nice letters he's written to fans. My own experience with him couldn't have been better, which is all I can go on. Let us not go to war over it! I'd always enjoy seeing your point of view. I go along with Voltaire, who said 'I don't agree with your opinion but I will fight to the death for your right to express it' (or words to that effect).

I appreciate your experience with TG, he may be a very nice man. Unfortunately I have seen a number of interviews where he makes ridiculous statements and seems to have a hugely over inflated ego. Again I would not be too worried I will go to "war" with you - we are disagreeing about a fantasy series, not something that holds any real import in either of our lives (I would hope).

Like I said I enjoyed the start of the series but it got progressively worse which was unfortunate.

And I'm sure he doesn't care, all the way to the bank!

I think you are probably right about this - at least from the 3rd/4th book into the series, the whole thing just became a cash cow. Ricahrd Rahl finds the new World, then the Old World, then the Old Old World, then ends up in our world.... the series has stumbled for a long time and has been cash milking for a while, a detrimental effect is that his editing has been almost non existent which has led to some real nuggets of writing!

Anyway I won't go into it further as I don't do author bashing and don't want to seem inflammatory. Although if you ever want any other recommendations for epic fantasy you are in the right place. :)
 
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
19
Location
Dublin, Ireland
I'll give you a similar response as last time - popularity is no indication of quality!



I don't think TG polarises people in quite that way to be honest.



I would never throw abuse at someone on an online forum for disagreement about a Fantasy series, seems rather... extreme.



You misunderstood my post - I have no care for TG's real world politics but they influence his story to the point that later stories, Naked Empire being an example are hijacked by the authors personal beliefs and agenda resulting in a mess. So in this instance separating the work from the man is impossible because of the thinly veiled allusions throughout the books. I'll give you a counter example: Orson Scott Card holds some (what I consider to be) awful views on homosexuality and marriage but Enders Game is one of my favourite books - his politics and his work are clearly distinct. If Card anti-gay politics were a heavy influence on his work I doubt I would enjoy it.



I appreciate your experience with TG, he may be a very nice man. Unfortunately I have seen a number of interviews where he makes ridiculous statements and seems to have a hugely over inflated ego. Again I would not be too worried I will go to "war" with you - we are disagreeing about a fantasy series, not something that holds any real import in either of our lives (I would hope).

Like I said I enjoyed the start of the series but it got progressively worse which was unfortunate.



I think you are probably right about this - at least from the 3rd/4th book into the series, the whole thing just became a cash cow. Ricahrd Rahl finds the new World, then the Old World, then the Old Old World, then ends up in our world.... the series has stumbled for a long time and has been cash milking for a while, a detrimental effect is that his editing has been almost non existent which has led to some real nuggets of writing!

Anyway I won't go into it further as I don't do author bashing and don't want to seem inflammatory. Although if you ever want any other recommendations for epic fantasy you are in the right place. :)
What, no war? Oh shoot, just when I had the boiling oil all heated up and the Mord-Sith ready to hang somebody up on a chain! Thanks for the recommendations offer, I'll keep it in mind.
 

Brian G Turner

Fantasist & Futurist
Staff member
Supporter
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
25,739
Location
UK
What, no war? Oh shoot, just when I had the boiling oil all heated up and the Mord-Sith ready to hang somebody up on a chain! Thanks for the recommendations offer, I'll keep it in mind.

Good to have you here, anyway, Denton - there are a lot of books people discuss here that I don't think too highly of, but that's simply my personal opinion. Despite everything I'd heard about Goodkind I did actually like Wizard's First Rule. :)
 

Similar threads


Top