Who in Seven Hells is Septa Lemore?

Dunneroo

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After doing a re-read of the books, the one thing really bothering me is who is Septa Lemore?

Tyrion's POV gives us some clues such as him thinking she has dark brown hair. She also appears to have stretch marks on her belly that could only come from childbirth.

My first thought is Ashara Dayne. The Darkstar is said to have the dark features, and from what we know Ashara committed suicide by jumping out of a tower into the sea, which would make the body hard to identify, if found at all.

I do find it interesting in Ned Stark's conversation with Cersei in book 1, on how she implies Ned stole Ashara's child.

"How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?" - Cersei

One other connection, Septa Lemore seems to enjoy swimming....and Ashara dies by jumping into a sea? Hrmmm...

So the dark features and the fact she had a child matched up, but the real question is, why would she go into hiding/exile after Robert's Rebellion?

Robert was known to pardon Lords that rivaled him, so what did Ashara have to be worried about? The only thing that I can think of is, she had the child from either the Mad King or Rhaegar.

This could also mean that Jon Snow's mother was Ashara Dayne. I know the majority of fans consider R+L=J to be true, but I feel like GRRM is either hinting at something here or using this as mis-direction.

After further research I've found this from Catelyn:

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Ned confirms Jon is of Stark blood, but that doesn't make sense because we ALL know Ned is not the father right?

Well how about this from Bran's POV:

...The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

...The quiet wolf offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night....

So we know the crannogman is HW, the wild wolf is Brandon Stark and the quiet wolf is Ned. What if Brandon the Wild Stark hooked up with Ashara? B+A=J anyone? Think about it, if the brother of your baby daddy came and stole your kid, wouldn't you be pissed off and support Aegon who has a better claim to the throne than Robert? This exile could be vengeance against Ned through Aegon vs Robert.

Anyways I am snowballing out of control and would like to hear other thoughts on who is Septa Lemore and her connections.
 
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Judderman

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Back onto Ned. Why so sure that John is not Ned's son?
The comment you highlight about Lady Ashara's suicide suggests to me that Lady Ashara could have been the mother (after an affair with Ned) but Ned would not allow her to keep him.
 
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I'm pretty sure John is not Ned's son. From everything we know about his character, it doesn't seem to fit. There seems to be so much evidence for R+L=J throughout the series.

A better question might be why do we assume Lemore is anyone of significance at all?
 

Boaz

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Judd, check out...

"promise me, Ned" and "the value of Howland Reed"

Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Jon Snow's true parentage...

SPOILERS: Theory on Jon

Done to death... again.

i get the R+L=J theory, but...

Jon Snow & his parents

Jon Snow ideas

Jon's true name

Rhaegar Revisited. A Rambling...

That's about a hundred pages of discussion.

Dunn, in Who is Septa Lemore? (Spoilers) Heartsbane makes his case for Ashara while Young Stormlord thinks she is the mother of Tyene Sand, the third Sand Snake. Near the end, Raul claims Lemore is actually Aegon's (Young Griff) mother.

I personally don't have an opinion.
 

Boaz

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You're welcome.

About eight years ago, Aegon the Unworthy nominated me as the research monkey in this forum. I'm not quick at research and I don't enjoy it, so I was happy when TK-421 took over the job. I'm glad that Brian makes the forum searchable by Name as well as Replies to easily find exact topics and hot topics.
 

Judderman

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Thanks Boaz, I will peruse through the links of smoke screens and mirrors to get to the seed of this gossip.
 

Dunneroo

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Came across this from BFS chapter in ADWD.

"Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan
Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen,
who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was
good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe
might have been avoided. His choice would have been a
young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions
… though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish
princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall
Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to
close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling
about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes.
Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen
looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s
daughter…

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady
had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief
for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had
dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.
She died never
knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she?
He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No
good could have come from telling her his feelings. No
good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar
and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she
have looked to me instead of Stark
?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted
Barristan Selmy so much as that."

We know she had a baby from a Stark, but which one? What's interesting is from BFS' POV, it was a stillborn daughter. From Cersei's POV, she think its a living child stolen from Ashara.

The part highlighted about grief, "...and perhaps for the man who had
dishonored her at Harrenhal."

Wouldn't the cause of "grief" point towards a dead man, Brandon Stark? Could BFS be giving us the answer?
 

Tywin

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Wouldn't the cause of "grief" point towards a dead man, Brandon Stark? Could BFS be giving us the answer?
With all the quotes that have been thrown out in this thread so far, I think it's interesting that we all seem to enter the discussion under the impression that Ned couldn't possibly have had an affair with Ashara, and that she must have had her fling with Brandon instead.

Although I agree that we've been presented characterizations of the two brothers that fit that, I think maybe we should consider the following possibilities:

1) That Ned could have had an affair with her (else why would his Soldiers who were with him say that?)

2) Jon could be Ashara and Ned's son.

3) Ashara could have had a different child with Ned even if R+L=J is completely accurate.


Okay, so there's all my encouragement to leave our minds open. Now that that's over I'd like to throw out there the crackpot theory that Young Grif is the son of Ashara Dayne and one of the Stark Brothers.
 

Dunneroo

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Might as well go full crackpot:

1) Jon is the son of Ashara and Ned/Brandon and GRRM fools everyone.

2) Aegon = R+L, fulfilling TPTWP who's song is of ice and fire.

3) Danaerys = AA

Three heads of the dragon = Danaerys, Aegon, and Jaime.

Well I at least hope it happens that way!
 

ArstenWhitebeard

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OR!!!

Ashara's daughter is Dany! The queen died in labour, supposedly giving birth to Dany, but what if they BOTH died and Varys switched Ashara's daughter with the dead baby. Ashara, had been Raped by the Mad King at Harrenhal and in her grief she turned to Brandon Stark who, in trying to protect her, got himself and his father killed. Ashara was going to be having a bastard baby so she thought the baby would be better off. then, in an effort to protect a secret that nobody else knows, she went into hiding as Septa Lemore.

Dany is Ashara's Baby by rape by the Mad King
Jon is Rheagar and Lyanna's baby

"those haunting purple eyes.Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter…"


All of that is unlikely, but I do wonder how GRRM is going to uncover the truth about some of these questions. I almost just want to read a chapter in which Septa Lemore, Howland Reed, Varys, Littlefinger, Illyrio and Jaqen Hagar all sit down at a table and lay out all the cards, bare all the secrets about swapped babies, raped noblewomen and everything else once and for all. Preferably this would happen as a Prologue chapter seen through the eyes of littlefinger. (we all know what happens to Prologues)
 

Anushka Mokosh

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OR!!!

Ashara's daughter is Dany! The queen died in labour, supposedly giving birth to Dany, but what if they BOTH died and Varys switched Ashara's daughter with the dead baby. Ashara, had been Raped by the Mad King at Harrenhal and in her grief she turned to Brandon Stark who, in trying to protect her, got himself and his father killed. Ashara was going to be having a bastard baby so she thought the baby would be better off. then, in an effort to protect a secret that nobody else knows, she went into hiding as Septa Lemore.

Dany is Ashara's Baby by rape by the Mad King
Jon is Rheagar and Lyanna's baby

"those haunting purple eyes.Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter…"


All of that is unlikely, but I do wonder how GRRM is going to uncover the truth about some of these questions. I almost just want to read a chapter in which Septa Lemore, Howland Reed, Varys, Littlefinger, Illyrio and Jaqen Hagar all sit down at a table and lay out all the cards, bare all the secrets about swapped babies, raped noblewomen and everything else once and for all. Preferably this would happen as a Prologue chapter seen through the eyes of littlefinger. (we all know what happens to Prologues)
LOL I want to see that scene, but not as a prologue. I like Varys and Jaqen too much for that.

I'm hoping book 6 will reveal some of those answers. At least Jon's parentage. Little chance of that, but one can hope. xD
 

Boaz

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Will the Targaryen dynasty be restarted by a bastard?

Aegon claims to be Rhaegar's true born son, but we are not convinced. Dany claims to be Aerys's daughter and Arsten, in his last post, seems to be the only person to ever doubt this. Many people suspect Jon to be of royal blood, but whether he is a legitimate heir is the question.

It is readily apparent that ASOIAF is inspired by The War of the Roses. Inspired, not copied. It's not like Dragnet... "The story you are to see is true, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent." That being said, can we see the end of ASOIAF in history? Henry VII united the country by being the last Lancastrian claimant and marrying the daughter of Edward V. I use the term claimant, but Henry's claim as the heir of Henry VI was extremely dodgy at best and the Lancastrian claim was inferior to that of the House of York in the first place.

So... I don't suppose that Aegon's claim or Jon's claim needs to be iron clad. Only Dany's claim seems unquestioned... heck, even Robert recognized her claim.

And what about Tommen and Myrcella? Just think, if Aerys is Cersei's father, then in some people's eyes their claims may be better through Cersei than Robert!

Dynastic struggles. Civil war. Family feuds. It will most likely take a marriage to unite the country.

Cersei was right in one thing, " When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. there is no middle ground." And Cersei's children are pieces in the game... and they can die before they ever become players. I cannot see any way Tommen survives unless the Lannisters triumph. Myrcella on the other hand could be a crucial piece to uniting the realm, but if she's not, then she's a liability.

And as for Aegon, he cannot be Eddard's and Ashara's son. He has silver hair.

As for Lemore, I dunno.
 

Tywin

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And as for Aegon, he cannot be Eddard's and Ashara's son. He has silver hair.

As for Lemore, I dunno.
Or silver hair is a recessive trait. Like blonde hair: you can have two folks with dark hair produce offspring with blonde hair if they are each carrying that recessive trait around in their DNA. Most of Ned's kids have light/reddish hair, so as per my 7th grade biology class he must be carrying a recessive gene.

Young grif: son of Ned/Brandon and Ashara, and oldest male heir to the seat of Winterfell and the Kindom in the North.
 

ArstenWhitebeard

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LOL I want to see that scene, but not as a prologue. I like Varys and Jaqen too much for that.

I'm hoping book 6 will reveal some of those answers. At least Jon's parentage. Little chance of that, but one can hope. xD

I should have specified that I only wanted Littlefinger to die, maybe just after leaving the meeting.
 

ArstenWhitebeard

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It is readily apparent that ASOIAF is inspired by The War of the Roses. Inspired, not copied. It's not like Dragnet... "The story you are to see is true, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent."
LOL - the dragon's real names are Huey, Duey and Luey.

Or silver hair is a recessive trait. Like blonde hair: you can have two folks with dark hair produce offspring with blonde hair if they are each carrying that recessive trait around in their DNA. Most of Ned's kids have light/reddish hair, so as per my 7th grade biology class he must be carrying a recessive gene.
the reddish hair comes from Cat's side of the family. and I am guessing the recessive gene for the siver hair found on Aegon's head came from Ashara's family.
 

Reivax26

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I still think that young Aegon is actually the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Jon being the son of Brandon and Azshara sounds more and more believable as well. I just hope that the next book actually reveals some of the backstory.
 

ArstenWhitebeard

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I just hope that the next book actually reveals some of the backstory.
I agree! I don't mind waiting for 5 years to read the next book, but I would feel a lot better if Martin would confirm that Howland Reed is going to make an appearance in this book. I think we are pretty much all agreed that Howland is the only one who knows what happened in the ToJ, unless Septa Lemore really is Ashara Dayne, in which case she might know.
 

Reivax26

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I have a sneaky suspicion that the leader of the "Sparrows", the new leader of the faith in King's Landing is Howland Reed. If it isn't him then its the Faceless Man that Arya Stark ran into. I can't remember the guy's name.


Reed being him kind of makes sense since the people in King's Landing now wouldn't even know what he looks like. It was mentioned that he rarely leaves his lands, except for when he was fighting alongside Ned in the rebellion. I doubt the nobles from the southern lands even know what he looks like.
 

Anushka Mokosh

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I have a sneaky suspicion that the leader of the "Sparrows", the new leader of the faith in King's Landing is Howland Reed. If it isn't him then its the Faceless Man that Arya Stark ran into. I can't remember the guy's name.


Reed being him kind of makes sense since the people in King's Landing now wouldn't even know what he looks like. It was mentioned that he rarely leaves his lands, except for when he was fighting alongside Ned in the rebellion. I doubt the nobles from the southern lands even know what he looks like.
So far, it points out towards Jaqen being the Alchemist.

I doubt the Sparrow could be Howland Reed. I think Reed is where it is most obvious, at his home. Defending north best he can.
 
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