What is fantasy?

Originally Posted by Alexander Lesnoy



So magic is not crucial? The complaint I have is of much contemporary is where the magic isn't alive and at the forefront of the story, and what we are left with is some faux-historical epic with pretensions of realism. To me, that's not fantasy.

Nope. Not at all. See Titus Groan and Gormenghast by Mervyn Peake, Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Graham, Winnie the Pooh AA Milne, The Jungle Book Rudyard Kipling, Tarzan of the Apes Edgar Rice Burroughs.

All great fantasies (by my definition), but there is no magic at all.

No magic, granted. But each of them are magical in their own way. Too much fantasy these days is devoid of this feeling.

You are being disengenuous here, conflating numinous (which is not confined to any genre, or even to fiction) with magic of the Wizard variety.
 
1. If something impinges on the direction of the plot, then it is important to the narrative

Maybe. Ahhhh. That's a difficult one. I mean, the difference between plot and narrative is like the difference between tactics and strategy. One does affect the other ... but is James Bond about the gadgets or the spying?

I don't especially think of James Bond as sf btw, but certainly the Roger Moor episodes could be viewed that way.

Moonraker comes to mind. :p

Another one for your reading list on contemporary setting fantasy - Charles de Lint - he does a lot of shaman type and Amerindian legend wrapped into his works.

Tanya Huff does fantasy in contemporary settings - would possibly be considered urban fantasy. I rather like Summon the Keeper plus sequels and The Enchantment Emporium plus sequel.

Another interesting one in the context of this thread is "The Outback Stars" by Sandra McDonald. That is wrapping aboriginal stories into a science fiction setting.

Ooh. Thank you very much. I'll be sure to check these out. I think I've heard of Charles de Lint, actually :)
 
You are being disengenuous here, conflating numinous (which is not confined to any genre, or even to fiction) with magic of the Wizard variety.

I wasn't being disingenuous. I sincerely do lament the loss of the feeling of magic that I felt when I started reading fantasy. I seek to rekindle it. I'm sorry that you thought otherwise. Actually, I love Mervyn Peake's works, and for me, I don't need wizards to evoke in me that feeling of magic. If you read back to my opening post, you will see I wanted to talk about the feelings magic and the fantasy genre as a whole evoke, not the mechanics of magic, or who, wizard or not, is using it. It's more, on a personal level, what fantasy means to each and every one of us.

You're original point was well made, and I wholeheartedly agree with you on it.
 
I would make a small bet that any definition which was supposed to restrict the boundaries of fantasy you could make I could find either a book which does not obey the conditions but would be generally accepted as fantasy, (I've read technical service manuals that dived in fairly deep, which introduces an alternative question:- how much of the 'sense of wonder' we're looking for comes purely from word control? In the manuals in question the translator was not an expert in the translated material), or a book which does fulfil all the conditions and would not generally be admitted into the fantasy stable, or, most likely, both.

This is without going into the hybrids and frontier dwellers.

I don't think fiction actually enjoys being herded into neat little pens like its Dewey decimalised cousins.
 
I belong to a science fiction and fantasy book group here in Chester and this month's read was Titus Groan, the first in the Gormengast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. My problem is that while I enjoyed reading it immensely, I don't see it as fantasy. It's a murder (not a mystery) set in a rambling city / castle belonging to a dysfunctional aristocratic family and their deranged servants. I've met people just like them. I am someone just like them and I'm not a fantasy!
A fantasy for me has to include an element of the whimsical / impossible that isn't known to be true - like magic, fairies, weirdness.
 
A fantasy is a book where the fantasy density is mor than twice as hih as the science density.

ROFL

I wrote a computer program that counts the "science words" like "electron", "gravity" and "orbit" and the fantasy words like "dragon", "elf" and "wand".

It then divides the total of those number of words byt the number of characters including spaces and punctuation. So if a work has a science word density of 1.000 that means there is 1 science word per kilobyte. Not totally accurate since in real computer geekdom a kilobyte is 1024. But it's close enough for literary work.

J.K. Rowling's The Sorcerer's Stone has a science word density of 0.052 and a fantasy word density 0.324.

6 times as much fantasy as science.

Chamber of Secrets:

Science word density 0.048 Fantasy word density 0.444

More than 9 times.

Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End:

Science word density 0.669 Fantasy word density 0.012

Science to the rescue of fantasy. :eek::D

psik
 
SF and fantasy blur together in the middle, IMHO. Specific examples include CS Lewis's Silent Planet trilogy, which is usually labelled SF but has distinct fantasy elements; also Jack Vance's Dying Earth series in which the "magic" is technological (and stated to be in the books!)

Tropes that blur it further are ones in which magic works on rules just as unbreakable and stable as those of science - which IMHO makes magic just another branch of science - and of course Clarke had something to say about technology becoming magic.

I imagine that most people from the early Middle Ages, even the most advanced of scholars, would think most people's houses (in the First World at least) are abodes of sorcerers.
 
I belong to a science fiction and fantasy book group here in Chester and this month's read was Titus Groan, the first in the Gormengast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. My problem is that while I enjoyed reading it immensely, I don't see it as fantasy. It's a murder (not a mystery) set in a rambling city / castle belonging to a dysfunctional aristocratic family and their deranged servants. I've met people just like them. I am someone just like them and I'm not a fantasy!
A fantasy for me has to include an element of the whimsical / impossible that isn't known to be true - like magic, fairies, weirdness.

When I read the Gormengast trilogy, I was just struck by how magic something can feel without anything particularly magical happening. If you've met people just like them, then I would say Peake did his job well.
 
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SF and fantasy blur together in the middle, IMHO. Specific examples include CS Lewis's Silent Planet trilogy, which is usually labelled SF but has distinct fantasy elements; also Jack Vance's Dying Earth series in which the "magic" is technological (and stated to be in the books!)

Well, magic being technological wouldn't work in settings over than post-apocalyptic. Technology can appear like magic if you're not used to it.

Tropes that blur it further are ones in which magic works on rules just as unbreakable and stable as those of science - which IMHO makes magic just another branch of science - and of course Clarke had something to say about technology becoming magic.

IMO it's acceptable if the rules aren't 100% defined in fantasy magic, as long as there are clear physiological, psychological and societal costs that come with it. I would rather magic be slightly unknowable than superficial, glossing over everything with the wave of a wand.

I imagine that most people from the early Middle Ages, even the most advanced of scholars, would think most people's houses (in the First World at least) are abodes of sorcerers.

Especially the neighbour they didn't like very much. ;)
 
I wrote a computer program that counts the "science words" like "electron", "gravity" and "orbit" and the fantasy words like "dragon", "elf" and "wand".

How many words did you use in your experiment, and were the number of parameterised words equal on both counts? Much fantasy doesn't have dragons, elves or wands. :D
 
So, how do we prevent political autobiographies from migrating out of the non-fiction shelves of libraries and bookstores (where they manifestly don't belong, and are probably quite unhappy) and moving into our cozy little corner? Should the Dewey decimal system be extended to cover works which own up to being fiction, with publishers putting 'genre' codes on their spines so authors who write several different styles get correctly fractionated (and for self-published, who decides?)? I don't frequent the horror shelves much, but should there be an immigration service preventing 'Mein Kampf' from joining?

My public library (he says proudly, having survived more than forty years without one) sticks little coloured labels on their books, so presumably somebody within the hierarchy decides 'Oh, this is historical fiction that contains magic, this is fantasy in a historical setting, and this is translation of myth covering this historical period. I only hope they don't do it by author 'Oh, my dear, Bradley. She's written Science Fiction!', since I can't see administrators actually reading all the books concerned. Most of them would clearly prefer to class all fiction under 'Childrens literature?', and be done with it. I suppose the system beats scanning along the shelves for any bright yellow covers with black printing, before retracing one's path alphabetically, spotting out authors one has read about in the review pages of New Worlds or Analog.

Any classification will be imperfect; the more detailed the focus, the less precise will be the separation.
 
Any classification will be imperfect; the more detailed the focus, the less precise will be the separation.

As you say, the more one looks at the nuts and bolts of what makes a work of fiction fit into one genre or the other, the further one drifts from what it at the heart of a genre. Anyway, not all genre conventions can be said to be present and distinct throughout, and tropes do/should not necessarily determine genre.

I think a lot of people would rest easier if Mein Kampf surreptitiously inveigled its way into the Horror section. Unfortunately, however, it was never fiction, as much as one wishes it was.
 
How many words did you use in your experiment, and were the number of parameterised words equal on both counts? Much fantasy doesn't have dragons, elves or wands. :D

At the moment the list is about 250 words. There are a lot more "science" words than "fantasy" words. The program needs to be modified to accept words from and external file rather than have them coded into the program.

Any suggestions for more words to include will be seriously considered. I don't read much fantasy. I probably don't even have "ectoplasm" in the list. I just thought of it.

Plus there is the question of whether psychic phenomenon should be regarded as fantasy or science. In the 60s and before it was probably more likely to be taken as possible science than maybe it is today. Not sure what the fantasy readers think of it.

I am also considering putting a limiter on the word count. If the same would is used more than once for every 10,000 characters I don't see how it contributes to education. Jules Verne used the word "engineer" over 400 times in Mysterious Island and J.K. Rowling did the same thing with "wand" in The Deathly Hollows. This program turns up some funny numbers. Like Bujold uses "clone(s)" a lot in Mirror Dance. Not surprising considering the story but if the density is to indicate the amount of scientific information then the repetition of the same word is not very helpful.

But does that mean there should not be a limiter on fantasy words since there is not educational objective anyway? Is that unfair?

psik
 
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psik,

For me, ectoplasm would be firmly in the fantasy camp, though I could see how it might worked into a SF work set in 19th/early 20th centuries tangentially. The best way of getting feedback is perhaps to publish the full list so that ones on your list are not suggested again.
 
I should probably add a lot of plurals to check also. But it seemed a kind of silly but interesting project. I would think it could be useful to teachers that want to use science fiction to encourage interest in science but even science teachers mostly don't seem that enthusiastic.

accelerate
acceleration
airspeed
air-speed
alien
aluminum
anthropologists
anthropology
antimatter
archaeology
asteroid
astrogation
astrogator
astronaut
astronomer
astronomical
astronomy
atmosphere
atom
atomic
atoms
bacteria
binary
biochemical
biochemistry
biological
biology
botany
brain
wormhole
centimeter
chemical
chemistry
circuit
clone
clones
computer
computers
cosmonaut
deceleration
decrypt
digital
dimension
dimensions
DNA
download
eclipse
eclipsed
ecliptic
ecological
ecology
electric
electrode
electron
electronic
eliptical
encode
encryt
engineer
engineering
engineers
enzyme
experiment
experimental
focal
fusion
galactic
galaxy
genes
genetic
geology
germ
gravitational
gravities
gravity
helium
hydrogen
hydroponic
hydroponics
hyperbolic
hyperspace
hypodermic
hypothesis
hysterisis
infrared
Jupiter
laboratory
language
laser
lepton
leptons
lightyear
light-year
logarithm
logic
virus
wavelength
wavelengths
magnetic
magnetism
mammal
Mars
maser
Mercury
metabolic
metabolism
metabolize
meteor
meteorite
microbe
microscope
microwave
millimeter
molecular
molecule
momentum
morphology
mutant
mutation
Neptune
nerve
neutron
nitrogen
nuclear
nucleus
observatory
olfactory
orbit
orbits
organism
oxygen
parabola
parasite
parasitizing
parsec
pharmaceutical
phaser
phosphor
photon
physics
physiological
physiology
planet
plasma
Plato
pressure
pressurized
program
proton
psychological
psychologist
psychology
quanta
quantum
quark
quasar
quasars
radiation
radio
regolith
relativity
relay
research
retrogenes
retrovirus
robot
robotics
ruthenium
satellite
science
scientific
scientist
sector
seismic
singularity
solar
spacesuit
subspace
symptom
symptoms
technological
technology
telescope
theoretical
theory
thrust
trajectory
transistor
ultraviolet
upload
uranium
Uranus
vaccine
vacuum
Venus

elf
elves
magic
magical
magically
castle
dragon
knight
sword
vampire
wand
zombie
zombies
werewolf
werewolves

No doubt "wands" plural should be in the list. I wonder on many I missed from Rowling's books? :D

"wands" is used 63 times in Deathly Hollows. Did a brute force count with a text editor.

But some readers seem downright hostile to the idea. So I have not worked on it much lately since there didn't seem to be interest beyond my curiosity about the results.

psik
 
If you read back to my opening post, you will see I wanted to talk about the feelings magic and the fantasy genre as a whole evoke, not the mechanics of magic, or who, wizard or not, is using it. It's more, on a personal level, what fantasy means to each and every one of us.

Lifting me out of the day (and myself). Definitely a sense of wonder at times. A world where anything could happen. (But it does need to be consistent and believable.)

Fantasy doesn't have to have magic in it for me - Gods can fulfil a similar role - e.g. Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion books.

Two books with magic in, which I have also thought "magical" are

Sharon Lee "Carousel Tides" I reached the end of reading it for the first time and I just immediately re-read it - I didn't want it to be over. Set on the Maine coast, young woman returning home and picking up running the family Carousel in a coastal fun fair. But there is a lot more to it than that.

Tanya Huff "The Silvered" - just read that and I nearly re-read it immediately. But very busy week so may very well set about a re-read over Christmas. Set in a country where the aristocracy are werewolfs and any young woman with magical talent is trying to marry one (or her pushy mother is trying to get her noticed and married to one - enter the main female character). Story of invasion, different cultures, politics, morality and definitely magic.
 
Interesting list. It definitely shows your lean to SF.

Other SF words:
Evolve
Particle

Other fantasy words:
Rune
Spell
Conjure
Hex
Spirit
Charm
Prophet
Prophesy
Oracle
Unicorn
Dwarf
Witch
Familiar
Changeling
Curse
Dragon
Vision
God
Goddess
Demon
Farm boy (joke)
 
Now of course if I make these changes I will have to rerun the program on all of the books I have done so far.

LOL

Fortunately I made script files.

psik
 
I think your list is a good one for a certain type of fantasy (though maybe add mage, *mancer) and SF. But I can think of several books that will have a pretty low density for fantasy, but are still undeniably that. For just one example -- my mage rarely calls his magic, magic. He mostly calls it "juice" (or a pain in the arse :D). To muddy the waters further, I have guns and electricity

It'd make a nice talking point though, feeding through stuff and seeing what doesn't pop, even though it is fantasy.
 

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