Penguin Issues Books That Inspired Tolkien

[Extollager]

Books that inspired J.R.R. Tolkien get new cover art

Great stuff in its own right!

 

[j d worthington]

Indeed... very nice, and a valuable set of books for any lover of fantasy, folklore, or myth....

 

[Pyan]

Very nice, indeed - but the marketing is a bit um...stretched, isn't it? It strikes me as really being just a marketing ploy to raise sales of books that otherwise would have extremely limited appeal to the mass market.

I wonder who'll be first to advertise a history of the Wars of the Roses with the strapline: "The events that inspired George RR Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice...?

 

[j d worthington]

Perhaps, Pyan. But there seems to be a growing trend for fans of a particular genre (or writer) to look into the influences on them. Some are simply looking for similar material; others are looking for an historical continuity; and so on. So it is probably a little of both.

Incidentally, one book I don't see on the list, which certainly should be, is the Kalevala.....

 

[Extollager]

Very nice, indeed - but the marketing is a bit um...stretched, isn't it? It strikes me as really being just a marketing ploy to raise sales of books that otherwise would have extremely limited appeal to the mass market.

Well, sure -- Penguin isn't a non-profit public service; but I love that they are doing something that may bring these books to the attention of people who might really enjoy them, but might otherwise never have given the books a try. I can say right now that I would much rather reread the Saga of the Volsungs than to read 98% of what's published as sf/fantasy. The saga will make a lot of modern fantasy look like what it was -- stuff spun off an electronic keyboard.

 

[Extollager]

Perhaps, Pyan. But there seems to be a growing trend for fans of a particular genre (or writer) to look into the influences on them. Some are simply looking for similar material; others are looking for an historical continuity; and so on. So it is probably a little of both.

Incidentally, one book I don't see on the list, which certainly should be, is the Kalevala.....

Bravo, JD -- but I don't think Penguin has ever offered a Kalevala translation, which is kind of odd now that one thinks of it. There's a lively translation from Oxford World's Classics that I think you have read, and that I've certainly enjoyed. If one wants an old translation that Tolkien himself read as a young person, you can find the Kirby in old used Everyman's Library editions for lowish prices.

Between the two of them -- here, I'll change that; I was going to refer to Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. But let's add one more fantasist who was a great one for reading:

Between the three of them -- Tolkien, Lewis, and Lovecraft -- if one digs into their reading one will find innumerable hours of worthwhile reading. This Penguin promotion looks like a good place to start.

 

[j d worthington]

Bravo, JD -- but I don't think Penguin has ever offered a Kalevala translation, which is kind of odd now that one thinks of it. There's a lively translation from Oxford World's Classics that I think you have read, and that I've certainly enjoyed. If one wants an old translation that Tolkien himself read as a young person, you can find the Kirby in old used Everyman's Library editions for lowish prices.

Danke. I'll have to look that one up. The translation of the Kalevala I have is actually the Kirby translation, published by the Athlone Press. And yes, it is decidedly fun!

Between the three of them -- Tolkien, Lewis, and Lovecraft -- if one digs into their reading one will find innumerable hours of worthwhile reading. This Penguin promotion looks like a good place to start.

I had something of that nature in mind. I mean, this is a trend which has been around for quite a long time, but in recent years seems to have become a bit more popular. I think in particular of Douglas Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien and Lovecraft's Weird Tales in particular... but there are also the Chaosium series published under the editorship of Robert M. Price, which included not only Lovecraft's own stories, but the works which influenced the development of each particular theme or concept, and a host of newer stories which continued developing said theme or concept from HPL's time to the present. Of course, one of the first to do this was Lin Carter, with Spawn of Cthulhu, of which The Hastur Cycle is, by admitted intent, something of an updated version. And, of course, the entire Ballantine Adult Fantasy Series, not to mention the Newcastle Forgotten Fantasy series and the Centaur Press fantasy series, all were largely made possible by the interest in earlier works which influenced these (and other) writers...

There are other Tolkien-related volumes out there too, if memory serves, though at the moment titles escape me....

 

[Pyan]

The Kirby edition is available from the Gutenberg Project, in two volumes: there's also a one-volume edition translated by John Martin Crawford available.

Link

There's another interesting-looking book on that page: National Epics, by a Kate Milner Rabb, first published in 1896. Looks like a series of essays, covering the Kalevala, the great Indian and Greek epics, and others.

 

[j d worthington]

There's another interesting-looking book on that page: National Epics, by a Kate Milner Rabb, first published in 1896. Looks like a series of essays, covering the Kalevala, the great Indian and Greek epics, and others.

Now that one sounds very interesting, not to say useful....

 

[Extollager]

I had something of that nature in mind. I mean, this is a trend which has been around for quite a long time, but in recent years seems to have become a bit more popular. I think in particular of Douglas Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien and Lovecraft's Weird Tales in particular... but there are also the Chaosium series published under the editorship of Robert M. Price, which included not only Lovecraft's own stories, but the works which influenced the development of each particular theme or concept....

I was thinking especially of the three writers' reading outside the customary bounds of genre fiction. Often, a frequent reader of Tolkien, Lewis, and Lovecraft will have discovered some of the genre writers that they liked, already on his or her own. But often people who often return to these writers don't go on to explore non-genre authors whom they enjoyed, giving their reading experience a narrowness that their favorite authors didn't have.

Of course, few indeed will be the readers who can approach the breadth and depth, as readers, of so passionate a reader as Lewis. But then that's part of the pleasure of reading about what these writers read -- one's always getting leads for books and authors to try.

And that reading experience can have a good effect on one's rereading of the favorite authors. I should think that someone who has read around in Tolkien's books -- the Saga of the Volsungs, the Kalevala as you note, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Beowulf, other medieval works -- will read Hobbit and LOTR differently than someone who can read Tolkien's books only over against the reading of William Morris, Lord Dunsany, E. R. Eddison, etc. You would be better placed than I, JD, to point out the parallel case for HPL, but I would assume that the reader who knows not only Poe but some of HPL's 18th-century favorites, and not just Gothic writers but writers like Swift, Samuel Johnson, Addison, etc. would be able to tune in to things HPL was doing as writer in a way that would not be possible for someone whose reading other than HPL is restricted to genre favorites known to HPL (Hodgson, Bierce, et al.) and peers and successors.

Likewise, the fact of having read a lot in these favorite fantasists can enhance one's enjoyment of authors whom they relished. I am grateful for the fact that when the time came for me to read one of CSL's favorite books -- Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queene -- I did so as one already conditioned to enjoy it by having read the Narnian books (which in important ways are kind of Spenserian tales for children) as well as Lewis's writings about the FQ.

What a pleasure it is, to enjoy the Kalevala in Tolkien (e.g. in Tolkien's story of Tύrin) and, as it were, the Tolkien in the Kalevala.

I wonder if, in some of HPL's writings, the undertone is the rhythm of some non-genre writing, with the surface "melody" of the prose being played off against it. Does that make sense? or at least if he was feelings his way towards something like that? But at any rate it might be worth someone's while to take a non-genre author, Charles Lamb, whom HPL clearly had read, and to enjoy his writing for its own sake, and then also to detect the Lamb in some of HPL and, as it were, the HPL in, say, "Witches and Other Night-Fears."

A great deal of my own reading since the publication of CSL's letters to his (almost) lifelong friend Arthur Greeves, around 1980, has been following up on Lewis's infectious references to his reading. This has led me to innumerable hours of enjoyment in books I might otherwise not have read, both "classics" like Walter Scott and obscurities such as Alexander Kinglake and Lord Dufferin (travel writers).

 

[j d worthington]

I was thinking especially of the three writers' reading outside the customary bounds of genre fiction. Often, a frequent reader of Tolkien, Lewis, and Lovecraft will have discovered some of the genre writers that they liked, already on his or her own. But often people who often return to these writers don't go on to explore non-genre authors whom they enjoyed, giving their reading experience a narrowness that their favorite authors didn't have.

Unquestionably. However, my citing of the above includes (though it may not be apparent) information of that nature, if not necessarily selections from. (Though Price did also include a volume of selections from Helena Blavatsky for her suggestiveness in relationship to Lovecraft.) Nearly all of these talk, at least, not only about the genre-related stories, but other works which also played a part in the development of this or that in the particular writer's work. For instance Price, being also a biblical scholar, brings a fair amount of this into his discussions, generally with specific references as well. How much of this has been done with the Tolkien or Lewis aspects, I'm not really aware.

Of course, few indeed will be the readers who can approach the breadth and depth, as readers, of so passionate a reader as Lewis. But then that's part of the pleasure of reading about what these writers read -- one's always getting leads for books and authors to try.

Certainly this is one of the joys (for me) of reading HPL. As Bloch famously said of him, "Lovecraft was my university", because he served as the gateway to discovering so many other writers and subjects which broadened perspectives and interests.

And that reading experience can have a good effect on one's rereading of the favorite authors. I should think that someone who has read around in Tolkien's books -- the Saga of the Volsungs, the Kalevala as you note, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Beowulf, other medieval works -- will read Hobbit and LOTR differently than someone who can read Tolkien's books only over against the reading of William Morris, Lord Dunsany, E. R. Eddison, etc. You would be better placed than I, JD, to point out the parallel case for HPL, but I would assume that the reader who knows not only Poe but some of HPL's 18th-century favorites, and not just Gothic writers but writers like Swift, Samuel Johnson, Addison, etc. would be able to tune in to things HPL was doing as writer in a way that would not be possible for someone whose reading other than HPL is restricted to genre favorites known to HPL (Hodgson, Bierce, et al.) and peers and successors.

Likewise, the fact of having read a lot in these favorite fantasists can enhance one's enjoyment of authors whom they relished. I am grateful for the fact that when the time came for me to read one of CSL's favorite books -- Edmund Spenser's Faerie Queene -- I did so as one already conditioned to enjoy it by having read the Narnian books (which in important ways are kind of Spenserian tales for children) as well as Lewis's writings about the FQ.

What a pleasure it is, to enjoy the Kalevala in Tolkien (e.g. in Tolkien's story of Tύrin) and, as it were, the Tolkien in the Kalevala.

I wonder if, in some of HPL's writings, the undertone is the rhythm of some non-genre writing, with the surface "melody" of the prose being played off against it. Does that make sense? or at least if he was feelings his way towards something like that? But at any rate it might be worth someone's while to take a non-genre author, Charles Lamb, whom HPL clearly had read, and to enjoy his writing for its own sake, and then also to detect the Lamb in some of HPL and, as it were, the HPL in, say, "Witches and Other Night-Fears."

That essay I did for Dr. Waugh's anthology, Lovecraft and Influence, was on the influence of the Augustan writers on HPL's work, and went far beyond the obvious connections, studying also influence on themes, developments of themes, manner, techniques, etc. Though many feel their influence was detrimental, I have to disagree. His (seemingly)* slavish imitation of their form metrically was certainly a mistake as far as his own poetic development goes, but even the influence of the poets was, I think, largely positive in many other ways. For instance, who (other than you, in "Arthur Jermyn was a Yahoo") would have picked up on the relationship between Dean Swift's Gulliver's Travels and HPL; yet the Dean's influence is most decidedly there, in a variety of ways, and not only this famous example, but even several of his more obscure works.

One thing which helps with this sort of thing enormously, of course, is Lovecraft's Library: A Catalogue, which was re-released in a revised edition in 2012. While not covering everything he had in his library (a goodly portion of which was dispersed before a catalogue was made, and even in his letters not all titles or specific editions are given), nonetheless it provides information on over 1000 titles, in various fields, with references for those interested. A genuine goldmine for scholars as well as interested lay readers. As a result of consultation between this and the annotated edition(s) of Supernatural Horror in Literature I have, whenever possible, picked up and referred specifically to editions owned by Lovecraft in my own work....

A great deal of my own reading since the publication of CSL's letters to his (almost) lifelong friend Arthur Greeves, around 1980, has been following up on Lewis's infectious references to his reading. This has led me to innumerable hours of enjoyment in books I might otherwise not have read, both "classics" like Walter Scott and obscurities such as Alexander Kinglake and Lord Dufferin (travel writers).

Yes, I've long had the same sort of experience as a result of reading HPL; originally the scattered references in his fiction (leading me to, say, Mather's Wonders of the Invisible World or Magnalia Christi Americana), then later his references in his letters (there are numerous discussions of his readings in various fields throughout his correspondence), and eventually his essays for the amateur press, both as critic and editorially, as well as in his controversies with other members. I even tracked down a copy of Gertrude Selwyn Kimball's Providence in Colonial Times (1912), which he did not own, but which he did read his way through at the Providence Public Library (it was in the library-use-only reference section), and which had much influence on things he included in, say, The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. (As an interesting little coincidence, this was published by Houghton Mifflin, which also published Tolkien in American hardcover.) So yes, I can definitely sympathize with your reaction there.

As I say, I've not followed up on the Tolkienian relationships quite so much, but I'm glad they're being put out there in such a way as to facilitate those who are interested. As for The Faerie Queene... I hadn't been aware of that being such a favorite (or if I had been, I'd forgotten) of Lewis', but it doesn't at all surprise me given his comments on LotR; and for myself, with the exception of a handful of pages which I found somewhat dullish, I've always thoroughly enjoyed that work myself, having read it entire three times, and will in part several times over. Interestingly, though, my reading of this one initially came about through its connection to the Pratt/de Camp novel, The Iron Tower....



*People tend to overlook how consciously HPL imitated these things, often with tongue-in-cheek. This is understandable, as we are only now, through biographical data, becoming aware of how many of his "serious" pastoral poems are actual parodies or pasquinades of his friends, his influences, himself, or various other matters. Few indeed are those which are genuinely pastorals in fact rather than in name only.

 

[Extollager]

As for The Faerie Queene... I hadn't been aware of that being such a favorite (or if I had been, I'd forgotten) of Lewis', but it doesn't at all surprise me given his comments on LotR; and for myself, with the exception of a handful of pages which I found somewhat dullish, I've always thoroughly enjoyed that work myself, having read it entire three times, and will in part several times over. Interestingly, though, my reading of this one initially came about through its connection to the Pratt/de Camp novel, The Iron Tower....

A major portion of Lewis's first scholarly book, The Allegory of Love, is on the FQ; hiscollected essays on medieval and Renaissance literature includes several items on Spenser; and shortly after his death, Lewis's lectures on the FQ were edited as Spenser's Images of Life -- so an interest in Spenser spans Lewis's entire scholarly career.

Since you mention de Camp and Pratt -- it's fun to note that the American woman whom Lewis married was a member of Fletcher Pratt's circle before she moved to England. I am sure that one of the things that drew Lewis and Joy Davidman Gresham together was an interest in science fiction. The marriage helps to explain the presence, in Lewis's personal library after his death, of books that might otherwise be quiet surprising, but that I take it were originally Joy's, such as even a copy of the Arkham House book of Robert Bloch's early stories, The Opener of the Way, as well as other American publications in the sf and fantasy genres.

 

[Extollager]

I even tracked down a copy of Gertrude Selwyn Kimball's Providence in Colonial Times (1912), which [Lovecraft] did not own, but which he did read his way through at the Providence Public Library (it was in the library-use-only reference section)

That reminds me of my own exploration of a Robert E. Howard book and maybe even an old Arkham Lovecraft book, at a library from which I assumed I could not check the books out since it was in another county, back many years ago. I think I read all or nearly all of The Coming of Conan in this way, and maybe read some of ? Beyond the Wall of Sleep thus -- sitting at the library.

 

[j d worthington]

Beyond the Wall of Sleep? Woof! That one (if read in its entirety) would have taken some time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_the_Wall_of_Sleep_(collection)

By the way... are there any listings of the books in Tolkien's or Lewis' libraries? I know it isn't done all that often, but for writers who are so very much "literary" writers, it would seem to be a good idea....

 

[Extollager]

I wish I could pin down the memory of spending time with Beyond the Wall of Sleep in the Grants Pass, Oregon, public library. This would have been about 40 years ago, and unfortunately I don't seem to have written anything that would enable me to verify the impression. I'm sure of having read a lot of the Gnome Press Coming of Conan there, though.

Yes, there is a list of the books in C. S. Lewis's library. You can see it here:

http://www.wheaton.edu/wadecenter/Collections-and-Services/Collection-Listings/~/media/Files/Centers-and-Institutes/Wade-Center/RR-Docs/Non-archive%20Listings/Lewis_Public_shelf.pdf

You might be surprised to see all those Cabell books. My guess is that they belonged to Lewis's wife. What about all those F. Marion Crawford books -- not just the fantasy Khaled. That he should have a number of T. H. White's, Walter de la Mare's, Lord Dunsany's and Rider Haggard's books is less surprising. Note that The Well of the Unicorn edition is credited to George U. Fletcher, not Fletcher Pratt. Machen's public school-hating The Secret Glory is there -- if Lewis read this, I wonder if he relished the venom, since he had such a miserable experience of the same thing, writing about it in Surprised by Joy. He had Derleth's Strange Ports of Call anthology -- this might have been one of Joy's books -- so here was a chance for him to read At the Mountains of Madness if he missed it in Astounding, which I am sure he read.

(I once compared the Lewis library list etc. with the list of the titles in Ballantine's Adult Fantasy series and was impressed by how many of those 1969-75 paperback reprints were represented in Lewis's collection.)

The list dates to 1969, six years after Lewis's death, and after some of his books had found their way into other hands -- in at least some cases, at Lewis's own invitation. Still, it's a fascinating document. Happy browsing!

I would love to see a list of the books in Tolkien's library. he made a detailed list, for insurance purposes, in the 1930s I believe it was, but this has never been published so far as I know. If it ever shows up in Tolkien Studies, that will be a buy-on-sight item. Still, some of the most interesting books would have dated to later in his long life, since (for example) when he was retired he wrote about enjoying Isaac Asimov's sf, etc.

 

[Extollager]

Here's what I wrote a few years ago, in a column for the New York C. S. Lewis Society, on books in the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series that were also in Lewis's library:

Land of Unreason is one of a bunch of books Lewis owned that were to be reprinted in 1969-1974, when Tolkien's American paperback publisher, Ballantine, cast about for additional material for the fantasy market. Lewis's library and the approximately 60 titles of the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series, edited by Lin Carter, both include William Beckford's Vathek, five James Branch Cabell books, Chesterton's The Man Who Was Thursday, F. Marion Crawford's Khaled, Roger Lancelyn Green's From the World's End (the Ballantine edition was called Double Phoenix and included a work by another author), Rider Haggard and Andrew Lang's The World's Desire, Haggard's The People of the Mist, William Hope Hodgson's The Night Land (two volumes as printed in the Ballantine series), George MacDonald's Phantastes and Lilith (also some shorter MacDonald fantasies, gathered by Lin Carter for a book called Evenor), George Meredith's The Shaving of Shagpat, Hope Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist, and William Morris's The Water of the Wondrous Isles and The Wood Beyond the World. (Interestingly, Morris's The Well at the World's End, praised by Lewis, was not in the 1969 catalogue of his library. Perhaps he owned a copy that was later acquired by someone as a keepsake. The Well was reprinted by Ballantine in two volumes.) Also, the Lewis library included eleven titles by Lord Dunsany, an author mined for six Adult Fantasy releases. Richard Hodgens, a member of the New York C. S. Lewis Society, translated a portion of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (“Vol. 1: The Ring of Angelica”), the whole of which Lewis read in the original Italian. The Lewis book collection also included fantasy by Mervyn Peake, E. R. Eddison, and David Lindsay that Ballantine reprinted just before the launching of the Adult Fantasy series proper. Lin Carter would have been impressed by Lewis’s collection. Most of the material reprinted in Carter's series that Lewis did not own belonged to the American Weird Tales magazine tradition (e.g. four volumes of stories by Clark Ashton Smith) or had never been published before (e.g. Sanders Anne Laubenthal's somewhat Charles Williams-y Excalibur or Joy Chant's somewhat Lewisian-Tolkienian Red Moon and Black Mountain).

The Lewis library catalogue lists two other books by the co-author of Land of Unreason. The Well of the Unicorn (1948) is listed as by G[eorge]. U. Fletcher - - the pseudonym used for this book by Fletcher Pratt. Pratt's World of Wonder (1951) is an anthology. Such gatherings of science fiction and fantasy stories were then uncommon publishers’ fare, although the Lewis library included two of the earliest ones, Strange Ports of Call (1948), edited by August Derleth, and Donald A. Wollheim’s Pocket Book of Science Fiction (1943).

 

[svalbard]

This seems like the place to ask a question that is bothering me at the moment. I am reading a book about King Oswald of Northumbria at the moment and on the blurb one of the reviewers claims that Oswald was Tolkien's inspiration for Aragorn. Is there any truth in this?

 

[Extollager]

...one of the reviewers claims that Oswald was Tolkien's inspiration for Aragorn. Is there any truth in this?

I wonder if the claim has support in something Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, in an interview or in conversation, etc. Although I revere The Lord of the Rings, I haven't given a lot of thought to the character of Aragorn.

One place to check for support for this could be Paul Kocher's well-regarded study from 40 years ago, Master of Middle-earth, which, as I recall, has a chapter on Aragorn.

 

[svalbard]

I wonder if the claim has support in something Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, in an interview or in conversation, etc. Although I revere The Lord of the Rings, I haven't given a lot of thought to the character of Aragorn.

One place to check for support for this could be Paul Kocher's well-regarded study from 40 years ago, Master of Middle-earth, which, as I recall, has a chapter on Aragorn.

I have read Master of Middle-earth and I cannot recall any mention of a link between Oswald and Aragorn, although it is twenty odd years ago since I last read it. Must pull it out and dust it down if I still have it amongst my ever growing pile of books.

 

[Extollager]

The Independent doesn't think there's an Oswald-Aragorn connection.

Book review: The King in the North: The Life and Times of Oswald of Northumbria, By Max Adams - Reviews - Books - The Independent

Egg on their face if they're wrong...