Marvel comics as Penguin Classics

[Extollager]

I assume this isn't a hoax.

Penguin Classics Marvel Collection - Penguin Random House

For the first time, these classic stories of some of the most iconic super heroes in the history of American comics are Penguin Classics!

sites.prh.com

 

[BAYLOR]

Why not ? Comic books are both art and literature.

 

[Valtharius]

I support this.

 

[Foxbat]

Captain America and Spiderman are available for pre-order on Amazon UK. Release date June 2022. I may just indulge myself come the time

 

[Toby Frost]

Why these particular comics? I definitely accept that comics can be art, and I'm not the sort of person who turns his nose up at popular culture - the Bioshock and Fallout computer games, for instance, seem better art to me than most big-budget films.

But are these comics of particular value beyond the time that they were made and the nostalgia that attaches to things that are very much of one time? Are they particularly good stories, or do they have something important to say? I've always found old superhero comics to be extremely kitschy, like a Roy Lichtenstein painting. If I was to put any comics into a "classic" format, I'd probably go for stranger comics with more of an Alan Moore/2000 AD style. I'd be interested to know the logic of it.

 

[CupofJoe]

Why these particular comics? I definitely accept that comics can be art, and I'm not the sort of person who turns his nose up at popular culture - the Bioshock and Fallout computer games, for instance, seem better art to me than most big-budget films.

But are these comics of particular value beyond the time that they were made and the nostalgia that attaches to things that are very much of one time? Are they particularly good stories, or do they have something important to say? I've always found old superhero comics to be extremely kitschy, like a Roy Lichtenstein painting. If I was to put any comics into a "classic" format, I'd probably go for stranger comics with more of an Alan Moore/2000 AD style. I'd be interested to know the logic of it.

Marvel sells... That would be my guess.

 

[Foxbat]

No doubt these are being published on the back of the behemoth that is the Marvel movie franchise

 

[Abernovo]

I assume this isn't a hoax.

I truly hope it's not.

But are these comics of particular value beyond the time that they were made

I'd argue yes, on the grounds of them being Jack Kirby and Stan Lee stories. Together, they changed the comic book environment. I understand that this both agrees and disagrees with your question. However, the early Jack Kirby and Stan Lee stories are major parts of the jigsaw.

In the same way the Buster Crabbe serials inspired science fiction film-makers, and writers, or the way pulp fiction books brought cheap reading to more people, and had hidden gems amongst the best-forgotten. Are they perfect? No, but I think they're worthy of being preserved like this.

Bit of a side note, but I was having a conversation at a con not so long back, when someone was putting down their own work, and it wasn't 'literature'. I called BS, and deployed my argument of Shakespeare didn't write literature, he wrote plays to put bums on seats, and get himself, his players, and the theatre paid; Dickens wrote to order for weekly instalments without always knowing where the story would end. In both cases, they were judged to be literature, but the writers were writers, lucky enough to be doing a job they loved, and getting paid for it. 'History' judges, often after most artists have any say in the matter.

 

[dask]

Finally some good news regarding freedom of speech.

 

[Foxbat]

I’ve always been more interested in the earlier versions of these superheroes. I’m not sure if it’s not much more than nostaligia on my part but I do think it’s interesting to go through a number of early storylines and see how the character has evolved (if at all). I have an even stronger affection for serials from the 1930s and 40s for much the same reasons.

One of my favourite books on superheroes that didn’t make it to the main stream…

 

[BAYLOR]

I’ve always been more interested in the earlier versions of these superheroes. I’m not sure if it’s not much more than nostaligia on my part but I do think it’s interesting to go through a number of early storylines and see how the character has evolved (if at all). I have an even stronger affection for serials from the 1930s and 40s for much the same reasons.

One of my favourite books on superheroes that didn’t make it to the main stream…
View attachment 83798

This reminds of the the 1975 comic book The Outsiders.

 

[Foxbat]

I never read The Outsiders. In fact, I don’t recall even seeing this comic. That was one of the disadvantages of staying in the UK at that time and looking for American comic books. However, it was around the early seventies that they started printing Marvel comics in the UK rather than importing them. I remember they were in black and white and were reprints from the very first issue so we were years behind. It tended to be the more well known ones like The Hulk, Fantastic Four, Spiderman etc. I also remember others from Marvel. Dracula was one. I’m sure they also had a Planet Of The Apes series.

I can’t recall DC ever doing that back then so that’s probably why I never came across The Outsiders.

 

[Foxbat]

Inspired by this thread, I just bought this

 

[KGeo777]

How can they be literature when they have a visual component? Not to mention the authorship is under question--is it the work of the writer or the illustrator?
Another consideration is that it doesn't end--imagine if Shakespeare had to write Hamlet the continuing series?


Would "to be or not to be" have any meaning since Hamlet would be immortal?
A comic book character doesn't end.
Even when they die they come back. Nothing regular in life or Nature matters in a superhero comic.


It's not designed around story or character or mortal concerns. It is designed mainly around commercial interest--there must be another issue next week. Or we have merchandise to sell.

The Spider-man origin story works as a Twilight Zone kind of tale--but that is undermined by the continuation of it.


Moby Dick 2: Aquatic Boogaloo would probably take the edge off the ending of the original.

 

[hitmouse]

How can they be literature when they have a visual component? Not to mention the authorship is under question--is it the work of the writer or the illustrator?

Is Winnie the Pooh or Moomintroll, or Maurice Sendak any less literature because of its pictures?

One’s definition of literature or art is personal rather than written in stone.

A better question is whether it is good literature or good art.

 

[KGeo777]

I rarely hear Winnie the Pooh spoken in the same breath as Moby Dick or Oliver Twist. If Winnie the Pooh relies on illustration as part of the story-and you cannot read it without the images then it cannot be literature. It's something else.


Maybe pulp fiction should be included as classics.
I would also say that if you were going to have comic books as classics--then you would need to put Alex Raymond and Hal Foster to the front since they pioneered the medium far more than Marvel and were widely read by children and adults in their hey day.

 

[Toby Frost]

What about humorous books like 1066 and All That, or the Molesworth books, which are definitely for adults but require illustrations to work? They're classics of their type and are, IIRC, both in the Penguin Classics range. Which seems fair enough.

I think there are much more worthy and important comics that could be included (copyright and potential sales not counted). How about Maus, or Persepolis, or even Watchmen, Sandman or The Ballad of Halo Jones?

 

[Foxbat]

My latest ‘literature’ acquisition.

Is it literature? Probably not.
Do I care? Hell no.

 

[KGeo777]

Might as well classify paintings as sculpture too. Why not? The Mona Lisa is a great sculpture. Down with the inequality of critical distinctions!

In the case of Marvel, the artist would usually plot the story--and then Stan Lee would write in the dialogue based on the artist notes. That was the Marvel Method. It's not like a typical comic strip cartoonist where they do the whole thing.

TIME published a list of the 100 most important novels of the 20th century and the Watchmen was included. It just so happens this list was made right before the TIME/WARNER movie came out.
Disney went to the owners of Penguin Classics (assuming they don't own it already) and made a deal or vice versa.

 

[Randy M.]

Just to note, commercial considerations don't preclude something being or becoming a classic or being seen as art. See also, Dracula as well as the Sherlock Holmes stories -- Doyle had bills to pay, after all.

Noticing the large grin on my puss as I scanned the covers, I think maybe Penguin is displaying their tongue-in-cheek -- and that would certainly be consistent with the corporate persona of Marvel -- as well as latching onto a potentially large payday. Penguin has not been allergic to best-sellers or popular literature.

Another point: Great literature, or at least work considered of literary merit, is sometimes grown from the fertilizer of not so great literature. For instance, William Faulkner was a reader of detective stories and I'll bet his enjoyment led to his approach in the novels Absalom, Absalom, Light in August, and Intruder in the Dust as well as to some of the stories in Knight's Gambit (at least one of which was first published in Ellery Queen's Mystery Magazine). See also, Joyce Carol Oates and Michael Chabon, among others. And David Hartwell wrote that Shirley Jackson once told him she owned the entire run of Unknown magazine.

YAP (Yet Another Point): Classic is a much abused word. Classic Coke. Classic cars. Classic classics. Yet for at least a few generations comic books were a gateway drug to reading, maybe especially for boys and maybe especially superhero comic books. In the process themes of teamwork, loyalty and innovation were stressed. The first time I ever heard of antimatter was in a comic book. Pre-teen (I think) I recognized the underpinnings of The Hound of the Baskervilles in an early Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. comic book. If you're going to liken superhero comic books to anything, liken them to Penny Dreadfuls or serials or soap operas, where a recurring cast appears being put through their paces time and again. Maybe not great literature, but all things millions of readers (viewers, listeners) are/were addicted to and some went on to read (watch, listen to) more sophisticated works.