less than macho male characters

[Jo Zebedee]

Okay, so crisis in confidence here - do all our sff main male protagonists have to be chisel chinned, macho guys with no self doubt (and/or massive nervous breakdowns to overcome.) Any that move out of the mould successfully?

I can think of plenty in mainstream literature - Gatsby, Rhett (yes, despite the women and the movie, he was less than straightforward...) but I'm struggling to find sff ones. (probably I'm too panicked to come up with any.)

I wondered about Paul Atreides who is less than conventional... but even he is quite macho in ways...

I suppose a no gives me a unique selling point, which, to management consultants is gold.... but I think I'd rather have a half unique selling point any examples. Please....

 

[Mouse]

I love non-macho boys. (Pfft, you've read Ambrose haven't you?)

Examples... um... Fitz from the Farseer books? He's not massively macho. Although he can take care of himself. Fat Nevare from RH's Soldier Son books is probably a better example.

Richard in Neverwhere! Aha. There you go.

I will come back to you.

 

[HareBrain]

My protagonist lies on the floor snivelling whenever he has to do magic, so I'm definitely in your camp. But also, Bilbo Baggins? Thomas Covenant? Arthur Dent? Pazel Pathkendle? Anyone dreamed up by Robert Holdstock?

I think I'd find it harder to think of any who were really macho, to be honest. Except Conan.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Okay, and breathing deeply, thankyou... I loved both Ambrose and Orc... and don't want a conventional lot of characters, neccessarily. Just, you know that moment, when you think uh-oh..... (now, Conan... nah, couldn't write him with a straight face.)

 

[Mouse]

Nathan from the Bartimaeus books. Nathan from Death of an Ordinary Man. (Ok, does urban fantasy count? Cos that's full of weeds.) They're main characters.

edit: thanks springs.

 

[allmywires]

I specialise in non-macho guys. I love them! Most of the men in my stuff are less badass than the women, to be honest. Turn that trope on its head, springs!

(I can't think of any examples right now, my brain is melted from the sun and meringues)

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I hope they work or Angus and Socrates don't stand a chance. I know you disagree but I still think Angus is a bit of a pathetic wimp lol Gus from my urban fantasy is closer but is also at least seventy.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Hee, now you're seeing why I don't agree; I don't think blokes have to mega macho to be - um - interesting. Actually now I've calmed down (been calmed down) I'm trying to think of how many macho types I've liked.... Heathcliff, maybe, but even he had his pitiful side...

 

[Weird Era]

I think if you look at REAL guys, (Haha) its rare to find one who's a complete macho. Most machos probably (this is my educated assumption through being a non- macho guy) have some kind of soft spot, or maybe are trying to hide something under the veil of macho-ness, so maybe it'd be cool to have that in a character somehow.

My preference is to have just have well rounded characters: each and everyone is badass in a certain aspect, both men and women. I think complete Machos can get just as boring as the classic female tropes of the passive but beautiful damsel in distress

 

[allmywires]

Perhaps this needs its own version of my thread... Non-Macho Male Characters

 

[Weird Era]

Or Macho vs Non-Macho?

 

[Mouse]

When we say 'macho' do we mean butch? Or just manly? Cos Conan's probably traditionally macho, but I'd describe, say, James Bond as macho too.

Or macho as in 'perfect' man. Strong, smart, handsome. I hate those guys.

 

[Weird Era]

I suppose...it could be either? But I personally see Macho as kind of like a typical 'man's man' or tough guy. James Bond is more, as you say 'perfect' (in some people's opinion ) Perfect man, and I'd described him as kind of...gallant, instead of macho

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Um, I suppose conventional hero was what I meant, able to rise above whatever happens to them and get over it quickly... face it without any doubts, that sort of thing. Which makes me think that Weird Era is right - how many real people actually do what characters in books do. And then I read it and say, pah, not convinced....

 

[Mouse]

Um, I suppose conventional hero was what I meant, able to rise above whatever happens to them and get over it quickly... face it without any doubts, that sort of thing.

Ah. The smug ones. I especially hate the smug ones.

 

[Weird Era]

I suppose conventional hero was what I meant, able to rise above whatever happens to them and get over it quickly... face it without any doubts, that sort of thing

Then I guess its just down to the story. Whether you want a bold hero to save the day and for readers to adore for being a hero, or whether you want a person who may not 'overcome' his problem/ doubts, but still learns something, and the reader admires them for being human.

In this case though, surely women can be just as much of a hero who overcome everything they face?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ah, see now, I didn't mention my female protagonist, who is absolutely together, frighteningly so.... (but she still has her edges...)

 

[James Coote]

Most men are competitive. It's just their preferred sports that differ. It could be rugby or chess or being the biggest layabout sloucher

Most, but not all. However, you're unlikely to find a protagonist in a man who doesn't have some drive. You've got to find that underlying motivation to tease out the more subtle character traits

 

[Weird Era]

I agree. Especially with the fact that a protagonist, being a protagonist after all, has to have some sort of drive. However, I think that the more subtle traits can make a character as well.
Sometimes they are more interesting with such combination of subtle traits shining through, rather than simply being a case of "he has a strict code of honor" or "he is vengeful"

 

[James Coote]

I agree. Especially with the fact that a protagonist, being a protagonist after all, has to have some sort of drive. However, I think that the more subtle traits can make a character as well.
Sometimes they are more interesting with such combination of subtle traits shining through, rather than simply being a case of "he has a strict code of honor" or "he is vengeful"

You need to take it a few steps further.

"he has a strict code of honour" because he was victim to another person's dishonourable actions?

Actually he has been weak willed and ill-disciplined in the past and it has cost him dearly. The key word is 'strict'

Or maybe in his life, he's always been under pressure to perform, so now he self-inflicts the highest standards on himself

Ideally you the author construct him from the bottom upwards, but introduce him as finished product, and let the readers deconstruct him through dropping the clues or slowly filling in the back story