less than macho male characters

Perhaps this needs its own version of my thread... Non-Macho Male Characters :p

Yep, I totally nicked it from you....

Um, he does have drive, and inner strength, it's just that it's not unquestionably so... ironically I was once told the problem with him was he couldn't fail - not I'm worrying about going too far the other way...
 
Most of my protagonists, whether male or female, start out with the "Why me? I'm no hero!" mentality, but end up discovering they had whatever it takes to get the job done. Rather Frodo-like. Not being the hero type, they have some interest, curiosity, ideal, compulsion, misstep or something that gets them deep enough into the plot where they can't conveniently back out and are forced to discover themselves. I find that much more satisfying than a hero who goes in knowing he has the right stuff to begin with.

Someone mentioned Thomas Covenant. I think he was going a bit far, literally too negative and discouraging to keep reading. It has hard to care about such an a**hole. If he would just kill himself and get it all over with, it would have been a happy ending. :)
 
Ah. The smug ones. I especially hate the smug ones.

But smug and rise-above-all-odds aside, what are your thoughts on introvert/slightly nuerotic and painfully shy with a leaning towards silence? Definitely less than macho, would you say?

As an aside, I think characters who are less than macho are more believable. And the situations they face become more real too, with their less than perfect responses.
 
My view is I like a mix. Painfully shy is fine - could be useful for putting over info if used as PoV as they'd dither on the sidelines and do a lot of thinking (hence telling the readers useful stuff). Wouldn't want too much of that as then I'd be wanting to yell at them to pull their finger out. :)

Do need a dynamic character to drive a story as others have said.

What does "get" to me, are stories which assume that all men are macho and all women are feminine. People first, gender second is my preference.
 
Hee, now you're seeing why I don't agree; I don't think blokes have to mega macho to be - um - interesting. Actually now I've calmed down (been calmed down) I'm trying to think of how many macho types I've liked.... Heathcliff, maybe, but even he had his pitiful side...

I know, I know. Still think he is a wimp. He doesn't even come to not quite macho. He is bullied by his girlfriend, cries at every opportunity ...
 
Oooh I love un-macho blokes in fantasy. I can think of David Gemmell's Sieben the best pal to Druss. (one of the machoest men around.)
I enjoy reading them so much that three of the main characters in my W.I.P are less then macho, at least at first... most of them.
 
I think that with the reduced pressures in today's society to be macho that that should translate across to our literature.
That in mind I would think macho men to be the minority in protagonists club.
 
The male-lead in my tv-series is WAY OFF being macho, its all about a war and he never physically fights ANYONE and only even fires a gun once in the 20+ years the story follows him in all...

He does eventually end up as (technically the 2nd) Emperor of the the whole world though, so its not like he needs to be big tough and macho, he's a politician, not a soldier... I never though it was 'a thing' having him be like that, its just his character and personality, and was never a choice I made for any meaningful reason...


Jammill
 
That said, he's never seen as a WEAK character because of that, he is the leader of a cult that )eventually) takes control of the entire human race, but he doesn't need to be a strong male character for that to happen...


Jammill
 
But smug and rise-above-all-odds aside, what are your thoughts on introvert/slightly nuerotic and painfully shy with a leaning towards silence? Definitely less than macho, would you say?

As an aside, I think characters who are less than macho are more believable. And the situations they face become more real too, with their less than perfect responses.

Shy is definitely better than smug. But like Montero says, you don't want to frustrate the reader to the point where they're yelling at the character to pull themselves together and get on with it.
 
They don't have to be macho, but I like my men to be men, not "women with penises" - the equivalent of the "men with boobs" stereotype that's often levelled at male writers. I've read too many fantasy novels by women in which the male protagonist is clearly what the writer thinks/wishes men were like :)

I agree with Montero and Mouse that if you go too far in making your character unmacho, it can be frustrating for the reader, but ultimately it's up to you. There's a readership for practically every kind of character, you just have to find it!
 
Someone mentioned Thomas Covenant. I think he was going a bit far, literally too negative and discouraging to keep reading. It has hard to care about such an a**hole. If he would just kill himself and get it all over with, it would have been a happy ending. :)

Shy is definitely better than smug. But like Montero says, you don't want to frustrate the reader to the point where they're yelling at the character to pull themselves together and get on with it.


Which is exactly what happened with Thomas Covenant - grew bored,frustrated, and hated the whingeing prat, so gave up reading the books. Give me a sensitive hero, who's prepared to give it a go, even if he fails...
 
Let's also be careful to distinguish between macho and manful.

The former implies a sort of testosterone-fuelled preening which is often form over substance. Big muscles, a domineering attitude, a belief in the supremacy of physical presence and more than a little arrogance.

Manful, by contrast, is much more about the more positive aspects of traditional* masculinity. You don't need big muscles, a string of notches on the bedpost or a Ferrari Wang to be manful. You do, however, need to be respectful and able to make such provision as is appropriate to those around you.

The macho man might think that the apotheosis of masculinity is to be able to pulverise a Royal Marine in an illegal bare knuckle fight. The manful man knows that cheerfully assisting a elderly lady who has broken down on a country lane gets far nearer the mark.

Regards,

Peter

* To avoid further unpleasant and entirely unnecessary misunderstandings, can I make it clear that when I say "traditional", I do not mean that a) traditional is always right or b) that anything in what I say is supposed to undermine female emancipation or gender equality, both of which I wholeheartedly and unreservedly support.
 
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I would hope that the vast majority of people on here writing something WOULDN'T be writing any of those two dimensional overly macho comic-book-esque characters as the lead... While I appreciate, especially in fantasy, that you sometimes need one of those strong silent-type macho warriors (Arragon from LOTR) I'm just automatically assuming my fellow SFFers would have a bit more class about them than to make him the viewpoint character...

Even when you do have an archetypal hero, anyone worth their salt would be making him more interesting than a lead in a Schwarzeneger or Michael Bay film, and that would usually mean making him less comic-booky...

BTW... I love comic-books (ONLY Marvel though, especially X-Men) so it's not an attack on them, but they are full of macho-type characters (and not very forward-thinking female characters n'all), and the less macho ones (Spiderman, Daredevil) are a bit boring...


Jammill
 
I would hope that the vast majority of people on here writing something WOULDN'T be writing any of those two dimensional overly macho comic-book-esque characters as the lead

Not any more.


* Note to self: No women with penises; no men with boobs. *


Sorted.


;):)
 
I would hope that the vast majority of people on here writing something WOULDN'T be writing any of those two dimensional overly macho comic-book-esque characters as the lead

Nonetheless, tough men who are terribly good at fighting and make girlies go weak at the knees with their craggy good looks are relatively easy to find. Their female equivalents - nubile lovelies who can do martial arts and have a great line in sassy wisecracks - are also in evidence in much writing which I have seen*.

The execution might have moved on a bit from Conan the Barbarian or Xena; Warrior Totty, but the maverick, highly principled warrior remains a staple. For some writers - admittedly, often unpublished ones* - I suspect that fighting is an easy way to bring drama and tension into writing.

... While I appreciate, especially in fantasy, that you sometimes need one of those strong silent-type macho warriors (Arragon from LOTR)

I think you may have misunderstood Aragorn. He's good at fighting, but it isn't his raison d'etre, nor is it something which he much relishes. He doesn't even crack a single witty aside as he's wiping orc entrails off his sword. Aragorn's story is a story of duty and destiny and his own battles with the task set for him

Regards,

Peter

* I'm not referring to anyone in here.
 
Nonetheless, tough men who are terribly good at fighting and make girlies go weak at the knees with their craggy good looks are relatively easy to find.

Sadly not in RL :(

:D

I have to confess I enjoy reading about a character like this - if he also has a believable flaw or two. There's no harm in a little escapism, just don't piss off your readers with tired "first idea that popped out of my head" stereotypes...
 
Sadly not in RL :(
That's because you live in East Anglia, where the men all have gills and webbed feet. Get north of the Lancs/Yorks mill towns and England blossoms into an earthly paradise of sturdy swains and hearty outdoorsmen. Plus me and Gary. :eek:


I have to confess I enjoy reading about a character like this - if he also has a believable flaw or two. There's no harm in a little escapism, just don't piss off your readers with tired "first idea that popped out of my head" stereotypes
Absolutely agreed.

Regards,

Peter
 
That's because you live in East Anglia, where the men all have gills and webbed feet. Get north of the Lancs/Yorks mill towns and England blossoms into an earthly paradise of sturdy swains and hearty outdoorsmen. Plus me and Gary. :eek:

I may live in East Anglia, but I'm married to a bona fide Scotsman :p

(...hence the surname...)
 

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