GGKay and Writing is Hard!!!

Coragem

Believer in flawed heroes
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I started writing a door stopping wedge of a sci-f
On a radio programme a while back I heard a quote that said something like "the best writers find writing hard".

I've mentioned that here before because it helps keeps me going as someone who struggles as a writer, and as a true master when it comes to finding fault with my work … and as someone who recognises that as one of my biggest strengths.

Anyway, my confidence dropped a little lately. Although I'm really happy with my recent work I was going back over some earlier stuff and it wasn't as good as I remembered it. Yes, it didn't seem so good because I've improved so much, but it still left me deflated, conscious that I'm still very much a "student" of writing and a long way off fulfilling my potential.

The following cheered me up immeasurably! A case of misery loves company, maybe, but it's good to know that even the very best writers have to struggle and strive, and write and re-write and re-write again, and that they feel anxiety (i.e., wherein we maybe don't "know" that those flashes of inspiration are going to keep on coming).

It's taken from an interview with Guy Gavriel Kay (see http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/nyrsf_halasz.htm).

Coragem.



PH: Reading your work, the punctilious choice of word and image, I assume that you must do major rewriting.

GGK: A tremendous amount. It "layers up". My writing method, to use a metaphor, is a painterly one. I "layer up" the story, because I'm discovering where the scene is going; the first time through is essentially to write the scene. Then I'll stop and take a deep breath, and the next morning or that afternoon, I'll look at the written scene and ask myself: "How do I flesh this out?". "What details do I need?" Details are critical. "What nuances will make this work?" And it's layered up, sometimes ten or fifteen times for a scene. It's that thing of a brush stroke on top of a brush stroke, sometimes even removing brush strokes.... I think some of the reason for the successful realisation of secondary characters is this layering. Because, in the process, I find ways to add detail and dimension to the supporting cast.

PH: What aspect of the writing process do you enjoy most?

GGK: I hate writing. The actual writing process is not pleasurable, it's stressful, anxiety-provoking, draining and intense. And, the sense of responsibility to myself, to the story, to my readers grows with each book.

At least I no longer go through what I did at the beginning of my career which was feeling every morning when I sat down that I'd never again write a coherent paragraph. That would be a daily occurence early in my career, feeling that I had written the last good paragraph of my life. It doesn't happen any more. By now, I'd have to be pretty insecure and pretty masochistic for that to still be the case. But I do have an underlying anxiety that sharpens me.
 
Hmm ... interesting. I guess I am destined to be crap then lol I love writing - sure it can be draining and intense, but I sit down and laugh, cry and get engrossed same way I would reading. I do recognise some of the process in his words.
 
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Very interesting, Coragem -- I love the painting-layers imagery, not least as that's a tactic I use of going over and over a scene. Thanks for sharing the piece.
 
If you do something and are willing to learn then you will improve.

I like the writing, creating and putting the initial ideas down. The re-reading, correcting and editing can be slow and painful. In general however, I enjoy the whole process, why do it otherwise. I don't go for this troubled artist stuff, just get on with it I say.
 
Hmm ... interesting. I guess I am destined to be crap then lol I love writing - sure it can be draining and intense ...

We're all different, thank goodness. I very much enjoy writing myself … most of the time. But it is certainly draining and intense, as you say, and sometimes when I hit a road block I admit it can find it truly torturous!

I don't go for this troubled artist stuff, just get on with it I say.

Far be it from me to say that Guy Gavriel Kay is never just a teeny bit pretentious … However, I don't think he's at all playing the "troubled artist" in the comments above. He's just saying (in quite a humble way) that he pushes himself to achieve or surpass his absolute best in his writing, and good god, doing that day in and day out is hard!!!

Coragem.
 
For me, it's not the writing process its self that is hard, it's more of trying to make sure whatever it is I'm working on is genuinely inspired and comes from the heart, trying to develop my own unique voice also is posing some problems (I write in horror, sci fi, and fantasy genres). But the more you write, the more distinct your voice will become.

Trying to develop a critical eye on my work has also proven somewhat of a problem, and that's something I know I have to work on. One of the ways I'm going to experiment with this is going back and rewriting some of my very first stories (I've been writing on and off since about 2000), all with an eye of creating a better tale with the knowledge I have accumulated throughout that time. Lastly, I don't have a problem putting words together and such, though a thesaurus does prove handy. I'm an English major and being able to rely on that gift is certainly helpful I've found in tackling the written word.

...On second thought, looking at all I've wrote, I guess you could say is that what the author is saying is that coming to a point where you are consistently churning out great stories is hard, or that writing well is hard, which--I suppose--I would agree with.
 
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I love writing, could do it all day... often do, in fact. But the editing, re-reading, the 'layering' is harder for me. Ultimately more satisfying, but I agonise over throwing words away* and finding better; knowing it doesn't 'sound quite right' and struggling to find what does. It's impossible for me to read my own work and not find something that could be different/better, so when I do send work off, I daren't look at it again, because there's bound to be some word that doesn't fit...



*says he, having just ditched 45,000 words of my wip, and dumped a character by the wayside forever. Well... maybe she'll come back in book 2... or 3... The further I get from her, the less likely it is she'll fit in.:eek:
 
but ditching words is so much fun it means you get to write a whole load more crap - well ... em ... I do anyway lol

The only bit I'm never keen on is the start of a brand new story - it kind of feels like I am that person at the party that doesn't know anyone else. I know it will be fun and I can introduce myself, or make an uncoordinated prat of myself totally sober on the dancefloor, but right now it is awkward. Oh and writing the synopsis for Mayhem that took longer than the flipping book.
 
But the editing, re-reading, the 'layering' is harder for me.

I enjoy writing. But I'm having trouble learning how to write well. :)

it's more of trying to make sure whatever it is I'm working on is genuinely inspired and comes from the heart, trying to develop my own unique voice also is posing some problems

The only bit I'm never keen on is the start of a brand new story

I guess we find different things hard … which is as it ought to be, since we're different.

For (nearly?) all of us writing well is going to be hard sooner or later. It's harder sooner if (like me) you prefer to do a very high quality first draft, or it's harder later if you leave the really careful work for your edit.

Personally, for me the end result feel more authentic if I do it right "in the moment", first time around. If I have to go back and edit a lot later (as I have had to with my earlier work) the result feels less "natural". Although the impression I get is that most authors don't work like me, preferring to do a rougher first draft and then edit in an inspired way. Which reminds me:

'It is perfectly okay to write garbage--as long as you edit brilliantly.'
(C J Cherryh)


Coragem
 
I think it's more like you write, rewrite, work and rework the novel until you would rather blow your brains out than revisit that particular novel.

In another interview Kay is asked whether he ever finishes a novel and feels like he never wants to write another again. His answer was that he normally feels like he never wants to write another novel again when he's half way through any given novel -- when he already feels like he has been working for an eternity, yet the end is still far off.

BUT …

I don't think any of us should take comments like this negatively. Kay has repeatedly said he always wanted to write, and that he's incredibly gratified when people buy his books, and that it's an amazing luxury to be doing what he does. He isn't doing writing down (!), but I think we can all take heart from the knowledge that even the very best writers out there also struggle at times.

I'm writing because I love it and really, desperately want to do it. Also because I get to live so many lives in addition to my own, through my characters. But with that comes a sense of wanting to achieve my very best, which can be torturous and even soul destroying at times.

Coragem.
 
In another interview Kay is asked whether he ever finishes a novel and feels like he never wants to write another again. His answer was that he normally feels like he never wants to write another novel again when he's half way through any given novel -- when he already feels like he has been working for an eternity, yet the end is still far off.


I think that's me now... splat in the middle of a draft and every time I sit down to work on it I almost feel physically ill... and the first half went so WELL!




I don't think any of us should take comments like this negatively. Kay has repeatedly said he always wanted to write, and that he's incredibly gratified when people buy his books, and that it's an amazing luxury to be doing what he does. He isn't doing writing down (!), but I think we can all take heart from the knowledge that even the very best writers out there also struggle at times.


Yeah, this is what I take out of it. In a sick kind of way I actually enjoy how hard writing is. I tend to be the sort of person who really enjoys a challenge. The fact that I know how hard it actually is to write gives me so much more satisfaction when I'm done.


I'm writing because I love it and really, desperately want to do it. Also because I get to live so many lives in addition to my own, through my characters. But with that comes a sense of wanting to achieve my very best, which can be torturous and even soul destroying at times.

Well said.
 
I think that's me now... splat in the middle of a draft and every time I sit down to work on it I almost feel physically ill... and the first half went so WELL!


Kiwi! I see you with your NZ location tag. The username kinda gave it away too. :D

Welcome to the Chrons, btw.

I've somehow survived my 168k epic, editing the word count down atm, but I'm keen to get onto the next book once I send this one off to agents. Already got book two planned out. - not that I can follow plans :eek:

I'm thinking either I'm just overenthusiastic about my writing, or this tired of writing/sick feeling is something that comes after like the fourth or fifth, or however many books?


I don't feel like it is hard for me to write, but then, maybe he means its just hard to write good?
 
I'm in a similiar position to Paul Warren, having finished my first attempt. I'm already on to the next, the writing is not the problem, writing well is the issue.

I now know that my first work is not up to the publishing standard, but to be fair, I already know I can do much better than that original work. I will redo the piece, I still think its a good story, I have just learned more about writing since, with lots more to learn I'm sure.

Paul I wish you luck with your work, 168k on a first go is very good, writing is clearly not a problem for you, I look forward to buying it very soon!
 
Kiwi! I see you with your NZ location tag. The username kinda gave it away too. :D

Welcome to the Chrons, btw.


Yes, and thank you! I think you're the first person to ever make the NZ-Gumboot connection... :D




I've somehow survived my 168k epic, editing the word count down atm, but I'm keen to get onto the next book once I send this one off to agents. Already got book two planned out. - not that I can follow plans :eek:

Where would the fun be in writing if the book did exactly what you wanted? Are you going for local publishers or looking at overseas?



I'm thinking either I'm just overenthusiastic about my writing, or this tired of writing/sick feeling is something that comes after like the fourth or fifth, or however many books?


I don't feel like it is hard for me to write, but then, maybe he means its just hard to write good?


Hah! I think it's probably something a bit unique to what I'm dealing with right now. The book's in three sections. Section 1 has the protagonist in culture A, and the story builds gradually to a relatively eventful ending (war, etc). But then in Section 2 our protagonist is in culture B, wounded (emotionally and physically) and the second section is much more of a character development with much less "action". Then the third section ratchets up the action to an even bigger climax than section 1. Because I am so heavy on the world-building, moving into the headspace of a new culture is a bit disorientating. Then you consider while writing the original draft of Section 3 I developed a tonne of interesting ideas for culture B and for characters, with the intention of going back and laying them through Section 2, so now I have to do all that too.

All while sticking to a timetable of 5 pages of editing a day.

I think that's why right now I want to take section 2 and set fire to it... :D
 
I am just going to hijack this thread for a moment to prove a point about why I'm thinking of using a Pen Name...

look at my username, then look at the quote from Bowler's post, do you see what I see? ;)

Paul Warren

Paul I wish you luck with your work

Careful, I'm trying to avoid Mouse beating me up, it's bad enough that I remind her of bad pancakes...


Anyway, back on topic... I improved my writing considerably through the process of writing my book and being part of this community. The first draft was only 83k, second was 137k. Took three complete rewrites of the book before I was satisfied it was good enough to move onto editing. Even now I'm still rewording sentences as they get pointed out to me, or by my own observations.

I'm not sure if its a big achievement to throw away 220k words and still finding the enthusiasm to write another 168k, let alone finish a book, but I feel pretty happy I did.


Gah... Big edit:



Yes, and thank you! I think you're the first person to ever make the NZ-Gumboot connection... :D

Where would the fun be in writing if the book did exactly what you wanted? Are you going for local publishers or looking at overseas?

I imagine I only picked up on it because I'm in NZ too. ;)

I'm going overseas, I have not seen much to impress me in the industry locally so far. There is HarperCollins NZ I could try, but that's it. What agents I could find don't seem to be interested in what I have to offer, and if they are I'm not entirely convinced they are a good match for me. There is a couple of possibility in Australia.


Hah! I think it's probably something a bit unique to what I'm dealing with right now. The book's in three sections. Section 1 has the protagonist in culture A, and the story builds gradually to a relatively eventful ending (war, etc). But then in Section 2 our protagonist is in culture B, wounded (emotionally and physically) and the second section is much more of a character development with much less "action". Then the third section ratchets up the action to an even bigger climax than section 1. Because I am so heavy on the world-building, moving into the headspace of a new culture is a bit disorientating. Then you consider while writing the original draft of Section 3 I developed a tonne of interesting ideas for culture B and for characters, with the intention of going back and laying them through Section 2, so now I have to do all that too.

All while sticking to a timetable of 5 pages of editing a day.

I think that's why right now I want to take section 2 and set fire to it... :D

I did much the same thing as this, its split into two parts. I've got my prologue based around one main protagonist, but once the prologue ends it jumps to the other side of the world and follows the second main protagonist for 6 chapters. (about 50k words). Part One was all character development for the most part, leading up to war, forming relationships. Part Two is where all the action is.

Part Two returns to the first character and pretty much continues on from where it left off. There are two individual stories that combine together halfway through Part Two when both protagonists at last meet up.
 
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Careful, I'm trying to avoid Mouse beating me up, it's bad enough that I remind her of bad pancakes...

Really bad pancakes.


I don't finding writing hard exactly. I find characters easy, dialogue easy... story okay. I find writing description stupidly hard.

I'm not a painter layerer person. I like to get things right first time.
 
I'm not sure I know...

But short story wise, so far, something either works for around 5,000 words or it doesn't. And the ones that work are a joy to write.

Longer things: I like the writing and the first few edits. Problem with learning is the re-editing. There have been several times when I got totally sick of my wip and couldn't face it any more (once I put it away for a year, another time for 6 months). And it's still extremely patchy and in need of another couple of full-body edits. I think. And then it might be okay but it might need more...

But writing consistently I find really hard. Most days it's a joy and I love it. Some days it's terrible and I'd rather be doing anything else. Telling if it's terrible because I'm writing rubbish or terrible because I've just run out of energy is difficult.
 
I'm thinking about it, and as an aspiring writer, the hardest thing I find is actually finding quality beta readers to read my manuscript. People you can trust to give real feedback.

Locally, there is only one person I know who reads fantasy books, and he isn't giving me honest feedback. :(

I have my editor friend, but she doesn't read fantasy herself so can only comment on grammar and such.

That's what I find hard, not even knowing for sure that what I've written is a good story. I believe it is, but of course I would, wouldn't have written it otherwise. To date I've got nothing but positive feedback, but I'm not sure if I should believe it or not.
 

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