Kindle

[CyBeR]

Elvet, have you considered an iRiver Story ebook reader?
It plays audio books, has quite a nice battery life (have been reading on mine for a while now and it's yet to put a dent in the battery lines), reads pdf, epub, doc and a few more I believe. Plus, conversion of various types of files to epub online is extremely easy to do and accessible.
It does come with the disadvantage of having to reconfigure its own database every time you disconnect it from the USB cable after you've transferred books to it and it takes a while. But other than that, I'd say it's a good choice for an ereader.

 

[Vladd67]

However, I have some concerns. My main concern, that I don't like reading from a screen, was alleviated when I found out how easy on the eye they are. However a few remain:

1) DRM. If I can't back up my books to my PC and transfer them onto other devices then they are of no use to me. Yes, I realise you can re-download them if you lose them because your device goes kapput but that requires you being able to prove you've paid for it already. Whatever way you look at it, it puts you at the mercy of the industry.

In theory it shouldn't be a problem any books you get on Kindle are stored in the Kindle cloud and you just download them to a new device,I have my Kindle linked to my wife's Amazon account so we share our books, she has an ipad and loves the Kindle app, if Apple get funny with Amazon she may just buy a Kindle.

 

[J-Sun]

In theory it shouldn't be a problem any books you get on Kindle are stored in the Kindle cloud and you just download them to a new device

You know what can happen to clouds, don't you? They can evaporate.

And, cloud or not, you don't expect the format of your books to ever change to give you new features such as the ability to not read it on competing devices and to be able to buy the same thing again, like you do with videotapes - I mean DVDs - I mean Blu-Rays? Or Word This or Word That or Office This or Office That. (I've never had to upgrade a book before.)

The 'cloud' is another bit of computer nonsense that drives me up a wall. It's an advance to the rear to the time before PCs (or whatever people want to call their personal devices, insofar as they are personal) and back to a time when people used dumb terminals to connect to the real centralized computer which was out of their control. Returning computing to the 60s is not an advance at all. It is, however, a great way to have your data held hostage by people whose interests may not coincide with yours.

You know, ebook readers are expensive. Here's a new one with storage for only enough books to take on a vacation - you just delete them and get more of your books from the cloud. Why waste the space on your device and the data duplication on everyone's devices when the centralized server can keep them? It's so cheap (we raised the price of the old-style ebook readers to 500 dollars (inflation, y'know) and these new ones without storage are only 400 dollars! See? Cheaper!) it pushes out the competitors and those old-fashioned ebooks that wasted space keeping their own books "are dead". Sound like fun? And so it goes.

These topics always make me think of the Dead Kennedys: "Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death".

 

[AE35Unit]

Funny. I've never encountered this DRM problem. But then I only have one device, just like I only have one version of a real book, and my other half doesnt do ebooks so...

 

[Shingetsu]

My Mom has a Kindle and she really loves it. She takes it with her pretty much everywhere. I've been thinking about it for quite awhile. I have two bookshelves that are more than full. So it would be convenient to have hundreds or thousands of books in my hands.

But I'm kind of having a hard time making that leap right away. I really prefer having a book in my hands. Though I can see it being kind of nice for the thousand page hardcover books. Another thing is that e-readers and tablets are getting more advanced every year. There could be one I will end up liking allot just a year away.

It does seem this is the way books will be going though. Borders and Barnes and Noble are having quite a few problems lately. Seems like eventually they will have to do a print on demand thing for paper books.

 

[Hypnos164]

DRM was a concern for me, I don't like it on principle - it's a phase I expect these digital content companies to get over at some point.

In practice books are a 1 shot deal to me, I've re-read less than a handful of books in the last 10 years - if my cloudy books disappear I'd be unhappy but mostly "on principal" rather than to do with a real impact.

 

[elvet]

Elvet, have you considered an iRiver Story ebook reader?
It plays audio books, has quite a nice battery life (have been reading on mine for a while now and it's yet to put a dent in the battery lines), reads pdf, epub, doc and a few more I believe. Plus, conversion of various types of files to epub online is extremely easy to do and accessible.
It does come with the disadvantage of having to reconfigure its own database every time you disconnect it from the USB cable after you've transferred books to it and it takes a while. But other than that, I'd say it's a good choice for an ereader.

Thanks for the suggestion, but you lost me at 'reconfigure'. I'm one of those tech-challenged people who couldn't figure out an iPod (actually got p****d enough to throw it out!) .

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So I've disappeared from The Chrons for a while. Been quite busy last few months with a new job and haven't really had much time for forumming, though I do still check in from time to time. Anyway, I've been wanting to jump back in for a while and this topic was interesting enough that I feel the need to chime in...

You can take my paper books out of my cold dead hands.

I don't think we want to do that...

My books don't depend on power or batteries.

What Moonbat said.

My books can be bought used.

Not that it would be ethical, but ebooks can be downloaded for free off the darknet. In fact, there are free legit ebooks on offer at various stores from time to time, as well.

My books can't be deleted or obsoleted at the whim of the corporation that controls them.

Neither can my ebooks. But that's mainly because (a) I use a Nook rather than a Kindle, and (b) I always make a copy of my ebooks and remove the DRM, so they couldn't get to it even if they wanted to.

My paper books don't need net access.

Ummm... neither do ebooks... Sure, you need the net to download them, but that sure as heck beats having to drive/walk/cycle/whatever down to the bookstore, find the novel I want, stand in line at the counter, pay and then drive/walk/cycle/whatever back home to read.

My paper books can be shared.

As can ebooks. Some of them (officially), or all of them (unofficially, after removing DRM).

My paper books don't come with ads (some of them very briefly used to in a failed paperback experiment but I guarantee it'll work this time on this medium) - no matter what, my paper books don't come with animated ads. Etc., etc., ad nauseum.

Huh? What ads? Maybe I'm missing something, but in my personal experience -- including ebooks I have, or those belonging to people I know -- I have never encountered an ebook with ads. And I doubt they will; that seems like a commercial no-no.

BUT... thanks to all the people who flock to this nonsense, if ebooks "win",

Don't worry - it's going to be a while before you have to worry about that. Print still accounts for over 90% of book sales.

1) DRM. If I can't back up my books to my PC and transfer them onto other devices then they are of no use to me. Yes, I realise you can re-download them if you lose them because your device goes kapput but that requires you being able to prove you've paid for it already. Whatever way you look at it, it puts you at the mercy of the industry.

Not a problem. It's exceedingly easy to strip the DRM of ebooks. Takes all of 11 seconds. Once stripped, you can do what you want with that ebook (multiple copies on multiple devices, for instance). You don't have to (and, really, you shouldn't) depend on Amazon/B&N/Whoever to give you another download.

2) Devices are prohibitively expensive.

Well, I suppose that is a subjective statement since everyone has a different threshold for what constitutes expensive. But I really don't think the devices can be called "prohibitively" expensive. You can get a new Kindle for $139, a refurbished one for much less, or an e-reader from some other 'smaller' brand for under $100. Yes, it does still mean there is a cost of entry, but on the whole it is affordable for many. And keep in mind, it'll only get cheaper (as all electronics invariably do).

3) Paper. I like the touch and smell of books. Having a book on an electronic device is never going to truly replace a paper book to my mind. But this is more a sentimental reason to be honest.

I actually agree with you on this one. Some books, particularly ones with awesome covers, just feel so good to touch and hold. I love my collection of Joe Abercrombie's novels. Excellent covers, all of them. I spent nearly as much time admiring the covers as I did reading the books.

I am not concerned about the supposed threat to the industry or people's jobs. Society progresses by making the processes of production more efficient. If we rejected every innovation to the processes of production on the grounds of protecting jobs, we would still be living in caves and hitting things with sticks.

Agree whole-heartedly.

The real question is whether this is a genuine improvement. For some, it obviously is, for others it is not.

As you said, it depends. For me it is, for a couple of reasons. For one, in my part of the world it isn't always easy to get the novels I want. Some might be banned for one reason or another (though I've never really experienced that) or, more importantly, some might simply not be available because this is a small market and it can be tricky trying to find a book that isn't relatively famous. Not necessarily bestsellers, but at least something that's 'fast moving'. I can buy all the Terry Goodkind or Robert Jordan I want, but I know of only one bookstore that has Erikson's entire Malazan series. So, for me, the ability to buy ebooks helps widen my options by a considerable amount.

Then you add in factors such as pricing (which, again speaking for these parts, is not that cheap) and the ability to store thousands of books in a device that's less than half the weight and a fifth as thick as a paperback, and it's really hard to see why I would turn away from ebooks.

 

[CyBeR]

Thanks for the suggestion, but you lost me at 'reconfigure'. I'm one of those tech-challenged people who couldn't figure out an iPod (actually got p****d enough to throw it out!) .

Sorry about that.
After you transfer some books to it and disconnect it from the PC, the device will go into a mode in which it just says something about the database. If there are a lot of books on it, it will take a while for them all to clear up, so that's the disadvantage I was talking about. You don't need to do anything to it at that time, just wait it out.
But otherwise...no frills on this one, really simple to use.

 

[AE35Unit]

Thing is one day ALL books/magazines/newspapers will be electronic.

 

[thaddeus6th]

I disagree. There may be a permanent shift with most things going that way, but vinyl made a comeback and I doubt books will become solely electronic.

 

[AE35Unit]

Vinyl made a comeback? Yea maybe for enthusiasts and die hards but in general its dead. Along with VHS and one day paper books, petrol cars and gas heating!

 

[Fried Egg]

Vinyl made a comeback? Yea maybe for enthusiasts and die hards but in general its dead. Along with VHS and one day paper books, petrol cars and gas heating!

Vinyl is more widely available than cassettes now and there's a good reason for that. Cassettes truly are redundant, superceeded by superior technology whereas Vinyl was superceeded only in some ways (such as convenience and ease of use) but not in all ways. Paper books will be the same in my opinion. They may end up being only read by a minority of book readers but they won't become totally obsolete.

 

[Kierkegaurdian]

You know what can happen to clouds, don't you? They can evaporate.

And, cloud or not, you don't expect the format of your books to ever change to give you new features such as the ability to not read it on competing devices and to be able to buy the same thing again, like you do with videotapes - I mean DVDs - I mean Blu-Rays? Or Word This or Word That or Office This or Office That. (I've never had to upgrade a book before.)

The 'cloud' is another bit of computer nonsense that drives me up a wall. It's an advance to the rear to the time before PCs (or whatever people want to call their personal devices, insofar as they are personal) and back to a time when people used dumb terminals to connect to the real centralized computer which was out of their control. Returning computing to the 60s is not an advance at all. It is, however, a great way to have your data held hostage by people whose interests may not coincide with yours.

You know, ebook readers are expensive. Here's a new one with storage for only enough books to take on a vacation - you just delete them and get more of your books from the cloud. Why waste the space on your device and the data duplication on everyone's devices when the centralized server can keep them? It's so cheap (we raised the price of the old-style ebook readers to 500 dollars (inflation, y'know) and these new ones without storage are only 400 dollars! See? Cheaper!) it pushes out the competitors and those old-fashioned ebooks that wasted space keeping their own books "are dead". Sound like fun? And so it goes.

These topics always make me think of the Dead Kennedys: "Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death".

+1

Cloud computing is a gimmick, pure and simple. If I have spent money on a book (or any other item, for that matter) I don't want it's very existence to be dependent on someone a few states away who can push a button and erase it, for whatever reason. Books are tangible, and I don't want my collection to be subject to the whims of changing formats, technology firms changing hands and thus EULAs, etc. Licensed software is, in the long run, pretty bad for the consumer, and takes control away from the user, and puts it in the hands of the corporation.

Edit: I should add that I am a fairly rabid Linux / FOSS fan, and tend to go off the deep end when it comes to some of these things. When the zombies come, I will have my books, and for both entertainment purposes and weaponized utility, I prefer a 1,000 page book to a Kindle with no battery, that will never turn on again. :-D

 

[Vertigo]

Wow seems like this is always going to be a heated debate! I've a few comments to make. Though most have already been well made by DA (welcome back by the way - noticed you've not been around!).

First let me reiterate DAs comment on DRM, it really is so piteously easy to remove that I truly wonder why they bother at all. Haven't they learnt the lessons of the music and film industries, who have given up the pointless exercise of trying to block copying by code? It is doomed and an annoying waste of effort. So don't be put off by DRM it is trivial to fix.

Incidentally AE, you haven't come across this problem yet because, as I understand it, you are using your Sony to read out of copyright books from the likes of Gutenberg. Their books are all free and being out of copyright there is no point putting DRM on them, so they don't bother.

As to big scary Amazon having control of your property (books). I actually find that quite reassuring, however I certainly would not want to rely on it. But having removed the DRM (easily as mentioned) you are free to do what ever you want with any books you have purchased, as of course you should be. So all my books are stored on my computer and backed up by my normal automatic daily back up. The book sellers copy just gives me an additional fall back. Take a look at Gully's sad photo of his book collection after the Australian floods and then tell me that isn't a significant bonus. I can't see all the book sellers he bought them from originally kindly donating new copies to him.

Then there were a couple of comments about the proprietary formats issue. Yes this is silly, very silly, unless of course you happen to be Amazon; the Kindle and it's "proprietary format" (actually it is just a slight variation on the Mobi format) has probably boosted their sales enormously because so many Kindle owners think they can only buy from Amazon. Once you have removed the DRM (easily as stated before ) it is equally easy to convert any format ebook to any other. You can buy your books anywhere no matter what format or what ereader you have. There is absolutely no risk of you being stuffed by Amazon or anyone else, either going out of business or stopping support for the format. That's like saying you are stopping support for printing on paper; it's meaningless!

As for the jobs issue, that is also meaningless. Times change. I don't want to start throwing names about but wasn't there a certain bunch of people here in the UK that fought the steam driven weaving looms because hand weavers were losing their income. Ah yes, their (rather unappealing) name has even entered the English language hasn't it? You can't hold back the tide; technology moves on.

Oh and on that topic the vinyl versus CD argument really doesn't hold water. The whole purpose of recording music is so you can listen to it and vinyl does have a different sound for the purists. The whole purpose of books is to read their content. With the new technology this is at least as easy on ereaders as with books if not more so. The eReader makes life much easier for people with poor eyesight, for example. My 80 year old mum is a case in point and she loves her Kindle. It's like the whole argument for vinyl over CD is that it's physical size allows more aesthetically pleasing covers than you can have with CDs. Indeed this was one of the early arguments against CDs but it didn't live long.

As for batteries, yes that can be a hassle I agree but with modern eInk screens you get several weeks out of a single charge. And with that low a level of discharge I really wouldn't be too surprised to see them coming out with readers that incorporate photoelectric cells soon.

As for the comment about ads, I'm afraid the poster must be getting confused between browsing the web - lots of ads - and reading an ebook - no ads just like a paper book. Other than the normal ones you see in many books where the author's other books are promoted etc.

Someone commented on audio books. Most ereaders will now also work as MP3 players (my Sony certainly does) so you can listen to music while you read, but you could also buy the audio book as an MP3, available in most online books stores I believe, and then play them on the reader. In fact my ereader will even read the ebook out loud, though in a rather Steven Hawlings sort of voice and with none of the flair and intonance of having the author or some celebrity reading it out. Mmind you that does tend to drain the batteries much more quickly.

Ultimately it really doesn't matter what we think - que sera sera! I happen to believe ebooks will dominate, and faster than many of you might think. I also think there will always be a market for books but it will be either specialised or coffee table style books. Whether this is a good thing or not is moot. Was bringing computers into the office a good thing? We certainly have still never achieved the paperless office, but it doesn't really matter; it happened anyway. There are very close parallels with evolution - survival of the fittest not necessarily the best. Market forces will determine the final outcome.

Whoops didn't set out to write quite so much! Just call me Peter Hamilton

 

[Rosemary]

Well unless I go blind (heaven forbid), I shall continue to read 'real books', despite the cost and now almost lack of room on my bookshelves! There's nothing nicer than the feel and smell of the paper, turning the pages by hand and reading the brilliant stories within.

I fear too for the authors, who might lose on their well deserved earnings.

DEVIL'S ADVOCATEI actually agree with you on this one. Some books, particularly ones with awesome covers, just feel so good to touch and hold. I love my collection of Joe Abercrombie's novels. Excellent covers, all of them. I spent nearly as much time admiring the covers as I did reading the books.

I'm another who loves the feel of the covers of Joe Abercrombie's novels. Like charred edged parchment! They look marvellous too

 

[J-Sun]

First let me reiterate DAs comment on DRM, it really is so piteously easy to remove that I truly wonder why they bother at all. Haven't they learnt the lessons of the music and film industries, who have given up the pointless exercise of trying to block copying by code? It is doomed and an annoying waste of effort. So don't be put off by DRM it is trivial to fix.

And trivial to be arrested. I don't know where you live and it all may be roses there (though I doubt it), but not here.

As to big scary Amazon having control of your property (books). I actually find that quite reassuring...

You must have a different definition of reassuring than I have.

I know that you are unlikely to be arrested for daring to read your own ebooks on the device of your choice and they are unlikely to delete too many books from your readers just yet but

if my cloudy books disappear I'd be unhappy but mostly "on principal" rather than to do with a real impact.

principles are actually quite important. (And thank you for your concern for the rest of us who do re-read.) The principle of the thing is that you are technically a felon and your books are at someone else's mercy every time you expose your device to the net.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Rosemary, I do

I've got all save The Heroes in paperback, which is nicer than the hardback, I think.

 

[biodroid]

I disagree. There may be a permanent shift with most things going that way, but vinyl made a comeback and I doubt books will become solely electronic.

Vinyl came back but as a collectors item not for the purpose of being listened to. Vinyl records are very expensive in our country, it would be equivalent to triple the price of a cd.

 

[CyBeR]

And trivial to be arrested. I don't know where you live and it all may be roses there (though I doubt it), but not here.

You have missed a bit of a point here I believe. The DRM is easy to get out of, as Vertigo stated and that very fact is what will drive it out eventually. UbiSoft had a bit of an attempt with a few of its games but backlash from gamers and the continued prevalence of piracy made them drop it quite fast. I predict that will be the future of these measures as well, once the ebook reader market has reached a considerable size.
As I've previously stated, I own an iRiver Story ebook reader. Not the best out there but everything I own as ebook is on it and those in funny formats have been converted by way of free software from the net. So your problem with cloud computing can be easily solved by yourself simply owning a backup copy of your books (something you really can't do with your physical ones, now can you?). I believe devices like the iRiver will mostly be the future and proprietary formats will fly out soon enough. Certainly not a reason for people to be apprehensive about this new tech. Simply get informed on the devices and what they can offer and use your very own method of protecting your possessions for the future.

I agree with Vertigo on one more aspect: we'll very soon be seeing sun powered ebook readers so the battery aspect of the conundrum I believe is as temporary as the DRM one.