Mystery in Bolivia

Assuming that google isn't having a fit and I haven't been looking at the wrong site I don't understand the problem

Now it seems to me that if you have established a dock existed capable of handling hundreds of boats then how the stones got there is not a problem. How they were worked is surely down to where they where worked. Hoe they got the ships to the docks is just a question of irrigation something I believe they were quite good at since the apear to hav existed in an area that isn't famous for it's water/lakes or seas
 
Nik: Thank you that alleviates my not knowing how drilling could reasonably be accomplished. Spending 100 years on some huge project is something I can wrap my mind around.


TEIN: Reed boats used to carry 100-150 ton stone blocks? I confess I don't know all that much about the science behind buoyancy, but I don't think you can diffuse the weight of such a giant across enough reed boats to buoy them up. Am I wrong?


Dave: The climate does not show any signs of major cliimactic shift in the geologic record (plant life appears to have been the same). 1500 years is not a long time as far as the planet is concerned. Tihuanaco is 17,000 years old so I would grant that the climate was different then even without bothering to look.

As far as writing goes: they did not have a system for storing information that was not oral. This is a huge barrier to mathematics and one that I don't understand as being surmountable for architecture. I mean can you really sing a whole complicated plan to your huge work force (and I'm pretty sure we all agree that a very large work force is needed for a project of this magnitude)? I think, again, we can all agree that a high degree of coordination would be required to pull off something as immense as this?


As far as rope goes: I don't see that as much of a problem as you do apparently. Braided reed and other natural plant fibers can be pretty strong, and with stones that large having multiple ropes wouldn't be too much of a stretch (presumably these people spent a considerable amount of time working on this). But the size of the 440 ton dock stone still troubles me. IF it came from the same quarry as the other stones, then it was several miles away. How do you get something that large and unbroken moved that far?


Tihuanaco is just a whole different kind of mystery (but in a good way). Tihuanaco pushes the very first civilizations out of fertile crescent/egypt into south america. Also the time of 17,000 years ago gotta give it up to earlier men and women for know-how if they have an astrologically relevant city with pyramids a long time before the egyptians were setting such things up.



And honestly people, prestige only goes so far. Over the course of 500 years a culture changes, very completely. The United States/Great Britain of 200 years ago are very different than what they are today. Go 500 years ago Great Britain and very little remains in common with what it is today. You have to invoke religion in order for this to even come close to making sense. That's a cultural edifice that resists change and can survive 500 years more or less intact. What people thought was prestigious 500 years ago very rarely remains that. But what people thought religiously 500 years often can remain intact. That said there is still a limit to how far we can take this. Without a more firm idea of the time-scale I can't grasp what would motivate these people sufficiently to do something like this.

MTF
 
MTF:

Given the stones were coming from far afield then there no reason to suppose that the boats were made of reed. They had water and boats they could travel to where other materials they required existed. As for displacing a 200 tons its not that difficult
and multiple hulls could have been used as I believe the Egyptians did.

As for the workforce it's seems generally accepted that the first pyramid was build in a relatively short time (compared to the life line of a city) by only a twenty thousand men (during the holidays at that).

The writing problem is another matter. I assume that you base your argument on the fact none has been found. Yet you argue it would be impossible to build it without written instructions and drawings. However you argue against yourself here. If writing was needed and yet can't be found then either your premise is wrong or the people that did build the place using written record didn't leave any written evidence of those records... Oh wait a minute though, how could that be?


If we are looking for Atlantis (as most of these sites seem to be) then it has always amazed me that given this was all down to Plato and that's seems to be prime source of the legend his description says beyond the pillars of Hercules about 10,000 years ago.

Now I seem to recall that the best candidate (since there is no mention of SAntorini type explosions which surely would have got a mention) that the most obvious place to look would be the English channel. This was a land bridge and about this time was flooding. Since it's inconceivable that such land would be uninhabited. Thats where I'd put my side band mapping sonar if I was looking.
 
Speaking of Egypt, some of their obeliskswere very large and the Unfinished Obelisk was enormous**:

If finished it would have measured around 42 m (120 feet) and would have weighted nearly 1,200 tons.

(From Unfinished obelisk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).


The barges were, I'll admit, made of wood; but as Nik and TEIN suggest, if those South Americans were prepared to move very large blocks of stone, there's no reason why they wouldn't have imported other materials (wood) and those with the skills to turn it into boats.



** - Having stood on it, I can attest to its large size.
 
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IIRC, one of the head-scratchers about Stonehenge was how the Welsh lumps could be fitted onto the limited craft they had available. Even rafting would be a problem...

I suggested that the stones were slung *beneath* rafts. That way, the load is reduced by water's density and there's no risk of capsizing. Shore handling could take advantage of the large tidal ranges at the natural crossing.

Um, I don't think any-one's happened upon either 'dropped' stones, or evidence of saline immersion...

FWIW, if mega-lift cranes are not available, salvors still use pontoons & barges to step shallow wrecks ashore, tide by tide, by winching in slack on the ebb...
 
Joe:

I don't believe aliens did it. Aliens (Yes, they exist. No, I won't debate this with you. Air exists. Aliens exist. Deal with it)MTF

I am sorry MTF, but the fact that you cannot understand something does not mean that there is no logical explanation. One important fact to remember about most ancient people is that they were not in a great hurry. If it took them decades to move a stone then they would take decades or whatever they needed.

A 100 ton (or 400 ton) stone is heavy, but as I pointed out in a previous post the Japanese moved similar stones and explained how they did it. Amazingly the solution was strikingly simple; they attached barrels to the stones until the lifting power of the barrels matched the weight of the stone and then they floated to stone to the site. The fact that Tiwanako was close to water is certainly significant. You claim the people in the area only had reed boats. That is certainly true now, but it may not have been true 1500 years ago. It would require a much larger population than what lives in the area now to build an enormous complex like Tiwanako and PumaPunku and that almost certainly means that the climate was probably different. It would also mean that the vegetation was probably different. It is quite possible that the ancient civilization of the area may have had more than just a few reeds to use for transport. If they did them moving enormous blocks of stome might not have been as mysterious as it might seem.
 
Drachir:

The experts on the people who lived in that area say that their technology consisted of reed boats. They make this assessment based on the fact that the area did not have ready access to wood. I'm afraid that 1,500 years is not that long ago and scientists can make very good predictions about the weather based on a myriad of things (soil bacteria, plant decay, sediment deposits, tree/plant rings). The place has been a plain (altiplano or whatever its called) for quite a while. Yes, it was situated on a lake, and that obviously factors in some how, but not in the straightforward manner you suggest.


Tihuanaco was almost certainly constructed using floats (the best experts have fielded just such a theory) but it was built 17,000 years ago not 1500. The water level has receded as we approach modern times, so having a much much larger lake would have been useful (one that undoubtedly extended to the quarry). Also: the people who built Tihuanaco and Puma Punku are not the same despite being close together.


And lastly, just because I don't understand something doesn't mean I am assuming no rational explanation exists. That is intellectual hubris of the worst sort. No, I am far more open to explanations than you apparently give me credit for. What I am fuzzy on is why you all keep accusing me of some sort of intellectual bias when all I am doing is attempting to get to the bottom of all this while playing devil's advocate??? I want the best possible theory for fitting all available facts. If that is wrong, then please tell me so. Otherwise, I am going to continue to look at every link posted and try and look for ways in which something doesn't make sense until either everything makes sense or I am forced to remit and look at alternative explanations (of which aliens will very likely be one of the last; I think ancestor spirits will come before aliens...).

MTF
 
all I am doing is attempting to get to the bottom of all this while playing devil's advocate

Playing devils advocate, which can be a useful tool in some circumstances, is not usually a good way to achieve harmony as it is normally perceived a confrontational.

I am going to continue to look at every link posted and try and look for ways in which something doesn't make sense until either everything makes sense or I am forced to remit and look at alternative explanations

It is always good to push back the frontiers of ignorance.
However, a good understanding of physical possesses and existing knowledges is necessary for a proper evaluation, especially, of supposition advanced as fact, IMO.
If one is interested in ancient stone artifacts one might find advantage in learning about current and past methods used to move heavy weights, work stone and similar substances. Then follow up on loose ends to round out the knowledge.

I am a fan of basic logic, and have found a few approaches to problem solving to work a large proportion of the time;
The most likely solution is normally the least unlikely solution, and normally the most correct (although rarely the most entertaining) and often not completely correct.
Assumptions/Suppositions/Beliefs must always be modified when confronted by demonstrable fact.
Belief proves nothing.
You can't prove a negative, and the lack of factual evidence proves nothing.
When making assumptions it is best to ground them on reproducible fact at the appropriate technology level.
A large proportion of "information" on the internet is bogus, incomplete or distorted.
When encountering a pot hole of personal ignorance, research is necessary to achieve understanding so that progress may be resumed.

Re; Puma Punko;
Large relatively finely worked stones exist therefore someone worked them.
To do so they, probably had a plan (even if verbally transmitted, apprenticeship is a traditional way of transmitting knowledge and techniques in non literate societies).
We do not know if they had writing or knew mathematics. Which proves nothing and indicates nothing, other than the fact that we do not know.
We do not know exactly how they may have moved large weights. Although, if the large weights were moved it is obvious that some one, or something (earthquake gravity, large flood, etc.) moved them, most likely the indigenous people. The same with the finished stone work, we do not know exact methods.

To establish how they may have worked stone we need to get some of the same or similar stone and do some experiments. (Actually work through trial and error as the indigenous peoples would have had to. Since we may safely assume that the now lost information was hard won; we may reasonably expect this research to take years). If we can achieve similar results we can then propose a possible method that they may have used (but we still won't know for certain).

Enjoy!
 
Drachir:

The experts on the people who lived in that area say that their technology consisted of reed boats. They make this assessment based on the fact that the area did not have ready access to wood. I'm afraid that 1,500 years is not that long ago and scientists can make very good predictions about the weather based on a myriad of things (soil bacteria, plant decay, sediment deposits, tree/plant rings). The place has been a plain (altiplano or whatever its called) for quite a while. Yes, it was situated on a lake, and that obviously factors in some how, but not in the straightforward manner you suggest.


Tihuanaco was almost certainly constructed using floats (the best experts have fielded just such a theory) but it was built 17,000 years ago not 1500. The water level has receded as we approach modern times, so having a much much larger lake would have been useful (one that undoubtedly extended to the quarry). Also: the people who built Tihuanaco and Puma Punku are not the same despite being close together.


And lastly, just because I don't understand something doesn't mean I am assuming no rational explanation exists. That is intellectual hubris of the worst sort. No, I am far more open to explanations than you apparently give me credit for. What I am fuzzy on is why you all keep accusing me of some sort of intellectual bias when all I am doing is attempting to get to the bottom of all this while playing devil's advocate??? I want the best possible theory for fitting all available facts. If that is wrong, then please tell me so. Otherwise, I am going to continue to look at every link posted and try and look for ways in which something doesn't make sense until either everything makes sense or I am forced to remit and look at alternative explanations (of which aliens will very likely be one of the last; I think ancestor spirits will come before aliens...).

MTF

I think I was disturbed by your original reference to aliens.
Aliens (Yes, they exist. No, I won't debate this with you. Air exists. Aliens exist. Deal with it)
 
Two things about ancient peoples (okay 1500 years is not that long ago, but anyway...):
  • They were as intelligent as us, in that they were able to solve problems. (If all we did was to read books to find solutions, we wouldn't be finding out how to do new stuff, would we?) So unless the largest block was already at the site (i.e. moved there by some geological process), it was moved by humans and one of them worked out how to do it. (We're humans: that's what we do.)
  • They were as stupid as us, so they were prepared to spend a lot of time and effort doing seemingly daft things, such as moving and smoothing enormous blocks of stone; or sending twelve people on a 400000 km jaunt to somewhere where there's no water to drink and no air to breathe**.
Makes good sense to me. Most theorists on ancient human behavior seem to get in trouble precisely at the point that they underestimate those people's ability to do something. And the current topic strikes me as just a new chapter in an old controversy. And a South American one at that.

See: Inca Construction

Let's not let Van Daniken "logic" muddy the waters, i.e., we don't know how it happened, so it must be supernatural.
 
I think I was disturbed by your original reference to aliens.
Aliens (Yes, they exist. No, I won't debate this with you. Air exists. Aliens exist. Deal with it)


If you look at that original reference it is immediately paired with the statement to the effect "That no alien is ever going to come down and magically bestow wondrous technology on a race that is the evolutionary equivalent of ants compared to them."


I'm looking for the missing factors that lead to how this could be done.


Happy Joe: I have looked into the peoples from the anthropological side of things (this isn't all internet research I do have access to a library) and the indigenous peoples of that area did not have a writing system. Now I am not going to go so far as to say that all math is impossible without writing (that is obviously wrong), but pretty much every class I'm ever seen regarding architecture and engineering required written plans to do anything of large or complex in nature.

There is a missing factor here, and I was hoping to maybe tease something out that would help make sense here. If everyone is just going to shrug their heads, then I guess we can just live and let die.

MTF
 
MTF
...but pretty much every class I'm ever seen regarding architecture and engineering required written plans to do anything of large or complex in nature.

Again you can't have this as a contradiction. You're saying that these things need plans and that those plans have been removed.

So why the need for some "mysterious" tidier/cleaner up of plans. If I can build structures like these surely I'm capable of tidying up after myself.

Then ask yourself if aliens having mastered space travel why, why, why would they go to some planet half was across the galaxy to play with some stones and just leave them there with no trace of their passing.

I can't conceive of a super race that would bother to do it let alone having done it resist the temptation of sticking some kind of graffiti on the wall.
 
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Again you can't have this as a contradiction. You're saying that these things need plans and that those plans have been removed.

So why the need for some "mysterious" tidier/cleaner up of plans. If I can build structures like these surely I'm capable of tidying up after myself.

Then ask yourself if aliens having mastered space travel why, why, why would they go to some planet half was across the galaxy to play with some stones and just leave them there with no trace of their passing.

I can't conceive of a super race that would bother to do it let alone having done it resist the temptation of sticking some kind of graffiti on the wall.



*Calms down* I am not actually suggesting aliens did it. If you actually bothered to read my posts you would have noticed that I've already said it twice that the chances of aliens bothering to help ant-like races is next to zero for exactly the same reasons you suggest.


If your main point is we just can't find their plans because they got rid of them, then how about suggesting how they did it without a system of writing? These people, to the best knowledge and awareness of our anthropologists, were without writing. How do you plan effectively without writing?

If oral planning is all that's left, then I am left with what I perceive to be a lack of reasonable choices. Building something without the best tools/materials easily available is idiocy (change your freaking location). Needing decades to plan because of conflicting or unnecessary oral plans is bonkers. Then spending hundreds of years building on top of that is papering greenly very on toastish lunacy. It takes a kind of societal make up and individual personality composition so foreign to me that I would reject it almost out of hand were it not for those bloody ruins.

MTF
 
I don't understand the question.

Obviously they accomplished the task, given that the evidence is there on the hilltop. Native Americans were accomplished workers in stone and earth, examples being the Nazca Lines and other earthen works across both continents.

Are you suggesting they did it with magic/aliens/psychic powers?

The builders of Stone Henge and the Egyptian pyramids moved large blocks of stone, so the ancients did indeed have technologies capable of such feats. The article should say, "We don't know how they did it."
 
I think people are getting confused. MTF isn't arguing a theory, he's testing everyone else's theories by picking holes in them. We do the same thing in law, if someone has a solution to a legal problem, we try to find all the flaws in it, and if it stands up against that, then it's a workable solution.

At least this is how I see it.
 

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