Invented Languages -- This way lies madness?

[L'Aile]

On personal background, I'm fluent (both writing and talking) in two languages, is able to understand and be understood even on quite complex topic in 3 more , and have notions (enough to ask my road when travelling or the price of something) in another three. Yet, I'm not sure my thought process has changed greatly mainly because, except 2 of the 3 I have notions in, all the others are indo-europeans languages (french, english, italian, spanish, occitan, lombardian, portuguese). The only difference I've notice is that I tend to be more direct and harsh using english. I'm more easygoing in french and italian.

I usually dream in french, english or a mix between italian, occitan, and lombardian, depending on the location of my dreams. Or maybe I think I dream in this languages ? Strangely, when I dream I speak a language I don't know (morpokian for example, don't ask why), I use english as the foreign language.

And no, I won't try to invent another language, except for the few word describing something that don't exist yet.

True, I assume, that the Indo-European languages seem to overlap in some areas, but I have dreamt in French and Japanese--even once that I was fluent in Thai (and I only speak a few words, it is my husband that is fluent.) All the time I was cognizant of being able to produce and make myself understood with precision--but my thoughts were far more sweeping, and I felt like an observer in many respects--almost like words weren't enought to keep up with the speed of my experiences.

I'd be happy to be a resource for anyone with a linguistics question--although I got my degree about 10 years ago, so I may not be entirely "up to date".

Kelpie, I don't necessarily have a resource for you and the alphabet thing, but I will say that it should be relatively easy to assign interesting and unusual "symbols" to represent your phonemes. Here's an idea, taken from Korean...
The Korean characters represent the shape of the mouth and position of the tongue when producing the phoneme. Maybe something like that would suit?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

That sounds like a very interesting idea, L'Aile -- though I'm not sure exactly how that would work.

However, since the names of the letters in my alphabet are supposed to be those of trees and other plants, probably the letter forms should suggest tree, branch, or leaf shapes. Working this out and still coming up with something that would be functional worries me a lot.

On a more positive note, I've come across a website that looks quite interesting, it includes something called a Language Construction Kit, and it sounds like the fellow who put it together really knows his stuff.

The URL is: http://www.zompist.com/kit.html

 

[An8el]

thanks Kelpie for that www.zompist.com language construction kit tip - It's an amazing resource from people who are REALLY into making languages!

 

[Drachir]

Language constructioin kit. That is fantastic. I will add it to my bookmarks and consult it next time I am tryng to think of something for my characters to say.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I found another link of possible interest:

http://www.langmaker.com/ml0101.htm

 

[L'Aile]

Just a few ideas for people who are coming up with their own languages/alphabets---

I actually did 'invent' a few languages for my book, but ended up using a couple of languages that I am familiar with, and doing a consonant or vowel shift within the language--that way the words aren't totally familar to anyone who might know the languages (okay, I'll "fess" up--I used french and japanese), but they follow a pattern. I guess it wouldn't be too hard for a speaker of those languages to go back and reconstruct.

Some ideas for dealing with alphabets---How about looking a little at some of the "alternative" writing forms out there, and adapting them to make them your own? I don't have a specific site, but if you google "Egyptian Hieroglyphics", you can do a little research into pictographs/hieroglyphics. I think it is important to remember that you don't necessarily need to think of your language as using an alphabet/phoneme system like english and many of the indo-european languages employ. Japanese uses characters (kanji) to represent sounds, groups of sounds, and meanings, but they also have a couple of syllabaries(sp?) to represent phonemes (katakana and hiragana). A little research can go a long way in finding something concrete from "reality" that you can take and tweak enough to make it your own "fantasy". I'm jumping down off of my soapbox. Hope this might help someone.

 

[Erin99]

Not at all, L'Aile -- if you hadn't asked I wouldn't have known you were interested in languages or been able to direct you to this thread. Now that we all know you have a BA in linguistics, it's likely that those of us who have been reckless enough to try the invented language thing without the necessary background will be asking you questions from time to time. Prepare yourself to become a Valuable Resource to the linguistically disadvantaged.

My next challenge will probably be invented an alphabet to go with my language. I've referenced it in the book, and probably sooner or later someone will ask to see it.

I'd love to hear what anyone who has gone to the lengths of inventing an alphabet regards as the challenges, the pitfalls, and (if any) the best resources.

Thought I'd dredge this thread up from the deep, so I can share my thoughts!


Well, for me the hardest part of inventing both my languages was being able to take my set of grammatical rules, then write several long paragraphs that logically and consistently followed them. English is very much a verbose language, whereas in other parts of the world one word can convey a complex idea. Hence the length of English sentences:

Example in English: I will be walking to the market.
Translation into one of my languages: nílisodél ín gelopa

You ask about the lengths people have gone to -- well, I've studied the fundamentals of three languages, seeing how they're put together and what they're comprised of (so no end of sentence prepositions for me!). This research has been time-consuming yet necessary. Another aspect I found difficult though: tenses -- past perfect, perfect, simple past, simple future, present... the list goes on! Then there are participles, adverbs, and adjectives, which all require separate endings, depending on context...

I still think the work has benefited me, though; I've made use of my constructed language throughout my novel, dropping little bits and pieces of info that I hope are worth mentioning -- such as sám simel, which mean fisherman/fisherwoman. That being said, sometimes if the sentence I've written looks too complex, I'll add a small footnote at the bottom of the page giving a rough translation. I don't know if this is okay to do, or even if readers would hate this -- but it just seemed appropriate. If or when I get a publisher, I'll know for certain if this is horrendous (they'll probably shout at me or something!). Until that time, however, I'm quite happy to keep adding small segments of my language into my novels.

Do I feel I've wasted my time on a language no one but me will care about? No. I see it as just another part of the background that goes into planning a series. Besides, does an average reader really understand what goes into a book anyhow? Do they *truly* know how much work is involved? The way I see it, most people won't care either way, so if inventing a language makes me happy, then I'll plough on regardless. What I hate most, though, are the people who say "Tolkien rip-off". Can't someone go into this much detail and background without looking like we're copying his ideas? For me, creating the language seemed a logical step as I planned my books.

However, this is moot point. As one earlier poster said, someone qualified will undoubtedly rip the language to bits -- but at least I tried, and in my mind that's all that matters.

And as one who can sit back and know I've done it, I think the process is worth it in the end. Now I can say (to some degree) that I've composed a speakable, workable language (though is language ever "finished"?) and I've loved every moment of it. It doesn't hurt that I've also learnt a few things in the process. However, would I do it all again? No way!


Komameráe al beráe. (In my language that's an informal goodbye!)


I'll leave you with a proverb (in my other language):



P.S. Did you ever design your alphabet, Teresa? Personal opinion: creating a visual representation of all your hard work is very rewarding!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I did begin to work on an alphabet, but I never got very far. Maybe that's something I will find time to do before the final book comes out. Your alphabet is very pretty, Leisha, and going by the samples you've given, the language itself looks like it would be attractive to the eye and ear as well.

But actually, English has such a wide vocabulary compared to many languages, when a book is translated into one of those languages it can take a lot more words to get across the exact meaning that you can pinpoint with one single word in English. (My own books are much longer in German, for instance. I haven't seen the Polish or Russian editions.) But yes, I think with highly inflected languages the simple, direct sentences come out shorter than their English counterparts.

And sometimes English just seems more long-winded because someone is writing it badly. One of my major faults is to make sentences longer than they need to be by qualifying everything. Lots of extra buts, howevers, neverthelesses ...

 

[Erin99]

I did begin to work on an alphabet, but I never got very far. Maybe that's something I will find time to do before the final book comes out. Your alphabet is very pretty, Leisha, and going by the samples you've given, the language itself looks like it would be attractive to the eye and ear as well.

I designed it with that in mind -- to be speakable, workable, and natural-looking. I'm glad someone thinks it worked!

But actually, English has such a wide vocabulary compared to many languages, when a book is translated into one of those languages it can take a lot more words to get across the exact meaning that you can pinpoint with one single word in English.

I'd say you can pinpoint your exact meaning in a multitude of correct single words; English has many synonyms.
As for other languages being longer, yes, I found that too when working on my language. Sometimes my sentences were four or five words longer because I was lacking that one simple one that we have in English... that's annoying, but it's also part of language.

One of my major faults is to make sentences longer than they need to be by qualifying everything. Lots of extra buts, howevers, neverthelesses ...

Ah, we suffer the same ailment! During my second, third, fourth, and fifth re-writes I still have to go through and delete a lot of unnessesary "buts" and "howevers".


One tip which will make designing your alphabet easier: Once you've designed it, convert it to a computer font by using one of the many programs available for download on the net. To make mine, I used a thirty-day trial of FontCreator - The Most Popular Font Editor!
Once you've turned your alphabet into a font, you install it into your C:/Windows/Fonts folder (by copying and pasting your font into this location), then when you open your writing program, e.g. Word, you'll see your font in the dropdown box of installed fonts. Sometimes for fun I'll highlight open documents I'm working on and change the font to one of my made up ones -- suddenly the page looks so much different!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It had never occurred to me that there might be a program available for creating fonts. That alone makes the idea of working on the alphabet much more appealing.

But the program would have to be available in a version for the Mac. (And I don't use Word.) Do you know if it is?

 

[Erin99]

Just checked for you...

The one I use doesn't support mac, but I found a couple that do:

Fontlab Typographic Tools - font editors and converters - FontLab Studio

Fontlab Typographic Tools - font editors and converters - TypeTool 3<small> NEW!</small>

There's this one too, but it looks simpler: SourceForge.net: Files

As for not having Word (good on you!), once your font is installed into your system, any application that lets you pick a font will be able to use and display it. In windows, the simple program that comes with XP -- called "Notepad" -- can display my fonts, so you'll have no problems.

Just remember to store a backup copy somewhere of your created fonts, else if your operating system needs to be re-installed, you'll lose it, and any document that uses your font will display incorrectly.

Hope that's of some use!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Thank you! I'll look at those when I get a chance. (Although the simpler one would probably be the best, considering my general level of incompetency when it comes to doing anything on the computer.)

 

[Erin99]

Actually, the first two programs (which are by the same company) appear the easiest to use and look very similar to the one I used. The third program looks simpler in the sense that it's open source and free, therefore may be lacking in some good features that the branded programs have.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if you're using the Mac OS X install the fonts (.ttf, .otf) here:

/Library/Fonts

Glad to help!

Edit: And I've just found this useful info too (I've copied and pasted for your convenience):

How to install a font under Mac OS

Mac OS X recognizes TrueType and OpenType fonts (.ttf and .otf) but not the PC bitmap fonts (.fon).
Files are compressed, you may need an utility like Stuffit Expander.

Under Mac OS X :
Put the files into /Library/Fonts (for all users),
or into /Users/Your_username/Library/Fonts (for you only).
If your OS includes the Font Book, you can as well double-click on a font file, then a preview pops with an "Install font" button.

Under Mac OS 9 or less :
The old Mac fonts are not supported anymore at dafont. First, you have to convert the font files (.ttf or .otf) you have downloaded.
Then drag the fonts suitcases into the System folder. The system will propose you to add them to the Fonts folder.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Then I'll look at the first two first. Thanks for tracking down all the information. (I recently bought a new computer, so it is OSX.)

 

[scalem X]

Just a few ideas for people who are coming up with their own languages/alphabets---

I actually did 'invent' a few languages for my book, but ended up using a couple of languages that I am familiar with, and doing a consonant or vowel shift within the language--that way the words aren't totally familar to anyone who might know the languages (okay, I'll "fess" up--I used french and japanese), but they follow a pattern. I guess it wouldn't be too hard for a speaker of those languages to go back and reconstruct.

Some ideas for dealing with alphabets---How about looking a little at some of the "alternative" writing forms out there, and adapting them to make them your own? I don't have a specific site, but if you google "Egyptian Hieroglyphics", you can do a little research into pictographs/hieroglyphics. I think it is important to remember that you don't necessarily need to think of your language as using an alphabet/phoneme system like english and many of the indo-european languages employ. Japanese uses characters (kanji) to represent sounds, groups of sounds, and meanings, but they also have a couple of syllabaries(sp?) to represent phonemes (katakana and hiragana). A little research can go a long way in finding something concrete from "reality" that you can take and tweak enough to make it your own "fantasy". I'm jumping down off of my soapbox. Hope this might help someone.

Yeah I too have the feeling that basing your language on an english syllable system in fact limits your language. You might start of with a phoneme-database, rather than just have an addapted alphabet.

Just don't base your language upon Turkish or Sanskrit (Kusumatalagarbhavy?h?la?k?ralokadh?tu anyone? ).

 

[Erin99]

A good idea, also, is to see how varied the different languages are in terms of alphabet. In some alphabets they have softer palatal sounds as letters, in others they're harsher, and in a few languages they have full glottal stops (such as Arabic) when pronouncing a letter or word. So yes, don't necessarily base your language on English -- be inventive!

 

[Wiglaf]

Took you long enough to find Zompist and Langmaker. Two excelent conlang sites. I played arround for a while, but you can get lost with all the options.

For a story, I would stick to English phonemes and use phoenetic English for spelling. That way it is pronounceable and sounds like its spelled. People won't read Seleborn instead of Keleborn. Besides, if it has a non-Roman alphabet, wouldn't it make sense to use phoentic English when transliterating it into the Roman alphabet?

I'd also stick to names and places; otherwise I would play for years and never write anything.

I like simple; its easier to finish. Of course my goal is to actually write something, not necessarily to make money at it. You might care more what readers want.