Terry Goodkind

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nightsavior

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Sexaul frustration is a hard mark to live with for any man but I personally haven't been driven crazy by it yet. lol. There is alot of rape,bdsm,and such. Yet Terry "has" a wife so unless he is being an ass to her he should be getting "something" in the nookie category. I don't mind erotica in books but man, Goodkind is brutal with it. He loves combinations of rape followed by murder or the breaking of arms while the rape is happening. I know these things happen in our world but no writer has to focus on it so doggedly.

I understand Terry's adversions to christanity. I'm an agnostic mixed with just a bit of buddhist and pagan beliefs so I've been in awful situations in which I was persecuted for not being the norm. Then again I had to rationalize and stop myself from judging a whole group just because a few people in that group were jerks. Terry doesn't seem to be capable of that thought process. Because I get the crude beat out of me by a jewish doctor does that make all jewish doctors evil? Of course not. Goodkind should be careful. He's skating close to being another Hitler and even more intolerant of people then the church he slanders.
 

nightsavior

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Agnostic is the belief in a greater power. It is also admitting while you believe in that higher force you don't fully understand it. I take things from Buddhism due to my martial arts training. The belief in discipline,bettering myself,and finding a balance of improving both mind and body. There are interesting virtues within paganism including but no limited to wanting to coexist with nature and paying homage to certain spirits that effect luck,karma,or the elements. Buddhism has many deities as well though many people think there is merely one Buddha. My eccentric Buddhism is more of a worship of Arya Tara, a goddess of compassion and wisdom.

Now if I said I was an "atheist" that believed in a higher spiritual power I can understand "how" that very well might conflict with my statement. Agnosticism can actually include colors of other beliefs and since I'm somewhat buddhist in outlook and somewhat pagan I can't really just say I am one or the other. It would be derogatory and false.

Not that this has anything to do with the main topic. Oops! Hopefully fire won't rain on me for my side tracking a bit. lol.
 

Rane Longfox

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I thought being agnostic was just not knowing what to decide, you deciding nothing... my bad:D
 

nightsavior

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You could be right Fox. It's not like I personally have never misinterpreted words before. Is there actually a word for embracing two faith forms that can also exist in harmony? Many proably think my way of looking at things is a bit off but it does work for me. :D
 

the_faery_queen

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having a wife doesn't stop a man being misognistic. my uncle has one and is. and i personalyl think goodkind abuses women in his books because he likes it, because he doesn't like them.

and personally, i don't think fantasy literature is the place for his preachings. he wants us to see his objective agenda whatever, fantasy isn't the place, or at least, ot like this! take the handmaiden's tale, i've not read it, but it isn't something that i can see al ot of kids reading and enjoying. and if they did, at least they're not being exposed to stuff like all the rape, that i dont' think they should be exposed to (not young kids/young teens) that book has a moral agenda, that boko is showing what the world could be like if fundies ruled. it has a purpose. if goodkind has a purpose with his stuff he needed to write a better book! one that is clearly set out that way, not one that is shrouded in dragons and magic, that will appeal to kids, while having unrealistic rape dripping from every page, and sadism peeking through everywhere, while claiming its about some higher moral message or something. just doesn't wash for me. there are ways to write unpleasant things that make a reader see why they're unpleasant. to me all i got from reading goodkind was that HE was unpleasant. that he was full of himself and sadistic, with no actual characterisation ability. if you want to teach someone soemthing, or preach, or have amessage, you have to make it appealing, you have to make it relatable, and it has to reach people. i found his work so bad, his characters so unappealing, the rape so over the top and graphic, that any message he had was lost under how unpleasant i found the whole experience of reading. and not for the reasons he may have wanted me to feel that! :)
 

nightsavior

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Well that was my same rant faery queen. Write fantasy, but don't use it to subtlely brainwash people into beleving something. Is what Terry doing any better then a religous avengalist? No it's not so he really has no right to slam religion when he's using the same tactiics.

At times in my writing I think I wanted to get things across. For example a long while ago I had a friend that was raped so all my story was about is getting revenge on rapists. It read like a Sin city comic book by Frank Miller only with a supernatural twist. However that is a very simple ideal and I wasn't trying to premote objectivism or free anarchy it was just what I felt at the time.

I think the problem is Terry isn't writing what he feels. Everything goes to this cause of his and for it he makes things "extrreme" in his books to drive his point home with a sledge hammer. I don't mind sex in books,even brutality but it is refreshing to have breaks between those things. Terry's world splats it on every page and worse tries to make others believe anyone who views the world differently from him would applaud these things. I know he wants to come off as realistic yet everything of his is unrealistic.

They are definetly NOT for children. I don't have problems with racy adult fiction or adult fantasy but at least have a warning somewhere. In a recent interview Terry was happy a 14 year old was reading his books. I don't know how to weigh that when he said somewhere else his books ARE NOT for children but sophisticated adults.
 
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the_faery_queen

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totally. i think books should have warnings, films do. and i personally think that books can be more traumatic than a film. i read a horror once and it STILL lingers with me today, more so than any horror i've ever seen (he cut his tongue out, forced to by a demon dead child) never got the image out of my head, it's so much more graphic and demanding, with a film you can look away, you ca't really with a book.

i write abotu things that are important to me in my books. my main kingdom is atheist, as i am. there women have equal rights (true ones) they can be bodyguards, they can be queen, they can choose to have kids, control their own fertility, and so on. even poor kids are educated (with travelling tutors) because there are things that are important to me. even so, the female bodyguard has times when she expresses her/my feminist views, that she hates men fighting over her, being seen as property. but it happens ONCE! just once. i also have another kingdom that is fairly religious, as a sort of contrast, and they believe in burning mages, they hate magic, the way that some fundies can be about pagans (not burning, but pretty aggressive with their hatred) or towards gays and so on. but i dont' preach it. there's not big, this is evil, to make them appear like an evil kingdom. they're not evil, they're just different. they dont' like these things, they do horrible things to people with magic, but i don't potray them as ugly barbarians, my hero meets some, they're normal people. they just have different beliefs. i try not to preach, i try bnot to offend people, because i dont' think fantasy is the right genre for my preachings about acceptance and feminism :)

readers aren't stupid. they don't need to be preached to. half the problem with mr goodkind, it hink, is he is SO full of himself he must think we're all idiots beacuse he thinks he has to force his stuff home. an interview with him had him saying people dislike him because they don't like what is good. that his work is some huge moral guide for us and those who object don't like it because of that. he doesn't get that some dislike it for so many other reasons, and that he doesn't need to write a big moral guide! a fantasy book with his beliefs coming through subtly will win far more support, than shoving it at us, cos even people who believe his way of thinking are going to get put off being preached at. he would have done so much better if he had created people we could care about, a world that resembled ours even slightly, and had written his book then, with a little preaching every now and then. to have nothing but a horrible world with hjorrible people makes it hard to read, let alone with his preachings on top :)

guess we agree on most things :)
 

nightsavior

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Well no matter what some of "us" is going to come through what we write. I don't see that as bad that's just how it is. Terry though he is trying to push it...as in a crusade of not just what he believes but Ayn Rand believes. It is funny he thinks he is original. Ayn Rand was original he is just taking her work and adding dragons and wizards then mixing it with symbolism of current events. I don't mind "when" writers do this but he is doing it while claiming to be 100% unique. The man needs to come down from his pedestal. Also if he admires a woman author why is he so harsh towards women in his books? To me that defies common sense. I also hate how Kahlan is so strong and can in theory bring down any man alive yet she acts so whiney,dramatic,and foolish. Alittle of that is ok, none of us are perfect. But she is always like that and seems to be the submissive type that would clean Richard's feet on her knees. I don't exactly think that is the best role model for young girls because Kahlan sends out warped mixed signals.

I admit as a man my writing and art does suffer cliches. I tend to like to draw women in almost nothing and men in armor with bloody swords. But this is just fantasy my fantasy and I'd never ask people to see my work as a philosphy to guide their lives.
 

the_faery_queen

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i think he, as many people have, have confused the idea of physical strenth with actual strength. a lot of people argue that jordan's women are strong, they're not. they have magic that givs them an edge, and the same with kahlan, she has magic to give her an edge, but she isn't actually a strong person because she doesn't stop whining about richard! and the jordan's women aren't strong, they're patronising :)

goodkind is just funny fullstop. he thinks he isn't writing fantasy. he is. he thinks its some higher code. it isn't. he thinks that people dislike him beacuse they don't like what is 'good.' they don't. they dislike him ebcause they don't like what is bad and conceited and rubbish! :) egos are a TERRIBLE thing. you can't argue with them, you can't bring them down, because no matter what happens, they will just think the problem is with YOU not with them.

his wife needs to knock some sense into him. i really dunno how ANYONE could be with a man like that. the things he writes about would make me feel uncomfortable just being near him.
 

nightsavior

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Well some women (not all by any means) see a bread-winner and go for him. His wife could be a trophy or pretty trinket hanging on his arm just because he "is" Terry Goodkind and "he is" making alot of money. That is a guess of course. I don't know the woman. She could see a nicer side of the man we don't. Anything is possible.

Honestly I might still be fool enough to enjoy the books but as I said I ran into some nasty o'ist with egos just as bloated as Goodkind. They have a very selfish attitude about things. They see the handicapped or disabled as thieves in the night taking from their tax money. The O'ist philosphy is everyone should of course help themselves survive. It's ALL about self preservation with no room for generosity. I really believe Rand didn't mean to come off this way. I think she was more along the lines we should have self interest and take care of ourselves not that we should be selfish. Then again one of her direct quotes is "selfishness is a virtue."

Likewise I feel uncomfortable with anything by Goodkind. It's sad his books got me into reading again after a long stint of "not reading" but after seeing how alot of Objectivists see things I drew really nasty parellels in the books and came to the conclusion Richard expects everyone to sacrifice themselves for his cause and that any act of kindness or heroism done by characters is done for selfish means. I will give Good-kind this. He was good at honey coating the poison and for awhile I really did love some of his characters before learning about how self absorbed and narcisstic they were.

Further more I can't believe Sam Raimi is thinking about a sword of truth series. From Raimi's works he seemed to be about portraying reluctant heroes that are still caring and honest though they can seem harsh or abrasive (Ash from evil dead comes to mind). Or heroes that do good just because it is right (Spider man ,Xena,or Hercules.) Guess it would be a good way to make a buck though. Alot of people still swear by sot I'm just no longer one of them.
 

the_faery_queen

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perhaps he only read teh first book, and doesn't know how they go? or, perhaps, it's the money issue. eragon, now this. two of the series i dislike the most, being made into films, or possibly. it makes me sad. there are SO many more deserving books out there, fantasy as well as nonfantasy, and no, it comes down to cash and popularity again. not talent, not imagination.
i would never read anything by goodkind again. a part of me wants to become rich and famous and meet him and tell him what i think of him. but i know he won't care. he doesn't respect women, according to one review thing i read, where he basically told a woman no wonder she couldn't understand his work, being female. and anything i say he will dismiss. and he'll dismiss anything a man says as the man not getting what is good and right etc.

i've met some people who think handicapped people are just taking money. and some are. it's true. (don't want to start a huge argument with anyone, but there are always going to be greedy lazy people who are like that) but most aren't. most want to work, and can't. my mum is one of them (she had a stroke, she's ok but can't work) i think selfishness is important, to some extent. but if we were ALL out for ourselves the world would be the one that goodkind has written about. and not because the evil jalanga guy has won, but because the world is full of people who take what they want, rape and kill for what they want, and dont' care less about those weaker than themselves. even animals in packs have a little compassion towards weaker animals. when my mum's cat larvie was 19, and old and couldn't do things, the other two cats, who were far younger, and not related to her, helped her out. licked her and things. they helped her out, but in a goodkind world, she'd have been left to starve.

sometimes i wish people like that had their own world. then they could see what it was really like when people only care about themselves.
 

nightsavior

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Well I too would never suggest people be fully altruistic Faery Queen. If we just constantly sacrificed ourselves for others it would be self destructive. Then again if we constantly sacrifice others for ourselves that isn't any better. I know there are people that take advantage of welfare and disability. However there are good people these programs help. To generalize "all" the needy or handicapped as burdens or free loaders thus is a narrow minded judgement.

That is the defeat of most o'ist or Goodkind's works. Everything is in absolutes. There are no inbetweens or grey areas. Yet in real life most things are shades of grey, not strictly black or white.

Also Terry is an Isolationist. Every "about the author clause" says he lives in a log cabin he built in the middle of nowhere. (Arizona desert I think though he was originally from Texas.) If he lives in the middle of nowhere it is easy to believe as he does. Few will try taking what he has and likewise he doesn't have to give to other people or reason with them. Until he finds himself in a compromising situation in which either he has to rely on the generosity of others or encounters a situation in which self sacrifice is more beneficial overall then sacrificing others he's not going to change.
 
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the_faery_queen

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totally. greys are what makes the world, not black and white. nothing is black and white. even hitler had his grey areas, im sure. and perhaps even a few good areas as well that we didn't know about. but goodkind's world is all black and white, nothing else. evil is evil, and in my mind, so is the good! the only difference is the 'good' doesn't agree with the evil. i just see it as two selfish groups of children fighting each other over some fancy toy. neither side are admirable and neither side have any grey areas. everything is actually rather ridiculous, how one dimenstional everything is.
 

nightsavior

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I think with the order he attempted showing the negative side of objectivism to his benefit. As in soldiers that fell in battle would be left behind simply because they couldn't fight anymore thus had no purpose. Most radical objectivists feel that way. Then again that was the same book Richard got self rigteous and like Good-kind ranted ALOT about philosphy and such. If Terry would have just stayed silent until after sot he would have retained more fans I think. Maybe he does think he is doing a just cause but if it is to matter the man needs to embrace a bit of humility. He needs to accept there can be two good men or good women that have different views thus disagree though both opposing parties have virtues and morality. In Terry's mind I must be vile merely for questioning him. He needs to broaden his horizons. There is more out there then Ayn Rand though to her benefit she was a thought provoking novelist.
 

the_faery_queen

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well you're not alone in being vile in terry's eyes im sure! you for disliking his weird morality, me for being a woman who dares to dislike the way he treats his women. i think i rather be hated by a man like that, then considered his friend. he really is a bit warped!

im hoping/praying, that he never gets another series off the ground again. i don't value him as a writer in the slightest, adn even if he got all his preaching out in this series (and i doubt it) i just think NOT having another series out would bring him down to earth a little as a human, and he needs that a bit! :)
 

nightsavior

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Yeah I don't know why he is harsh on women either Faery Queen. Either you got powder kegs like Kahlan that are near untouchable and almost any man that even gives them an odd look are destroyed...or you have women raped,tortured,and killed that hardly ever find a way out of their predicament through wits or battle skills. So what we have are immature women wielding the power of goddesses that can punish men how they see fit or you have every other woman that gets killed or intiated into a strange bdsm sex cult such as the Mord sith or sisters of the dark. Don't get me wrong I don't object to red leather and hot seductive women but it's just in Terry's books ALL women are sex goddesses,victims,or ugly and cruel dykes in power such as queen Milena. There are no other variations I can really see besides maybe the sisters of the light that are very pious and self sacrificing but as Goodkind soon reveals there is corruption in their order too! Addie was nice. She reminded me of a strong vodoun priestess that seemed wise and no nonsense. Besides Denna she might have been the only woman with alittle steel in her heart. Of course in Denna's case she ends up "gladly" letting Richard kill her so he can discover the sword of truth's "ultimate" power of forgiveness and escape the people's palace. (rolls eyes) Yeah Richard is sooo much better then a crusader during the dark ages killing moorish people. Oh wait,he isn't.
 

the_faery_queen

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well to me, that's how he sees women in the real world. either as chaste, nice girls to be protected and only have sex in marriage, as khalan is. or they're bad girls who get raped in punishment and have sex with monsters, or they're messed up and become gay! i mean, what sort of message is that to give to people! that good girls who are threatened with rape, don't care and don't pay it any attention, as kahlan never does. if you're a bad girl, a bully, you'll be raped, as though sex is a punishment for being a bit of a cow, despite the fact that many men in his book do far worse (richard does!) and doesn't suffer half as much as those girls in the school did. and if you're messed up, as those mord sith were, to turn them into mord sith, you then become gay! while it's realistic that these women would turn away from men, after men hurt them and made them kill their own family members, it just seems that the oNLY gay women in his books are women who wear leather, like to hurt other peopel and were messed up to become that way. he seems to be saying there is something wrong with being gay and only messed up women become that way. and girls, if you're a mean bully, kama will rape you because sex is punishment for it. which is rubbish as well! good girls get raped as well :( rape is about power, it has nothing to do with behaviour.

urgh. he has no idea, i think. he did no research and just has an awful opinion of women and gays. yet people like him!
 

nightsavior

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I find it redundant every bad guy has rape as a number 1 on the do list. For awhile my villians were like that because I was angry at rape due to the incident with my friend. However then I realized not every villian would enjoy rape just because they're criminals. Everyone has a unique psychological profile. You can have serial killers that love children or bank robbers that hate killing. The bad guys aren't always "bad" in every way. Sling blade as a movie was a good example of this. He could be seen as a killer but everyone he killed was despicable,beat women,or molested children.

In Goodkind's world though rape is a metaphor for punishing girls for being weak of for being bad and un-kahlan like. I don't even want to go into how he feel about homosexauls. (shudders)

Even in the description of Rachel vs. Violet he describes Violet looks like a dog (because she's a mean brat) but Rachel has a hidden beauty (because also she is obivously the good little girl). By his philosphy everyone who is evil has to be average,plain,or unattractive (exceptions being people like Darken Rahl) whereas the good guys always look like they stepped out from the screening of a holly-wood movie.(Name one good guy or good girl he describes as unattractive.)
 

jenna

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I'm just hazarding a guess here, but I reckon it's a load of crap that he lives in a log cabin. When I heard him speak, he made a big fuss about telling us all that he has a Ferrari. Like we care. But anyway, I can't really see him driving home in his Ferrari to sleep in a log cabin...
 
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