alternatives to books

...and if the book's good enough you really shouldn't be aware of smell or feels anyway.

On that one, I'm going to have to disagree entirely with you, Steve. For me, a book is a total sensual experience (with the sole exception of taste). And, as I have a love of so many older books (often ones that have been out of print for decades, in some cases well over a century) or have only been published in severely truncated form for the past several decades, the musty smell of the books, the feel of the bindings, and the paper, the sound of the different kinds of paper, the texture of it, the way it reflects the light, the way the ink appears on the page, the form of the text blocks... it all enters in on some level, and adds to or detracts from the experience, depending. A book is considerably more than just what is printed inside it, though that is a very important part. A good book is a work of art in itself, and appeals on many different levels; even if it has no value to a collector (many of my favorites don't, and quite a few of my very old books don't, including my 1796 printing of Johnson's Rambler) ... but all of these things (and many more I've not named) add to the enjoyment of the book, and enrich the experience on both a conscious and unconscious level. E-books and such, while great for many things, simply will never have those added dimensions to them. They are wonderful for information, but for the experience of the book ... they can't hold a candle.

Oh, and a P.S.: Much of the above also applies to paperbacks. Good, attractive paperbacks aren't that plentiful anymore, as too many tend to look alike. But a lot of the older paperbacks had an individuality to them, and differing formats, typefaces, etc... plus, for those of us who love the must of old books, old paperbacks have a wonderful magic all their own (for example, I've got a 1940s Avon printing of A. Merritt's Creep, Shadow that you'd have to club, stab, and drown me to get out of me). So it's not just the hardbacks that have these things, it's printed books, when done well. And it's also, frankly, individual taste. If all you're after is the information, it won't matter. If, as I say above, it's the experience ... that's another thing.
 
When I studied architecture, I had two drawing instructors that used to insist we use wooden pencils. Their regular mantra was, "Feel the warmth of the wood!" However, being that I had been drawing with mechanical pencils for years previous, I was fortunately able to resist their programming and work with the tools I preferred.

When I hear everyone talking about the "sensual" experience of reading, I just shrug. To me, the story is all... and when I'm reading a good story, I'm not thinking about what I'm reading it from. (If I am thinking about anything subconsciously-- and how would I know, if it's subconscious-- maybe it's about the 30 or so books I have in my hand at that moment, many of which are not available in print any more, that I don't have to look for a light source, or that turning the page by pressing a button is easy.)

The bookstore experience is no fun for me anymore. In my local franchisemart bookstore, the SFF covers are squeezed so tightly together, you need a shoehorn to extricate them, making easy cover examination a pain. And to me, most SFF covers are looking more generic and less individually interesting anyway. If I don't get a prior recommendation for a book (usually online from a trusted source), I'll probably never see it or find it.

By the way, J.D... have you ever tasted a good spine? With a little basil, dill, and oregano, it's divine...
 
If all you're after is the information, it won't matter. If, as I say above, it's the experience ... that's another thing.

Does that mean that if you aren't in your favorite chair, with your feet up, your pipe on one arm, your chianti on the other, and the dog sleeping restfully at your feet, that you can't enjoy the simple pleasure of reading a good book?

If it's a good book, who needs props? Not me. I can enjoy reading wherever I am, at any time of day, without props. If I needed a "perfect environment" to read... in this day and age... I'd never get the chance to look at a book again...
 
Rather than kick this back and forth another hundred times, let's dig to the middle. For me, at least, this is not a Black and White issue. There are no absolutes. This is a technicolor issue. If you read my location (which is supposed to be extra info but never got fixed) you will see that I really enjoy books. I have a lot of them. I have been drawn instictively toward having a lot of them since I was a child (we're going back over 40 years). I also work with technology and have been drawn to it for as long as I could read. I acquired a PDA for business reasons (I deal with a lot of people and need to keep track of a lot of events). I found that with an expansion card it would hold a virtual library of books along with all my business stuff and a music library of MP3s. There are times when I'm at work and I have to wait for something to happen or I'm there with nothing to do at the moment and I discovered that I could read relatively comfotably with the PDA. My first choice will always be at hme in my recliner with a book, a cigar and a my faithful Toy Fox Terrier on my lap for protection (She barks aggresively at a thunderstorm, so if she willing to take on nature....) My situations change so I need to adapt to my situation. Saying I can only read one way limits my enjoyment of life. I spend a lot of hours at work and sometimes I may be waiting for several hours for someone else to finish their job so that I can test out the work I directed. I trying to limit my boredom. When I am working, I try to be interested and involved. When I'm not I try to have something to do. Reading, as opposed to watching a movie or some yet to be invented medium where the story is injected into your brain, requires imagination and the famous "suspension of disbelief". Your vision of each character will be different from mine (see numerous threads regarding how Elijah Wood killed the Frodo character or Hugh Jackman would or would nt make a good Roland the gunfighter). That is the beauty of reading. Not being able to get past your current environment is an inability or a disadvantage, not something to be proud of. Some people can read in a crowd, I can't. That's my disability. It's not something I'm proud of. It's something I deal with. If I'm in a crowd, my time is probably being wasted. Bottom line, the authors wrote the words. They may have written in long hand with a fountain pen or a number 2 pencil. They didn't print it in a nice book or print it in an ebook format necessarily. They wrote the words. The words make us imagine the backdrop and see the characters.
I think I've probably rambled a little too much. I think there's a point or two in there.
 
Books are now passe. I spend pleasant evenings reading the labels on my clothes. I know much of polyester.
 
I've tried 'reading' a book on my laptop and also 'listened' to a favourite book on tape.

Sorry but it just wasn't the same! The one on tape was a series of stories I had read numerous times, which always made me laugh or cry in certain paragraphs. This didn't happen with the taped story and I found that I lost interest very easily, as opposed to curling up on the sofa and getting caught up in the written words of a real book.
 
I don't think you can beat books. For it has to fit in my pocket and I don't have to worry about dropping it in the bath. Only a book can do fulfill this criteria.

With taped stories you've got the readers imagination and interpretation cutting in on your own and I find that infuriating.
 
The bookstore experience is no fun for me anymore. In my local franchisemart bookstore, the SFF covers are squeezed so tightly together, you need a shoehorn to extricate them, making easy cover examination a pain. And to me, most SFF covers are looking more generic and less individually interesting anyway. If I don't get a prior recommendation for a book (usually online from a trusted source), I'll probably never see it or find it.

It's not just the experience of browsing in a bookshop, though I certainly enjoy that, it's also how I discover new books and new authors. Being able to flip through it and read a bit in it before deciding also helps. Of course, the bookshops I go to don't squeeze the books so tightly together.

A list of titles doesn't give me that and too many reccomendations are just a title and an author without anything about what it's about and why the person recommending it thinks it's good.

Yeah - if I had a PDA, I could see myself going for some titles, I know in advance I want, as e-books, but it can't replace paperbooks entirely. I'm also not busy enough to justify having a PDA.

The other day, I looked at the popular science section of a bookshop with my boyfriends. We looked at a number of books we thought looked interesting, discarded some for seeming too dificult to understand, picked one and I decided to think about another one a bit more. How do you get that with e-books?

The one I haven't decided on had some nice, big illustrations to help explain some of the more complicated things.
I can't imagine how that would work on a PDA.

Maybe if it to a higher degree would be possible to look thorugh books online, like the "Search inside" option they have for some books at Amazon or something, then I could imagine it would help.
 
The other day, I looked at the popular science section of a bookshop with my boyfriends. We looked at a number of books we thought looked interesting, discarded some for seeming too dificult to understand, picked one and I decided to think about another one a bit more. How do you get that with e-books?

The one I haven't decided on had some nice, big illustrations to help explain some of the more complicated things.
I can't imagine how that would work on a PDA.

Maybe if it to a higher degree would be possible to look thorugh books online, like the "Search inside" option they have for some books at Amazon or something, then I could imagine it would help.

That's why many e-book sellers have online excerpts, often of 1-2 chapters, free to read and decide if the book's for you. Based on comments (including comments on my book site), 1-2 chapter excerpts are usually more than enough to get people to decide whther or not they want to read a book.

If you tend to read books that require large illustrations, you can use a dedicated e-book reader (like Sony's new reader), which has a large screen good for illustrations. PDAs are better for straight text without detailed illustrations, though they display color covers nicely.

I don't think you can beat books. For it has to fit in my pocket and I don't have to worry about dropping it in the bath.

I shower.
 
That's why many e-book sellers have online excerpts, often of 1-2 chapters, free to read and decide if the book's for you. Based on comments (including comments on my book site), 1-2 chapter excerpts are usually more than enough to get people to decide whther or not they want to read a book.

If you tend to read books that require large illustrations, you can use a dedicated e-book reader (like Sony's new reader), which has a large screen good for illustrations. PDAs are better for straight text without detailed illustrations, though they display color covers nicely.

In that case it might be an idea. I'll go and ask in a Sony store tomorrow and find out more about this dedicated e-book reader. A small PDA-screen is usually too straining for my eyes in the long run, but I imagine this reader might also solve that.

I agree that one or two chapters is more than enough to decide on a book.
 
At 46, I'm hardly a spring chicken. Yet I read e-books on a handheld computer I carry with me everywhere. (Okay, I still get amazed when I see people reading on a smartphone screen!) Trick is, if you want to adapt, you can. And besides, as we move on, the kids who grow up with this stuff won't think twice about it. They won't have to "adapt," they'll already be there. That's what makes e-books inevitable.
as chickens go, you're quite a lot springier than me; and to demonstrate that I'm not a total luddite, after answering the thread I went over to Baens bar for a quick glance on how they were getting on with their "E-ink" version. It's not going to be cheap, but the unilluminated, reflected light system should simulate the "book experience" closer than LCD or LED technology. Only black and white, with a very limited selection of greys, so no garish covers and coloured illustrations; and nowhere to make notes in the margins (why didn't they think of that?) Also, for a size equivalent to an average paperback, you get a smaller page size
I'm trying right now to figure out the equivalent of a "signed" e-book that can be done at bookstores (or computer stores, as the medium may be) or other public venues.
One of the casualties of the electronic revolution is likely to be the traditional book shop. Not that they couldn't market them (fixed readers in the shops, books made available on standard chips that the shop can program, thus eliminating the "copy" phenomenon, intelligent, knowledgeable assistants who help you search particular works, choice between "traditional forrmat" and cyberbook) but it's not going to happen. The small independant bookshop is still reeling from the internet ordering wave; an extra technology punch, particularly considering the number of people who'll prefer to save some money by cutting out the middleman, and very few of them will survive.
If we still have electronics, we can do conversions to the latest formats. And that'll be a lot easier than scanning and copying paper books...
You might (just) be right for text files, but even there it's not totally safe. Other data though; I have audio sample data for which no-one ever wrote a translation program, and just try recuperating the data off a Sony F1 if you don’t own the machine. We’re talking about ten years, here, and the data industry wasn’t evolving anything like so fast. Proprietary coding system = no stimulus to support older standards. While ASCII files will go on being available. The moment an anti-copy system is cracked it becomes uninteresting, so any files encoded with it stay readable as long as your latest software contains the key, after which you have to go to a specialist; and the “anti-copy“ itself has prevented you from converting to a more recent standard (besides the effort of re-backing up your emtire library every time the standards are improved. Compression algorithms, the same problem. A shellac disc recorded in the twenties? I can still play it. An analog magnetic tape recorded in the fifties? No problem. A “ProDigi“ tape recorded in the nineties? Forget it.
The computer industry (not the electronics industry) is so into progress and improvements (don’t get me wrong, they are improvements, not merely “change for the sake of change“ as one might expect in, say, the clothing industry) that a standard can be conceived, born, commercialised, raised to maturity, die and be forgotten in the lifetime of a cat (and soon, one suspects, that of a guinea pig) The law here that states “anything you sell, you have to guarantee service is available for ten years after date of sale“ has become a joke ; maintain a computer that’s eight years old ? You’re sure it’s not an abacus? What guarantee, then do we have for the lives of our books?

And while I’m ranting (hey, how did that come about ? We agree on most of this) a pet peeve (answering another correspondent on the thread) ; embossed covers (and covers with clever clever cutouts, or half surfaces). Not only do they mean you can cram fewer books into your shelves, they were at the origin of a painfully embarassing incident in a bookshop where I, of less than average height, was attempting to look at a David Brin novel on the top shelf, and, since all the embossed covers locked together, succeeded in binging the entire shelf-full of books down on my eagerly upturned face (slight exaggeration – I’m sure there were some that stayed). I was morally obliged to buy a book I didn’t want because my nose had bled onto it (note that it wasn’t the shop that insisted; in fact, they gave me a major discount for its condition; still, I wouldn’t reccomend this as a technique for getting books cheap.

All of which has very little to do with potential replacements for the written word- I wonder if, when the codex was released there were those who were determinedly scroll “Oh, but you can just let your eye drift up the text to see what’s past, with these new fangled ‘pages’ you keep having to turn them over, you lose all continuity“
 
When I studied architecture, I had two drawing instructors that used to insist we use wooden pencils. Their regular mantra was, "Feel the warmth of the wood!" However, being that I had been drawing with mechanical pencils for years previous, I was fortunately able to resist their programming and work with the tools I preferred.

When I hear everyone talking about the "sensual" experience of reading, I just shrug. To me, the story is all... and when I'm reading a good story, I'm not thinking about what I'm reading it from....

By the way, J.D... have you ever tasted a good spine? With a little basil, dill, and oregano, it's divine...

*sigh* Look ... I did not say this was for everyone. I simply disagreed with Steve's comment that the words are all that there is to the experience; and for quite a few people, that is very much the case. If you've never felt it, you've never felt it. If you have, you know what I'm talking about. As far as the smell of a book ... well, when you first open the thing, before you become absorbed in the text itself, each book has an odor of its own, and that odor can be freighted with memories of your own, or it can call up imaginative associations of the history of the book, of the people who have owned it through the ages, etc. ... all of which can act as a marvelous prelude to the experience of the stories (or essays, or what-have-you) which you will soon be reading ... very much like the bouquet on a fine wine can get prepare the palate for a superb vintage. The weight, the texture, the browning or yellowing of the pages ... all of that can contribute to the experience. And when reading it, the manner of type (for example, modern, rather angular typefaces as opposed to older, more rounded, or even gothic typeface, use of the "long s", etc., adds to the flavour of the book, and can itself spur the imagination to take me places, that the book speaks of, as well. When I read, I experience what I read, to a great degree, the way one does when one recalls a memory ... I may not feel it as intensely (as an example, when Sophie gets her foot caught between the rocks in Wyndham's "The Chrysalids", I'm not going to have the same level of pain she is having with that sprained ankle, but I may well suffer a sympathetic twinge or two), but I do experience something of that. If I read Dr. Johnson's Rambler in that 1796 edition, with the "long s" and the marbled endpapers and that slowly browning paper, I get a feeling of going back through time and being an unseen observer listening to the Good Doctor expressing his thoughts ... it can even aid, if one has some knowledge of the differences in speech patterns, to "hear", in the mind, the differences in pronunciation and accent of the time. Smell, especially, is one of our keenest senses, and ties to our memory intensely, calling up memories and images long-forgotten ... and books can trigger that. Reading things on electronic media simply cannot.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with them, and they are wonderful for having the information in a small, compact space, portable and useful, and for those who enjoy them, more power to you. But for me, they can never replace the experience I receive when I read one of these books that are steeped in history, and have been handed from one person to another for sometimes centuries. I have, for instance, an edition of Julian Hawthorne's "Lock and Key Library", the 10-volume set that he put together, published in 1909. Not only do I enjoy the stories there, but I also have the added association that this is the very edition, the very printing, which H. P. Lovecraft used when doing research for his essay Supernatural Horror in Literature. Again, that sort of thing is simply something I could never have from any of these on electronic media. Some of the books I have bear inscriptions from a quill pen ... some have marginal notes by previous readers, including a handful by writers who have owned the books, and these can often give me new ways of looking at what I'm reading that I may not have thought of myself, thus adding a new dimension to my experience.

There are simply so many, many things that a print book has that electronic versions simply don't, and likely never will. That is not to put them down. That is simply to say that it really is quite valid to say that there are just some aspects to having the books that the other can never replace, and those are indeed a part of the reading experience as well.

Oh, and as for your comments about a spine ... "a good wine needs no bush".
 
I'll concede that, on somewhere between a conscious on subliminal level, most people are aware of the "character" of the book (the feels and smells and whatnot), but if you never got into the content, you'd be a collector rather than or also a reader. Sometimes, I'm merely a collector. I have time to order or shop for books and not the time to read them, but read them I will or die trying. (probably the later). And on another note:

Don’t assume that a microprocessor based device can’t display character.
Someday they may even be able to replicate the smell or at least convince your brain that you're smelling it. Remember the genre we deal with here, nothing is impossible (at, least not if you have enough imagination.)
 
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I'll concede that, on somewhere between a conscious on subliminal level, most people are aware of the "character" of the book (the feels and smells and whatnot), but if you never got into the content, you'd be a collector rather than or also a reader. Sometimes, I'm merely a collector. I have time to order or shop for books and not the time to read them, but read them I will or die trying. (probably the later). And on another note:

Don’t assume that a microprocessor based device can’t display character.
Someday they may even be able to replicate the smell or at least convince your brain that you're smelling it. Remember the genre we deal with here, nothing is impossible (at, least not if you have enough imagination.)

Agreed. If you don't get into the book, then you're a collector rather than a reader. And each has their joys with books; and sometimes those of a reader combine more than a little of each. (And on the "read, or die trying" ... I'm with you there. Hoo, boy, am I with you there!:rolleyes: )

No, it's not impossible that they will display character, though it's unlikely to happen in my lifetime, and to be rather expensive as they do. But, frankly, I don't see the point. By the time that they develop that far, we'll likely have a generation that has grown up mainly on "books" on electronic media, and there'll not be much of a market for it, I'd wager. Certainly not enough to pay for the R&D, let alone the cost of production. But, as said, it's all the other aspects, as well, including the heft of the volume in one's hand... it's just an entire complex of imponderables that go into the experience and, no, I don't see that ever being the case with something where one of the main purposes is to make the thing compact and easily transportable, etc. It would rather defeat the purpose (except for the idea you posit of an implant or some other method of fooling the brain... but then you get into an entirely different can of worms with technical problems/glitches, etc., that make that option a little less attractive... again, something you don't have with the printed book proper).

And again, I reiterate: I've no problem with these things for those who get what they want out of them. I see plenty of advantages to them, and may even use them for certain things at some time. But my preference will always be for the printed book. And, no matter how advanced (at least, until we get to the point of Clarke's "indistinguishable from magic") ... there will always be things that one medium has that the other simply won't. It's inherent in their nature. If nothing else, the fact that one deals with electronic impulses will always make that one a little prone to random fluctuation, not to mention updates, power problems, possible damage to circuitry, rather speedy obsolescence in favor of a new kind/type/display ... something you simply don't have with a bound book.
 
...There are simply so many, many things that a print book has that electronic versions simply don't, and likely never will. That is not to put them down. That is simply to say that it really is quite valid to say that there are just some aspects to having the books that the other can never replace, and those are indeed a part of the reading experience as well.

That's why I expect that print books will always be around, for those who insist on that "print" experience... in the same way that paperbacks didn't end the hardback industry. Rather, I expect e-books to take some (eventually most?) of the paperback market, and sit among all other book forms. After all, there's nothing wrong with variety.

Oh, and as for your comments about a spine ... "a good wine needs no bush".

"I never drink... wine."
 
I dont think I could ever read a book on anything other than paper. Ive read about a device that lets you read a book from it, like download it from a site( i dont know if it actually exists or not) and that would probably be the last thing I would want in the world.
 
If you tend to read books that require large illustrations, you can use a dedicated e-book reader (like Sony's new reader), which has a large screen good for illustrations. PDAs are better for straight text without detailed illustrations, though they display color covers nicely.

It seems that is a USA-only product, so I'm looking for other ideas.
Most of what I read doesn't require large illustrations, so I imagine I could splash out on a hardcover edition on those that do and just look for something decent to read on for the rest.

It has to not strain my eyes too much to read on them.
I walk or bus anywhere I go, so it has to fit in my shoulderbag.
I don't want it to eat too much batteries.
I'm not overly rich though I'm not poor either

Any ideas?
(Yeah, I know that regular books do cover that, and some pople are bound to want to mention that, but moving around as much as I do and having once lost almost all of my books while moving, something lighter would be nice).
 

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