Age, Fantasy and Coming of Age Stories

[Toby Frost]

Last week I was talking to a friend who writes crime but doesn't read it much anymore. I realised that I feel the same way with quite a lot of SFF.

Part of the reason for this, especially in fantasy, is that so much of it is about very young people (I'm not talking about YA here) and so many of the stories are coming-of-age stories. I'm middle-aged and don't have children and the problems of teenagers don't really resonate for me. I remember thinking that Sanza in A Game of Thrones wasn't so much naive as plain dim. I think I'm also more drawn to stories about professionals who are skilled at what they do than stories about people just starting out.

Does anyone else find this, or am I on my own here?

 

[Elentarri]

You are not the only one.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I don't mind, provided I like the character - that goes for gnarly old gits and for fresh-faced eejits.

 

[BAYLOR]

Toby , If you feel the way you do about what your currently writing , maybe you should move to the type of stories that want to do at this stage of your life. Doing something that gives you no fulfilments or joy is no longer a labor of love , it's just labor . You love writing , you need not give that up , just change the direction of it to something you want. You have that choice and power so, use it.

 

[The Big Peat]

I would suggest this view of fantasy is a bit narrow and out of date, relating primarily to a movement that's now 30-40 years old that's given way to a more varied palette, and that even if if it was correct the genre is so big these days that there's not much shortage of older, more experienced protagonists. To toss a few names off after about five minutes thought -

There's most of Pratchett, there's Eddings' Elenium, plenty of Gemmell, there's Peter McLean's stuff and Jen Williams' stuff, EJ Beaton's The Councillor, quite a bit of Abercrombie (Best Served Cold in particular), there's Lynch's Gentleman Bastards, I think you'd like Stephen Deas' stuff, some of Lackey's stuff (Black Gryphon series and Exile's Honour series notably, also Tarma and Kethry mostly), I'd say Cherryh's Morgaine stuff, in fact more or less all Sword & Sorcery now I'm heading that way... Eames' Kings of the Wyld, Whitecastle's Queens of the Wyrd, everything De Bodard has done, there's Saad Z Hossain's two most recent novellas which I think you might really like, Kay's latest (and many others) aren't Coming of Age, there's Gaiman's American Gods and Anansi Boys, Butcher's Dresden Files, Hackwith's Library of the Unwritten...

I shall stop there for now (sorry, I won't, Bujold's Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls deserve mention) but if you don't want to read about teenagers in fantasy you don't have to. Coming of age stories are not that dominant in the genre.

Also, for what it's worth, while I am exasperated by certain brands of stereotypical teenage behaviour, I mostly don't care as long as the character is interesting and going through an interesting crisis.

 

[Toby Frost]

Well, I'm not saying that fantasy is clogged with stories about farmboys any more (assuming that it ever was, which I doubt). It's just that, when I read crime or thrillers, I'm reading about people who are not just skilled but fully-integrated into their world. I find that much more appealling.

Toby , If you feel the way you do about what your currently writing , maybe you should move to the type of stories that want to do at this stage of your life.

Don't worry, it's a reading rather than a writing query! But it does make me wonder if I'm writing what people want to read. That said, for one thing, I don't intend to change writing what I currently write, and for another, I think there's certainly a niche for what I write, although I'm not sure how big it is.

 

[The Big Peat]

Well, I'm not saying that fantasy is clogged with stories about farmboys any more (assuming that it ever was, which I doubt). It's just that, when I read crime or thrillers, I'm reading about people who are not just skilled but fully-integrated into their world. I find that much more appealling.

How do you mean fully-integrated? I think I know what you mean but am curious.

 

[Bramandin]

Weird. I remember reading plenty of Sci Fi and Fantasy books where the characters were adults, but maybe there's less new stuff available because it's not in fashion? Sure there were some teenagers, but it didn't seem like teenagers were the target audience, if that makes sense. They were more young adults than people who answered to a parental figure.

 

[Boaz]

@The Big Peat I second your recommendation of Lois McMaster Bujold's The Curse of Chalion.

When I turned thirty years old, I found I had not only lost any taste for teenage heroes, I discovered that I actively sought out stories with characters in their thirties. Now, at fifty-six, I still gravitate towards characters with whom I share similar life experiences. I think this is natural human behavior.... I assume almost all of us are doing it. And yet, in my opinion, there is always an influx of creative arts marketed to the public from younger authors, painters, film makers, et al. and that the target audience of these marketers is a younger audience. We, the posters in this thread, are already die hard and true believers in sci-fi and fantasy literature. We will sift through to find what we want, but the years of our purchasing are less and less. Marketers need to hook audiences with forty years or more of purchasing ahead of them.

@Toby Frost I also am interested the term "fully integrated."

I'd also like to comment upon your reference to A Game of Thrones. In AGOT, George Martin writes each chapter from the point of view of a character.

Eddard Stark, aged somewhere 33-36
Catelyn Stark, 31-34
Tyrion Lannister, 23-26
Jon Snow, 14-15
Daenerys Targaryen, 13-14
Sansa Stark, 11-12
Arya Stark, 9-10
Brandon Stark, 7-8

SPOILER ALERT

It seems fairly clear early on that Jon and Dany are destined to be the two candidates to lead the next generation. Throw in Sansa, Arya, Bran and their brother, Robb, and you have six strong and noble characters on arcs to lead/save the world. We are also given Theon Greyjoy, 19, Joffrey Baratheon, 12, in the first book. Fast forward through book five, A Dance with Dragons, and perhaps three or four years have passed and these characters have experienced much more of life. As expected, Sansa is betrothed to the Crown Prince, Joffrey becomes King, Dany gets three dragons and becomes a Queen, Bran gets magical powers, Jon becomes Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Theon's father becomes a king and makes Theon a warleader, Arya gets trained by a master swordsman, and Robb becomes King in the North.... BUT teenage kings Joffrey and Robb are both assasinated, Bran is crippled and left in a cave for the rest of his life, Arya loses all family and identity, Theon betrays his best friend and gets tortured and gelded, Sansa has to watch her father's murder, Dany's rule crumbles to revolt, invasion, and disease, while Jon is murdered by his own men.

Martin seems to be making the point that teenagers with wolf pets, dragon companions, magical powers, impeccable lineage, beautiful bodies, and fabulous riches will all amount to nothing because of foolish decisions stemming from a lack of experience. Teenagers thrust into world leadership don't save the world, it burns.

On the other hand, Eddard and Catelyn, the experienced adults also get themselves betrayed and murdered. Tyrion, a nominal villain, is the person with the healthiest respect for the dangers of the world and a solid grasp of his own strengths and weaknesses.

 

[The Big Peat]

I still gravitate towards characters with whom I share similar life experiences. I think this is natural human behavior.... I assume almost all of us are doing it.

A lot of us, but I have to say I often have a draw to characters with whom I have nothing surface level in common with. I know how minds a bit like mine work! It's everyone else who has the potential to offer something fascinating and new.

 

[Bramandin]

A lot of us, but I have to say I often have a draw to characters with whom I have nothing surface level in common with. I know how minds a bit like mine work! It's everyone else who has the potential to offer something fascinating and new.

I'm trying to think of books I've read where there's a human character that's relatable for me... Sixth Grade Can Really Kill You is the only one that comes to mind. Otherwise it's aliens and androids.

 

[JunkMonkey]

No, you're not the only one. I remember, back at the turn of the century, my dad saying he was fed up with reading about 16 year olds saving the universe. He'd been reading SF since the late 1940s.
A while back I realised the best bit about most of the SF films I was watching, the bits I enjoyed most, was all the stuff leading up to what my teenage self would have considered the start of the story. All the world-building, character establishment, set design, problem-solving exploration. Alien became a template for so many films that started off interestingly enough with teams of explorers / researchers / unlucky buggers out in distant enclosed environments until their equivalent of the chestbursting, meal scene. Then they just get dull. After that it's running around screaming and shouting and doing stupid things till enough of the cast have been eaten. Yawn.

 

[Parson]

@Toby Frost --- I think you are on to something here. It resonates with me, that's for sure. I think I can best illustrates this from video rather than books at this point. I've found three series in recent months that I really like, and none of them could be interpreted as "Coming of Age" kinds of stories, but more as seriously adult stories. (I am not using Adult in the pornographic sense here at all! The use of that word for pornography is very frustrating to me.) They are Night Skies where perhaps the two most important lead characters (to this point anyway) are at least in their 60's. Grantchester which follows a Vicar and a detective solving crimes in 1954 England, and Tehran a hard boiled no holds barred spy story. In these stories everyone is dealing with their less than perfect lives changing what little they can effect themselves, and the first two I can fairly easily see myself in the story. And in the normal "Coming of Age" stories, I can't.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I think young person stories are so popular because they're about gaining identity in the adult world, which is an endlessly fascinating scenario. Certainly that's how I approached my two "young person trilogies." Perhaps though it's also about matching readership to main characters. When you're young, the last thing you want to read about is old people. When you're old, you don't mind reading about anybody.

 

[Elentarri]

The "magic-know-it-all-can-do-it-all-can-pull-miracles-our-of-their-arse-are-more-intelligent-than-all-the-adults-but-still-whine-alot-and-do-stupid-things-because-they-didn't-listen" teenagers who have no parents (imagine that!) or whose parents are just somehow not around to supervise and stick a spanner in the works (how bloody convenient!) are what annoy me most about the newer fantasy novels with teenage protagonists. Of course, the never ending series syndrome is also annoying.

 

[Toby Frost]

Lots to think about here, and I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks this!

By "integrated" I mean "in a reasonably comfortable or settled place in their world". Examples might be a spy whose cover is well-established, a gay man who is quite happy being gay and isn't bothered by anyone for it, or a private eye who is depressed and cynical about the world, but functions within it. I suppose that sort of setup lends itself to the "missions" type plot of many action and detective stories, where every week the characters defeat a new enemy or solve a new crime, and do much the same thing next week, without changing much over time.

@Parson I agree. Incidentally, while trying to work out what my fantasy novels were, I did look for "adult fantasy". I can safely say my books aren't that!

@JunkMonkey Alien is an interesting example, as purely in plot terms, it's the sort of story usually told about teenagers (monster chases victims around enclosed location, picking them off in gruesome ways). I think it gains a lot from having an older cast and ditching a lot of the sterotypical teenage things you might see in a film like that (as well as effects, setting and many other aspects).

I wonder if I'm not so much objecting to young protagonists as origin stories. I think it's both, really.

 

[Bramandin]

The "magic-know-it-all-can-do-it-all-can-pull-miracles-our-of-their-arse-are-more-intelligent-than-all-the-adults-but-still-whine-alot-and-do-stupid-things-because-they-didn't-listen" teenagers who have no parents (imagine that!) or whose parents are just somehow not around to supervise and stick a spanner in the works (how bloody convenient!) are what annoy me most about the newer fantasy novels with teenage protagonists. Of course, the never ending series syndrome is also annoying.

I can't remember why I thought of this, but I actually loved the fifth turtle in the 90's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He was a little kid that was somehow obsessed with the turtles and they actually accepted him as an occasional member of the team. I also didn't mind Wesley on Star Trek. But guess what, those characters appeal to ignorant kids. I will accept that maybe those types of characters should be contained to stories meant for kids.

That's not to say that the kid can't have a good idea that saves the day, but they need to be balanced for the setting instead of an adult story bending over backwards for them. In Legend of Korra, they actually had the adults say that they would help a little bit, but the conflict is the young-people's problem to solve.

 

[Rodders]

It's a common theme in Science Fiction too.

Feintuch's Hope series and Miles Cameron's Artifact Space come immediately to mind as both feature young and weirdly competent youths. Let us not forget the Honor Harrington series.

I'm not criticizing as i found each of these to be a good read, but i always felt that there was an element of wish fulfillment to them. I wonder whether publishers stipulate a younger protagonist to attract a teenage audience.

 

[JunkMonkey]

I also didn't mind Wesley on Star Trek. But guess what, those characters appeal to ignorant kids. I will accept that maybe those types of characters should be contained to stories meant for kids.

Nor do I. I think the difference with Wesley in TNG is that he is not always the focus of the story. TNG is not Lost in Space where - from what I remember - everything seemed to revolve around Will Robinson getting into scrapes, discovering the alien of the week, etc. Some TNG stories definitely fall into the coming of age, maturing as an individual category - in others he's a useful plot tool to get the exposition flowing but other times the way the other characters treat and act around him makes them question their roles and expectations as adults in a slightly deeper than a Brady Bunch "Well, I guess we can all learn a lesson from this..." level - which is no bad thing to do.

 

[Elentarri]

Nor do I. I think the difference with Wesley in TNG is that he is not always the focus of the story. TNG is not Lost in Space where - from what I remember - everything seemed to revolve around Will Robinson getting into scrapes, discovering the alien of the week, etc. Some TNG stories definitely fall into the coming of age, maturing as an individual category - in others he's a useful plot tool to get the exposition flowing but other times the way the other characters treat and act around him makes them question their roles and expectations as adults in a slightly deeper than a Brady Bunch "Well, I guess we can all learn a lesson from this..." level - which is no bad thing to do.

I agree with this whole heartedly.