What did Sauron want?

[Brian G Turner]

Apologies if this sounds like a facetious question, but what did Sauron actually want?

I presume that he isn't simply a generic mindless evil character, and I know he must have a rich back story relating to Morgoth and the Ishtari.

Not having read the Silmarillion, my guess would be that he was trying to supplant the existing races of Middle Earth with ones of his own design - a form of rebellion and control over whichever gods had set up elves, dwarfs, and humans.

However, I'm really not sure - anyone able to advise?

 

[BAYLOR]

He offered his services to the the Gods who brought down Morgoth and was rejected.

 

[J Riff]

He just wanted a last name, that's all. Sauron Smith, Sauron Jones, anything at all. I guess he never knew his family, was raised by reptiles, and went bonkers and became evil. Maybe he had a last name? I read the Silmarillion but can't remember much..

 

[BAYLOR]

He just wanted a last name, that's all. Sauron Smith, Sauron Jones, anything at all. I guess he never knew his family, was raised by reptiles, and went bonkers and became evil. Maybe he had a last name? I read the Silmarillion but can't remember much..

If the Gods of Middle Earth had accepted his services, he would have become a good guy.

 

[ralphkern]

I remember wondering this when I watched the films the first time round.

From wiki:

Melkor opposed the other Valar, who remained faithful to Eru and tried to carry out the Creator's designs. Within the larger universe, they eventually focused on developing the world of Arda (Earth, or the entire solar system). Around this time, Sauron fell victim to Melkor's corrupting influence: "In the beginning of Arda, Melkor seduced him to his allegiance."[17]

As for Sauron's motives, Tolkien noted that "it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall ...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction". Thus "it was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him".[18]

 

[ralphkern]

Which seems a touch at odds as the Orcs, goblins Uruk hai seem to be even more chaotic than the humans, elves and dwarves (although they as a whole, they seemed better at coordinating themselves into a unified force... so maybe the macro was what bothered him rather than the micro)

Basically... he was a bit OCD? (I can sympathize!)

 

[Extollager]

Tolkien had a much profounder conception of evil than most authors, whether of fantasy or realistic fiction. I'd refer you to Tom Shippey's discussions of this and related topics in The Road to Middle-earth and Tolkien: Author of the Century.

One will get off to a wrong start if one assumes that a depraved mind is a reasonable intelligence that simply uses illicit methods to secure its ends, or wants more than its fair share, etc.

Sauron was, of course, of an order of beings that we may describe as quasi-gods; it might be that to some degree we can't plumb such an intelligence (whether retaining its created holiness and splendor or fallen from that estate). After all, there is reason to doubt we understand even ourselves so very well, perhaps less so now, when spirit is collapsed into psyche, than formerly.

However, some at least of Tolkien's characters can understand Sauron to a degree. Hence the strategy of destroying the Ring -- something Sauron can scarcely conceive of anyone doing, the surrender of any degree of power being something he would never do.

Sauron wants slaves. We can say that, in part, he wants slaves because with slaves he can do things. But I think much of it is that he wants the pleasure of dominating beings that have wills, but wills that are enthralled to his own. He also wants to avenge himself upon any wills that are independent of his.

Does anyone doubt that this sort of thing is a powerful motivator? I think we see it every day. For example, mobs delight in the crushing of persons who differ from them. Think of images from China's unspeakable Red Guard period.

And that is where we are going today, mark my words. Just look at the first picture here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?_r=0

That's one side of evil, the lust to seek out every last will that is independent of one's own and to crush it. "Hatred" is almost too weak a word. It doesn't want to reason with someone but to punish and punish, savoring the diabolical pleasure of breaking another person's inner being until it can never recover.

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.” -- That's more or less what Sauron wanted.

You'll get insight into evil by reading Tolkien's friend Lewis's novel Perelandra, quite a bit of which is a (to me) riveting dialogue between an ordinary earthman and a corpse animated by a devil. To the degree that the sequence seems boring and preachy, the reader is perhaps just not ready for very much reality.

 

[Extollager]

In short, Sauron is an embodiment of libido dominandi, as A. M. MacQuarrie of the University of Waterloo indicated in 1968, in the brochure accompanying an early (the first?) exhibition of art by Tolkien (also featuring art inspired by Tolkien).

 

[Davidjb]

The Silmarillion does cover this to some extent, as others have already said. At the beginning of that book the gods create a song and each one has his own part to play in the song. Melkor, the first dark lord (Sauron was simply a lieutenant at the time), wanted to change the song to suit him and make his part seem more important. Some gods followed his theme and at times their song was discordant and tried to drown out the main theme, becoming brash and a braying of trumpets and crashing of drums. The gods were then shown what they were singing about, the world, and what each one's theme was about. So, in effect, Melkor and Sauron simply wanted a greater role in the creation of the world, regardless of the effect they might have.

 

[Brian G Turner]

So...if Sauron had won, what would have changed in Middle Easrth?

 

[Extollager]

Brian's question invites speculation. I wish some good interviewer had asked Tolkien, who would, I suspect, have paused and then said something wise.

I imagine more and more of Middle-earth would have looked like Mordor. Sauron, we must assume, hates the One. He must hate all His works, too. Tolkien would have affirmed the Biblical language about God that speaks of "the fair beauty of the Lord." Beauty eternal and uncreated is manifested in beauty temporal and created. God Himself, apart from the Incarnation, cannot be injured, but His temporal creatures can; Sauron would seek to damage them. I'm not sure he would seek to destroy all life since he is a torturer and would not perhaps wish to have no further victims.

One other possibility, not necessarily incompatible with the above, would be that at some point Sauron would seek to use Middle-earth as a base for striking, in some way, against the Valar and the Undying Realm.

One might also speculate about a possible desire to set his master Morgoth free to ravage Eä.

One must imagine Sauron as consumed by spite and rage. I don't actually find it hard to conceive the notion of such a creature since we can see such good examples of nihilism in our own recent history. Hitler and others were limited not only by the exigencies of moving armies around and so on but by their own mortality. One must conceive of Sauron as "immortal," and having little or no dependence on the physical world. Eventually he might desire the destruction of Arda and all things. A puny mortal like Hitler was willing for his "beloved" Germany to go down in flames. I suppose we get a hint of what Sauron was like from such things.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If the Gods of Middle Earth had accepted his services, he would have become a good guy

Or they rejected his services because he would have poisoned and corrupted their creations.

 

[Boaz]

Good topic, Brian.

I find myself agreeing very much with Ex.

It may seem nitpicking, but I cannot agree with calling any of the Ainur gods. The Ainur are the first creations of Eru (Tolkien's uncreated, eternal, omnipotent creator). Ainur is the plural form of Ainu (holy one). I prefer to call them angels rather than gods. Their powers are varied. They were created to enjoy Eru's presence and to assist in building his universe. Eru imparted to each of them gifts of knowledge and ability with which they were to engage in beautifying and maintaining Creation. To us, holy means sacred, hallowed, religious, or pious, but something or someone is sacred because it is different and set aside for a special purpose. The Ainur were not like Elves, Dwarves, Men, Ents, or Hobbits... they were different, set aside for Eru's special plans.

The first and mightiest of the Ainur are Manwe and Melkor (also called Morgoth). Manwe was gifted more of the mind of Eru than any other of the Ainur, but Melkor was gifted some of the individual knowledge that each Ainu was given. As Eru described his designs to the assembled Ainur, Melkor conceived a desire to begin his own creation. Since Melkor was born of the very thought of Eru and had been entrusted with a vast breadth of knowledge of Eru's plans, this was rebellion. Eru gently reined in Melkor, but Melkor fought back. Even after Eru rebuked Melkor and incorporated Melkor's flawed creations into his own, Melkor harbored resentment.

What did Melkor want? Melkor wanted to rule. Melkor, a created being who was given a personal vision and power from his creator, thought he could do a better job than his creator.

If you read the link in Extollager's post #7, you might compare Eru's treatment of Melkor with Mr. Biddle's treatment of Miss Sacco. I'd say Eru went very easy on treason.

What did Sauron actually want? He wanted to be like Melkor, his mentor.

Eru sent a number of the Ainur to Arda (the world in which Middle-earth exists). The fourteen mightiest were to lead the hundreds, perhaps thousands of of Ainur. The fourteen, led by Manwe, are the Valar and the rest are the Maiar. Melkor also went to Arda where he persuaded many Maiar to join him in opposing Manwe's efforts to fulfill the will of Eru. Initially, Melkor's opposition was merely the thwarting the environmental efforts of Manwe's group... this later became open war. One of the mightier Maia to join Melkor was Sauron.

He originally served Aule, the smith of the Valar. Sauron was probably instrumental in founding and maintaining Melkor's second greatest stronghold, Angband. The war between the Valar and Melkor lasted ages... and in the end they basically split the world into their two spheres of influence... Valinor (the land of the Valar) and Middle-earth. During this time, the Ainur were the only speaking and thinking creatures in Arda. Once the Valar became aware of the existence of Elves in Middle-earth, they committed themselves to total war against Melkor and defeated him. Melkor was imprisoned. I don't know what happened to all of the Maiar who served Melkor... I suspect some were forced to go to Valinor to be judged, I suspect some repented, but Sauron and the Balrogs escaped justice and went into hiding. When Melkor escaped like Napoleon from Elba, Sauron quickly rejoined him as his chief lieutenant. Sauron oversaw the destruction of Minas Tirith (no, not the same Minas Tirith... this one was a stronghold of the Elves of the First Age) and pillaging of Dorthonion (an Elven land that was crucial to encircling Angband).

When the Valar finally came forth to defeat Melkor for the final time, Sauron was captured. The Silmarillion says that Sauron seemed completely sincere in his confession of his guilt. He repented to Manwe's heralds, but when told that he'd have to go to Valinor to be personally judged by Manwe, Sauron fled. He escaped justice a second time and remained in Middle-earth to nurse his grudge against the Valar, the Eldar (the Elves, specifically the Noldor) and the Edain (the Men of the West).

In no way did the Valar reject his services. Sauron willingly joined Melkor's rebellion. Sauron willingly joined Melkor's second reign as Dark Lord. Sauron declined to answer to Manwe's judgement for thousands of years of rebellion, murder, and torture. I don't see any way that Sauron was a victim of the Valar nor was there ever any offer by Sauron to assist the Valar in protecting or healing the people and the land of Arda.

Unlike Melkor, Sauron's knowledge, passions, and powers lay only in smithing... well, and in murder, betrayal, and destruction, i.e. the things Melkor taught him. Sauron applied his knowledge of smithing to forge the One Ring... a master ring to control the nineteen rings of power made by the Elves. Three of these rings were made in secret and were the greatest of the Elven rings... Sauron never touched them.

If Sauron had won, what would have changed in Middle Earth? This is an easier question to answer.

Forty-four hundred years before Bilbo's party (give or take a few hundred), Sauron took the sixteen other rings of power made by the Elves. His force of Orcs crushed the Elves. The next fifteen hundred years or so were the Dark Ages of Middle-earth.

Sauron gave nine of those rings to human kings and lords.... these unfortunate men were turned into wraiths... Ring Wraiths. The Nazgul.

Three thousand years before Sam married Rosie, the last king of Numenor, Ar-Pharazon launched a campaign to wrest control of Middle-earth from Sauron. The Numenoreans were so numerous and so much better equipped that Sauron's armies fled. Sauron was imprisoned by Men and taken as captive to Numenor (home of the Men of the West, the progenitors of the Gondorians). Within two years, Sauron had moved from the dungeon to the palace as Ar-Pharazon's chief counselor. Within ten years, Sauron had the king and the court worshiping Melkor while he performed human sacrifices. And finally, Sauron convinced Ar-Pharazon that the Valar did not possess power in and of themselves... he lied that the land gave immortality to whomever ruled it... and Ar-Pharazon led his armies to assault Valinor itself.

Sauron wanted to corrupt Eru's creation and to thwart Manwe's plans because he liked controlling others. His rule would have included devil worship, human sacrifice, and eternal torture.

As an angel, a creature who has actually been in the presence of his creator, Sauron's continued disobedience to Eru's specific plan for him is treason.

 

[Grimward]

As an angel, a creature who has actually been in the presence of his creator, Sauron's continued disobedience to Eru's specific plan for him is treason.

Lots of great insights, and I offer a difference only on 1 point, expanding on Davidjb's Silmarillion reference.

Say rather, that Sauron was one of the voices that joined Melkor's theme in the Ainulindalë, and despite his intent, achieved only Ilúvatar's continuing design:

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." For all their malice, Melkor (and Sauron after him) were only carrying out the song. Sauron didn't win, but had he "won" it would only have led to something more magnificent.

Hard to imagine Tolkien conceiving of something even more wonderful than the story and world he created, much less finding the 2nd lifetime to render it into words.

This of course returns us to Brian's question. What indeed.

 

[BAYLOR]

Or they rejected his services because he would have poisoned and corrupted their creations.

Its been a while since i read the Silmarillion , I didn't remember that bit.

 

[reiver33]

If Sauron wins then the Elves are toast (or they flee into the west), and Gondor gets trashed given its heritage. Dwarves - probably too stubborn to submit, so they go as well. In general, though, Sauron didn't seem to mind the Kingdoms of Men (Dunlendings, Southrons, Wainriders, etc.) as they were easily suborned. But Brian's question is 'then what'? As unchallenged master of Middle-Earth, what are Sauron's achievable aims? He knows that attempting to invade the Undying Lands is a non-starter - the earlier effort was just a ruse to destroy Numenor. Given that the 'industrialised' Saruman was seen as someone who could be co-opted, I'd say that we would see more of the same throughout Middle-Earth; corruption of the 'grand design' through industrialised pollution of the environment and a move away from the pastoral idyll that was portrayed as the natural (and thus divine) 'human condition'.

Oh, hang on a minute...

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Tolkien's conception of evil, though complex, was limited by it being almost identical to the Christian view of evil (he was a believer, and insisted that Edith convert to Catholicism for instance). For all LOTR's wonders - and it is a wonderful book - it is very much a novel of the time it was written, even given the enormous amount of pre-Norman influence. Tolkien would never have understood humanism.

 

[VinceK]

I agree with @Stephen Palmer. I believe the seven deadly sins: Anger, Envy, Greed, Lust, Sloth, Gluttony and Pride are all present in some form as Sauron tries to exploit the weaknesses in others as a way of corrupting them and bending them to his will.

 

[galanx]

Extollager said

“If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.” -- That's more or less what Sauron wanted.

Which is why both LOTR and 1984 fall into the category of melodrama rather than drama (note: not a judgement- there can be excellently written melodrama as well).

In reality, outside of a few sociopaths, people don't hold power for the purpose of torturing others- they do so for either their own benefit -wealth, luxury etc.- or because they believe in a cause: the survival of the Aryan race; the worldwide liberation of the oppressed proletariat; the establishment of the rule of Christ/Mohammed/whoever here on Earth. Stalin and Mao were sincere believers in the Revolution; while they both enjoyed power, they thought that what they were doing was necessary for the realisation of their ideal of benefiting their own people in particular and humanity in general.

Even Hitler, as can be seen in his postwar plans, believed what he was doing was for the benefit of the German race which was being threatened with destruction by the evil machinations of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy.

'Realistically', Sauron would have looked at Middle-Earth and seen Gondor crumbling in decay; Eriador depopulated; the Dwarves scattered; the Elves abandoning the outside world; and figured this place needed straightening up: roads, forges, expansion...just like Sharkey in the Shire.

 

[Narkalui]

I think that's the main reason for The Scouring of the Shire, to show how things would have turned out with Sauron's victory. Though the thought occurs that perhaps Saruman was not quite as brutal as Sauron would have been.