Lasting Impact?

[Toby Frost]

I was thinking about the TV show of Game of Thrones recently, and I was struck by how little obvious lasting impact it seems to have had. Back before the pandemic, Game of Thrones was huge. In the office where I work, it was continually discussed by people who would normally never go near a fantasy novel: not just in terms of plot, but as a piece of work, what it meant for TV in the future, whether it was sexist, and so on.

And it seems to have dropped out of public consciousness extremely quickly. Obviously there are still people who are fans of the books, and there is now House of the Dragon, but its hold on the general public seems to have disappeared. Maybe it's down to the last seasons being generally seen as weak, or perhaps the pandemic just blotted it out (although everyone stuck at home must have wanted something to watch). I don't know if it's had subtler effects on the way that TV drama is made and watched. Maybe it's brought fantasy into the mainstream somewhat, but I'm not even sure about that. Or am I missing something?

 

[paranoid marvin]

It's definitely helped promote fantasy on tv; I think 'Rings of Power' was made on the back of it, as well (obviously) as House of Dragon.

GoT went downhill fast in the last 3 seasons, but I don't think it's why we don't get the same discussion. With so many channels, with so many shows, people simply move on to the next thing. Which is precisely what tv producers want viewers to do. Line of Duty, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, 24, Lost, Friends - the list goes on. All seen as great tv shows, and talk about during their day, but now (for most) they are yesterday's news.

Which is why it's a shame that great tv shows such as I, Claudius, Sapphire & Steel, Blakes 7, Star Trek TOS, DS9 and TNG - amongst many, many others - have all bern lost in time to 90%+ of the viewing public.

 

[HareBrain]

With so many channels, with so many shows, people simply move on to the next thing. Which is precisely what tv producers want viewers to do. Line of Duty, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, 24, Lost, Friends - the list goes on. All seen as great tv shows, and talk about during their day, but now (for most) they are yesterday's news.

Wasn't that true even when there only a handful of a channels? Were general viewers still talking much about Upstairs, Downstairs years after it ended?

There are still retrospective videos put up on YouTube about the GoT show, and they seem to get decent view counts, but the problems with the last few seasons mean these are mostly critical. I don't think it has retained the kind of fan-base that, say, Lost has.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Wasn't that true even when there only a handful of a channels? Were general viewers still talking much about Upstairs, Downstairs years after it ended?

There are still retrospective videos put up on YouTube about the GoT show, and they seem to get decent view counts, but the problems with the last few seasons mean these are mostly critical. I don't think it has retained the kind of fan-base that, say, Lost has.

I watched Lost through to the bitter end. There are many tv shows I can (and do) watch again. This is not one of them. The directions it started going off in were bizarre and ruined what was initially a fascinating, intriguing, gripping tv series.

Apart from internet forums and fan sites, I think that hardly any tv shows (or movies) from the past continue to be actively discussed.

 

[Foxbat]

I’m not particularly surprised in the lack of lasting impact. It’s simply the throwaway nature of modern life. Used. Forgotten. Out for recycling along with all the Gusto boxes and plastic containers.

I think a good way to measure impact or lack of would be to look at how many babies were named after characters when the show was at its height and how many are being named after them now.

 

[Toby Frost]

I'm not sure it can be written off as "people forget things quickly now". People become intense fans of, say, The Mandalorian or the new Marvel films, and that enthusiasm doesn't disappear as soon as another shiny thing arrives. Shows like Breaking Bad and The Wire aren't entirely forgotten when they stop showing (it helps that both of these were consistently very good). I wonder if part of the appeal and the failure of GoT is its rather soapy nature: while it did come to an end, it frequently felt as if it wasn't going to and didn't need to. There wasn't an easy question that could be answered ("How close is Frodo to dropping the ring into Mount Doom?" say) to determine whether it was going to end.

It seems to me that GoT went from "huge" to "virtually forgotten" extremely quickly, and that wasn't inevitable.

 

[CupofJoe]

I think it is as simple as media diversity.
When there were 3 TV channels and no home cinema, a show or a film could have almost national impact when it was first experience. Everyone would experience the same show at the same time. It became memorable.
anyone the right age to remember the 6 month wait for ET to arrive in the UK [and bootleg tapes being handed around to those luck enough to have a video play?]
With on demand and the plethora of TV channels, there are few such Events.
Not enough people watch the same thing at the same time for any show to make a lasting impact.
ITV may have lucked into one with Mr Bates vs The Post Office. Or maybe they didn't. They knew they had the after holiday's dead spot and filled it with a concentrated showing [4 nights in a row?] of high quality drama. Add in a great cast and story and it flew.
It was still only seen by about 5m each night [and apparently has lost them money], but it became more than just a TV show...
Questions were raised in Parliament. Laws written. People exonerated.
[I can remember the TV News report about the video of revealing who killed JR arriving at Heathrow Airport]

 

[KGeo777]

I haven't watched it but I recall Diana Rigg saying that the lack of necessity to save costs on footage or tape impacted performance.
Perhaps it all comes down to the speed of modern life but I suspect there is a lack of intensity in presentation which makes things more disposable too.
The Sopranos was a big deal but I have no desire to rewatch it--and the two most memorable regular characters -to me anyway-- were Paulie Walnuts and Silvio, and they were the ones who had the most intense, exaggerated behavior.

I couldn't get into ROME because I found the cast boring.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I was thinking about the TV show of Game of Thrones recently, and I was struck by how little obvious lasting impact it seems to have had. Back before the pandemic, Game of Thrones was huge. In the office where I work, it was continually discussed by people who would normally never go near a fantasy novel: not just in terms of plot, but as a piece of work, what it meant for TV in the future, whether it was sexist, and so on.

And it seems to have dropped out of public consciousness extremely quickly. Obviously there are still people who are fans of the books, and there is now House of the Dragon, but its hold on the general public seems to have disappeared. Maybe it's down to the last seasons being generally seen as weak, or perhaps the pandemic just blotted it out (although everyone stuck at home must have wanted something to watch). I don't know if it's had subtler effects on the way that TV drama is made and watched. Maybe it's brought fantasy into the mainstream somewhat, but I'm not even sure about that. Or am I missing something?

I think it's simply that because it's not current it's not entering discussion - but IMO it's definitely in the public psyche and will remain embedded in our culture so for decades to come.

 

[Pyan]

Which is why it's a shame that great tv shows such as I, Claudius, Sapphire & Steel, Blakes 7, Star Trek TOS, DS9 and TNG - amongst many, many others - have all bern lost in time to 90%+ of the viewing public.

Star Trek TOS, DS9 and TNG (Legend, 41) plus Star Trek: Enterprise (Sky Mix, 11)are all showing on Freeview.
ITVX has Sapphire & Steel and Blake's 7, + Farscape. If you've got Prime, Lexx is also available. I, Claudius is on the BBC iPlayer.

 

[Ursa major]

I, Claudius is on the BBC iPlayer.

Shouldn't that be I, Player...?

 

[KGeo777]

I never watched--just wondering if it was quotable. One sign of longevity is if something has dialogue that gets carried on.

Beam me up, hey little buddy, who loves ya baby,

 

[paranoid marvin]

I never watched--just wondering if it was quotable. One sign of longevity is if something has dialogue that gets carried on.

Beam me up, hey little buddy, who loves ya baby,

There's a great quote about the naming of swords. Not suitable for repeating on the forum though.

 

[KGeo777]

There's a great quote about the naming of swords. Not suitable for repeating on the forum though.

Well the fact that it is aimed at a more adult rather than family-friendly audience would also be a factor. I, Claudius despite its sex and violence was somehow PBS friendly.


Guard: The girl is a virgin. It's unprecedented to kill a virgin. It will bring bad luck to the city.
Macro: Then make sure she's not a virgin when you kill her. Now get on with it!

Claudius: Oh, god of gods! Never have I witnessed a dance that gave me such p-profound s-spiritual joy!
Caligula: Oh. Did you like it?
Claudius: It was indesc-cribable.
Caligula: Well, it was only a rehearsal
Claudius: Oh. W-whatever will the f-finished performance be like?
Caligula: Get up. Come here. What did you think of the girl?
Claudius: Oh, b-beautiful
Caligula: You old lecher! Bring the girl back! I'm going to marry her to you tomorrow!

 

[paranoid marvin]

Augustus: "Is there anyone in Rome who has not slept with my daughter?!"

and

Claudius (when asked by Caligula if he is going mad) "You set the standard of sanity for the whole world!"

 

[Ursa major]

just wondering if it was quotable

There's a page for Game of Thrones on Wikiquote (which contains quotes about the show) that has links to each of the eight seasons (which, if season 1's page is anything to go by, contain many quotes from those seasons, arranged by episode).

 

[KGeo777]

l looked at the 1-3 seasons. The dialogue (whatever they felt was worth quoting on the Wiki page) seems to be focused on sexual (and scatological) matters--and more explicit than anything in I, Claudius. To be fair, that has the advantage of being connected to history so there's a road map--GOT is making it up as it goes, but there's something different--the dialogue is less focused on immediate and personal expression of personality through dialogue and more of a lecturing tone. Personality and behavior seems to be cloaked in layers of drawn-out exposition.


Tywin Lannister: Why is he still alive?
Jaime Lannister: Tyrion?
Tywin Lannister: Ned Stark.
Jaime Lannister: One of our men interfered, speared him through the leg before I could finish him.
Tywin Lannister: Why is he still alive?
Jaime Lannister: It wouldn't have been clean.
Tywin Lannister: Clean? You spend too much time worrying about what other people think of you.
Jaime Lannister: I could care less what anyone thinks of me.
Tywin Lannister: No, that's what you want people to think of you.
Jaime Lannister: It's the truth.
Tywin Lannister: When you hear them whispering "Kingslayer" behind your back, doesn't it bother you?
Jaime Lannister: Of course it bothers me.
Tywin Lannister: The lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep. I suppose I should be grateful your vanity got in the way of your recklessness. I'm giving you half of our forces. Thirty-thousand men. You will bring them to Catelyn Stark's girlhood home and remind her that Lannisters pay their debts!
Jaime Lannister: I didn't know you put such a high value on my brother's life.
Tywin Lannister: He's a Lannister. He might be the lowest of the Lannisters, but he is one of us. And every day that he remains a prisoner, the less our name commands respect.
Jaime Lannister: So, the lion does concern himself with the opinions of the-
Tywin Lannister: No, it's not an opinion, it's a fact! If another house can seize one of our own, and hold him captive with impunity, it means we're no longer a house to be feared!


Compared to:


Claudius: Well, is there no one among them you can trust? No man of integrity?
Tiberius: Not that I know of.
Caligula: Isn't that a terrible comment on our times, Uncle? On the other hand, if you can't find a man of integrity, I always say look for a man of ambition. Find a dog who'll eat a dog.
Tiberius: Do you know of such a person?
Caligula: Yes, I do. Sertorius Macro, Sejanus' second-in-command. He's very popular with the troops.
Claudius: He arrested Gallus.
Tiberius: Isn't he loyal to Sejanus?
Caligula: Oh, yes, of course, but he can't move up while Sejanus is still there, can he? And he is very ambitious.
Tiberius: Do you know him personally?
Caligula: No, but I've slept with his wife several times.
Tiberius: And is deception with the wife regarded these days as a sound introduction to the husband?!
Caligula: Oh, he knows about that. I told you. He's ambitious.
Tiberius: I shall make you my successor, Gaius Caligula! I’ve decided. You shall stay here with me. Rome deserves you. I will nurse you like a viper in her bosom.
Caligula: Is that a joke, uncle?
Tiberius: Not yet, but it will be.

 

[paranoid marvin]

Tywin Lannister is a 'lecturer', and in this scene is lecyuring to his don. What his true beliefs are we do not know, but how many fathers choose to lecture their sons rather than confide their innermost hopes and fears?

There is no doubt that I, Claudius is one of the great works of literature, and of the most successful transfers to television. But it feels more like a play, whilst GoT feels more like real life (without the dragons and magic).

 

[KGeo777]

Tywin Lannister is a 'lecturer', and in this scene is lecyuring to his don. What his true beliefs are we do not know, but how many fathers choose to lecture their sons rather than confide their innermost hopes and fears?

There is no doubt that I, Claudius is one of the great works of literature, and of the most successful transfers to television. But it feels more like a play, whilst GoT feels more like real life (without the dragons and magic).

I notice it in other scenes too where characters speak in a lecturing manner.
It's not just lecturing--it is revealing character through statements of action and personality rather than letting personality act them out.
There's a lot of telling lines that are basically 'this is what you think, this is who you are.'

I can't quote them because there's too much profanity.

The funny thing is that in that Claudius quote-they are mostly talking about someone who is not there--and yet in what I see of GOT--they do a lot of stating of people's natures while they are standing in the room. As if they need to remind the audience who the character is. "You are a whore." "You are a *******'s son."

I watched an Ironside yesterday that had a really good moment where dialogue reveals inner thought without stating it directly.

A former girlfriend manipulated his love for her by using him to clear her for a double murder. He believed she was innocent and then after he proves it--realizes she was the culprit, murdering her husband for adultery--by planting two sets of evidence.

She says after she is caught, having no remorse over it, "Tell me Robert, what was he? What is a Jason White? Without me? Nothing. I shaped him, I molded him, I created him. And for thanks, he used me."

Ironside has a long pause and then says, "Human beings do that some times, use the people that love them."

He's talking about her having used him--and she doesn't understand it-but the audience does.

 

[Toby Frost]

The dialogue (whatever they felt was worth quoting on the Wiki page) seems to be focused on sexual (and scatological)

Yeah, but almost every one of these "great quotes" mentioned from I Claudius boils down to "I shag birds me" or "Never trust a dame".