Simple Question.

[Bramandin]

I apologize if there was already a thread for quick questions.

What is the quickest way to describe the genetic compatibility of two groups? Like zebras and other equines, they can create a hybrid, but usually that hybrid is sterile.

 

[sknox]

One thing: quick questions rarely have quick answers, or at least not ones that are actually useful.

The quickest way to describe genetic compatibility is to say they are genetically compatible. What are you actually looking for on this question?

 

[Bramandin]

One thing: quick questions rarely have quick answers, or at least not ones that are actually useful.

The quickest way to describe genetic compatibility is to say they are genetically compatible. What are you actually looking for on this question?

To me, genetic compatibility could also include humans and dogs, where the offspring is fertile and can pass genetic material along. Looking up zebroids let me to Haldane's rule - Wikipedia but I can't understand the article and don't know if that describes how techno-elves and magic-elves could have a child, but that child would be infertile and makes it impossible to have a magic-elf with a techno-elf grandparent.

 

[THX1138]

I went through some of your past posts on your elves in order to hopefully get an idea of your them, but I may have missed some things too.

So, what is your definition or description or each of your two types of elves including their similarities and differentness? What is a techno elf? What is a magic elf? That might be your answer there.

Being that they are elves, there is no reason for them not to be compatible. Techno or magic should have no bearing on that.

If they are from the same planet but different times in history, then still no problem.

If they are from different planets/dimensions altogether then you have a good argument for non-compatibility.

But still, if there are more similarities genetically then differences, there could be a better chance based on percentage of shared similar key genetic traits.

Nature always wins in the end! And it looks like you have done some research on that part already.

 

[DLCroix]

In my opinion you could base yourself on the eight human blood groups. Applied to your race of elves, I suppose it would present the same principle: that a race is stronger the more it diversifies and becomes weaker and therefore does not prosper the more it insists on a supposed racial "purity" based on eugenics.

 

[Bramandin]

I went through some of your past posts on your elves in order to hopefully get an idea of your them, but I may have missed some things too.

So, what is your definition or description or each of your two types of elves including their similarities and differentness? What is a techno elf? What is a magic elf? That might be your answer there.

Being that they are elves, there is no reason for them not to be compatible. Techno or magic should have no bearing on that.

If they are from the same planet but different times in history, then still no problem.

If they are from different planets/dimensions altogether then you have a good argument for non-compatibility.

But still, if there are more similarities genetically then differences, there could be a better chance based on percentage of shared similar key genetic traits.

Nature always wins in the end! And it looks like you have done some research on that part already.

The difference between magic elves and techno-elves is probably akin to wizards vs muggles except that they became genetically distinct on the level of horses and zebras. (Great, now I'm wondering why their languages are similar enough that they could understand each other.) The magic elves have magic and the techno-elves worked on developing technology to make up for the lack. I don't think being from the same planet is enough to guarantee compatibility... we humans probably wiped out our closer genetic cousins and can't naturally have children with chimps.

In my opinion you could base yourself on the eight human blood groups. Applied to your race of elves, I suppose it would present the same principle: that a race is stronger the more it diversifies and becomes weaker and therefore does not prosper the more it insists on a supposed racial "purity" based on eugenics.

Eugenics isn't automatically a bad thing. On a human level, it can't be done because there are no right people to make those sorts of decisions and we're pretty much guaranteed that the absolutely wrong people would be in charge if we tried. It's more like dog-breeding except humans went nuts and introduced problems when they were concerned about appearance. The techno-elves also have cloning technology so they can patch lines as needed. *

* There is natural reproduction as well. The warrior-caste would be all-male except they recognize that losing the technology would mean losing that caste or having to cross-breed them with the worker-caste. There are some worker-caste with warriors in their recent lineage. The female warrior-caste isn't useless, but they're more often domestic security. For when someone breaks caste, the child might have their horns wrapped so they grow in the right shape for the caste that they belong to, but otherwise they're not shunned for their parent's mistake.

 

[THX1138]

The difference between magic elves and techno-elves is probably akin to wizards vs muggles except that they became genetically distinct on the level of horses and zebras. (Great, now I'm wondering why their languages are similar enough that they could understand each other.) The magic elves have magic and the techno-elves worked on developing technology to make up for the lack. I don't think being from the same planet is enough to guarantee compatibility... we humans probably wiped out our closer genetic cousins and can't naturally have children with chimps.



Eugenics isn't automatically a bad thing. On a human level, it can't be done because there are no right people to make those sorts of decisions and we're pretty much guaranteed that the absolutely wrong people would be in charge if we tried. It's more like dog-breeding except humans went nuts and introduced problems when they were concerned about appearance. The techno-elves also have cloning technology so they can patch lines as needed. *

* There is natural reproduction as well. The warrior-caste would be all-male except they recognize that losing the technology would mean losing that caste or having to cross-breed them with the worker-caste. There are some worker-caste with warriors in their recent lineage. The female warrior-caste isn't useless, but they're more often domestic security. For when someone breaks caste, the child might have their horns wrapped so they grow in the right shape for the caste that they belong to, but otherwise they're not shunned for their parent's mistake.

So they are becoming two different species then. cool concept!
So, putting it all together from what I have read, I would go with one of your sterility concepts, just because of the cloning being used to control the natural course of mutations along with them becoming two different species and all.

 

[Bramandin]

So they are becoming two different species then. cool concept!
So, putting it all together from what I have read, I would go with one of your sterility concepts, just because of the cloning being used to control the natural course of mutations along with them becoming two different species and all.

Could you rephrase? I can't work out what you are saying.

 

[Wayne Mack]

The difference between magic elves and techno-elves is probably akin to wizards vs muggles except that they became genetically distinct on the level of horses and zebras.

The two types of elf do not need to have a common ancestry. If they share some common characteristic (I'm not a big fan of using skin color as that characteristic), they may have been arbitrarily group together by others. Fish and whales appear similar, but are quite different, as are eels and snakes.

Even if one chooses to have a common ancestry, I don't think any detail would be needed to explain why they are not cross-fertile. The plant world bounds with similar looking plants that do not cross-pollinate.

I feel making magic elves and techno elves unable to have mixed children does not really need to be explained. Going into these types of details would likely detract from the overall story.

 

[Bramandin]

The two types of elf do not need to have a common ancestry. If they share some common characteristic (I'm not a big fan of using skin color as that characteristic), they may have been arbitrarily group together by others. Fish and whales appear similar, but are quite different, as are eels and snakes.

Even if one chooses to have a common ancestry, I don't think any detail would be needed to explain why they are not cross-fertile. The plant world bounds with similar looking plants that do not cross-pollinate.

I feel making magic elves and techno elves unable to have mixed children does not really need to be explained. Going into these types of details would likely detract from the overall story.

All my elves were going to be pale with horn-shape being the caste-marker, but then having the elves be pale with the humans being ambiguously brown also has unfortunate implications. Horn-shape still factors in with the high-caste warriors and the low-caste workers being almost the same dark shade, mid-caste intellectuals and low-caste entertainment are not as pale as magical elves but still lighter than humans.

One of the secondary characters is a zedonk with all of the unfortunate implications of half-orc. The two types of elves can have children, but those children are sterile. I'm just looking for a short way to describe that.

 

[THX1138]

Could you rephrase? I can't work out what you are saying.

Your wizard - muggle approach is the best explanation.

From a science view, magic elves breading the way nature intended. The techno elves seem to be doing both natural and cloning. But the more they clone, the more sterile they become because nature is being taken out of the equation. Less need for natural reproduction.

 

[Bramandin]

Your wizard - muggle approach is the best explanation.

From a science view, magic elves breading the way nature intended. The techno elves seem to be doing both natural and cloning. But the more they clone, the more sterile they become because nature is being taken out of the equation. Less need for natural reproduction.

With the direction I'm going, the techno-elves work to preserve their ability to reproduce naturally. "Clone" is a bit inaccurate since single-parent children are rare; they're more likely to have at least two if not three. Someone who is sterile but earned a slot in the artificial reproduction is likely to have his "clone" patched so that the child is not sterile. This is why there are no single-gender castes. They recognize that if they lose the technology, they're going to lose castes. They might lose their whole society if they let sterility run rampant.

 

[Wayne Mack]

The two types of elves can have children, but those children are sterile. I'm just looking for a short way to describe that.

I think you just did.

 

[DLCroix]

Since the first studies of the Rhesus factor it was known that consanguinity condemned the descendants to develop, among other diseases, cases of mongolism and with respect to the latter that their sterility and short life can only be explained by a mysterious "wisdom" that nature applies in said carnal unions; but, unless your elves also practiced that type of "consanguineous" unions, let's say, I don't see why they should present this sterility. If you want to do it, I don't see the problem either, unless you want to explain it as if it were a hard fiction novel where the keynote is that these kinds of explanations exist. Actually I think your story is fantasy, right? So my advice is not to complicate yourself. Just say that the children of the elves are barren and that's it.

 

[sknox]

This thread demonstrates my earlier statement. While quick questions do exist, they rarely lead to quick answers.

 

[THX1138]

Your answers are in your explanations, and that is all you need.
Your post seems to be you thinking out loud!
You can look at the response of others and read your own response as well. Like @Wayne Mack said, you answered yourself. And you also gave reasons to why.

You are doing great! Keep asking your questions and write your novel. I'll race you! But with your typing skills you already won, in truth 20 min for me to write this...... and counting...

 

[Bramandin]

Since the first studies of the Rhesus factor it was known that consanguinity condemned the descendants to develop, among other diseases, cases of mongolism and with respect to the latter that their sterility and short life can only be explained by a mysterious "wisdom" that nature applies in said carnal unions; but, unless your elves also practiced that type of "consanguineous" unions, let's say, I don't see why they should present this sterility. If you want to do it, I don't see the problem either, unless you want to explain it as if it were a hard fiction novel where the keynote is that these kinds of explanations exist. Actually I think your story is fantasy, right? So my advice is not to complicate yourself. Just say that the children of the elves are barren and that's it.

Pretty much only the elvish equivalents of zedonk are reliably sterile, though it also happens randomly.

Yeah, this is fantasy that I'm trying to be plausible about since one race seems more sci-fi. The "orcs" are completely magical as far as being transformed humans, but they're also not viable creatures.

This thread demonstrates my earlier statement. While quick questions do exist, they rarely lead to quick answers.

I thought I was just looking for a word, but between me being hard to understand and a bit of off-topicness, it became its own thread. At least I learned my lesson.

 

[sknox]

FWIW, I just copied this phrase from the OP
way to describe the genetic compatibility of two groups
and pasted it into Google and got what looked like good hits, including this fragment

individuals, varieties, or species that can cross-breed.

which, while more than a single word, sounds pretty much on point. Perhaps if you dig through the other hits, you might find a lone word that works for you.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I am shocked that I never heard of this guy:

Daedalus; or, Science and the future
by J. B. S. Haldane

Daedalus; or, Science and the future by J. B. S. Haldane

Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.

gutenberg.org

 

[sknox]

Given how many writers on how many subjects there have been over the past three thousand years or so, I'm shocked more when I *have* heard of someone. <grin>