Talking money

Make chasing a fair return for your effort an admirable goal - if not for you then for the next generation of writers who’ll be earning 5p a copy if this goes on.

Exactly. But I will emphasize "a fair return." Reasonable expectations is the key. If the goal is to work hard and eventually make a comfortable living writing full time—and not incidentally share the things we put so much effort and love into with as many other people as we can (or why publish at all, if that is not part of our motive?)—and if we understand that even that modest goal will take time and persistence, then I think we are more likely to be both successful and satisfied with the outcome of all our work. If the idea is that we'll write down our brilliant ideas, shoot them out to a few agents or publishers, and fame and fortune will inevitably follow and follow soon, the almost inevitable disappointment of such expectations is probably the leading cause of burn-out among writers and the reason so many give up before they've given it half a reasonable chance.

But it does make sense to believe we should be rewarded for our efforts. All down through the ages, artists of all kinds have expected to get paid. It's a comparatively modern thing the idea that we're supposed to do it solely for love, art for art's sake. Note that the people who expect us to write our books without hope of any financial reward are people who darn well expect to get paid for doing their jobs.
 
If I was writing fiction for money I'd be worried about writing something that isn't me (meaning it turns out crap) or finding it too difficult. So I think I'd have to be sure that I could do it before accepting.

When I read your comment about writing what will pay you, Jo, I thought "good." You've worked hard to put yourself in a position where that's possible.

Oh, come on, guys! How much effort do we put into writing? And yet we’re happy not to be paid! Or earn a pittance? That’s part of the reason why we don’t get paid - if we don’t value it why should anyone else.

Make chasing a fair return for your effort an admirable goal - if not for you then for the next generation of writers who’ll be earning 5p a copy if this goes on.
I'm amazed how many writing contests and markets there are that charge upwards of £15 a fee to submit. It's good if you win I guess, but there's no way I'd pay that much. Some of these places are making loads of money from writers paying the fees, which I don't think is fair. There are a lot of places taking advantage of writers that want to be published.
 
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There are other financial goals that make sense. For example, I just want to make enough money to cover my costs. That means a few grand U.S. per year, which seems pretty ambitious right now. Different people have different financial situations, so they can have different financial goals. ... this, just in case some folks were thinking we're talking and all-or-nothing sort of thing here.

Besides, Eddie says I can quit one of my night jobs after the baby comes. ;-)
 
Occasionally I consider sending Sir Edric review copies to people I know will be annoyed by it (right-on, politically correct, you-can't-say-that types). I haven't done it on the basis it'd be aggravating people intentionally to get them to generate "Rawr! Evil white man making wrongthink jokes!" publicity.

But that'd probably still be significantly helpful, if it worked, for increasing sales. And that in itself might be the problem. I am not flush with cash. Logan "Japanese suicide forest" Paul is.

I'd have a lot more money if I were a better writer, but perhaps even more if I were a better self-publicist, and I think (as you might've guessed) that's a problem. It's like when there was the instance of the whole media going gooey over 50 Shades. Lots of women bought it, read 20 pages and thought "Nah". But the sale was made.

Wish I could see some way around this but, beyond the gradual evolution of blogs and review sites, I can't really.
 
But it does make sense to believe we should be rewarded for our efforts. All down through the ages, artists of all kinds have expected to get paid. It's a comparatively modern thing the idea that we're supposed to do it solely for love, art for art's sake.

I don't think this can be emphasised enough. I see it with other people working in artistic fields - modelmakers, costume designers, cover artists and so on. There's this false idea that if you enjoyed making something, you don't deserve pay. Nobody says this to hedge fund managers, who probably have a pretty fun lifestyle if you like that sort of thing, or indeed to people in the construction industry. I rather suspect it's because most artists are non-unionised sole traders and often somewhat unworldly. I bet Leonardo didn't get this nonsense when he had Cesare Borgia as a patron. Although that probably brought problems of its own.
 
There's this false idea that if you enjoyed making something, you don't deserve pay. Nobody says this to hedge fund managers, who probably have a pretty fun lifestyle if you like that sort of thing, or indeed to people in the construction industry. I rather suspect it's because most artists are non-unionised sole traders and often somewhat unworldly.

There undoubtedly is an issue with consumers of art expecting to be able to get it for almost nothing, but there is another issue that would be there anyway, with novel-writing at least, which is massive oversupply in the market.

There must be wannabe hedge fund managers who don't get paid either, but they are not expected to do a load of work on spec and only then see if anyone wants it.
 
There undoubtedly is an issue with consumers of art expecting to be able to get it for almost nothing, but there is another issue that would be there anyway, with novel-writing at least, which is massive oversupply in the market.

There must be wannabe hedge fund managers who don't get paid either, but they are not expected to do a load of work on spec and only then see if anyone wants it.
This is the basic problem with the current model. Too many writers for too few readers. But it's not all doom and gloom. Games are in huge demand. License your world and story to Nintendo.... :D
 
Jo, unlikely to happen, but I was genuinely considering using an RPG Maker game (one's out for PS4 later this year) to make a Sir Edric videogame for marketing purposes.
 
I don't think this can be emphasised enough. I see it with other people working in artistic fields - modelmakers, costume designers, cover artists and so on. There's this false idea that if you enjoyed making something, you don't deserve pay. Nobody says this to hedge fund managers, who probably have a pretty fun lifestyle if you like that sort of thing, or indeed to people in the construction industry. I rather suspect it's because most artists are non-unionised sole traders and often somewhat unworldly. I bet Leonardo didn't get this nonsense when he had Cesare Borgia as a patron. Although that probably brought problems of its own.

Its not just artists tbf. Its every field where those paying the money believe they can pay less money and then try to justify it. Over in Ireland, Varadkar landed himself in a wee tangle the other day when he went and told some of Ireland's soldiers pretty much the same thing. Nurses, teachers... we know they don't get paid as much as they should, and often hear the same stuff about job satisfaction.


Should we be chasing better pay for authors, as authors? Yes.

Can we expect it anytime soon though? No. And as such, I think a writer who's not in a mental position where they're only happy if they're getting paid has set themselves up for some serious unhappiness. On grounds of self-care, I think that's a position to be cautious with.


Incidentally, did anyone see all the stuff about the Authors Income Survey?
 
Its not just artists tbf. Its every field where those paying the money believe they can pay less money and then try to justify it. Over in Ireland, Varadkar landed himself in a wee tangle the other day when he went and told some of Ireland's soldiers pretty much the same thing. Nurses, teachers... we know they don't get paid as much as they should, and often hear the same stuff about job satisfaction.


Should we be chasing better pay for authors, as authors? Yes.

Can we expect it anytime soon though? No. And as such, I think a writer who's not in a mental position where they're only happy if they're getting paid has set themselves up for some serious unhappiness. On grounds of self-care, I think that's a position to be cautious with.


Incidentally, did anyone see all the stuff about the Authors Income Survey?

Haven’t seen anything recently
 
Michael Sullivan did a post on it over at Reddit - in spoilers as it posts the whole thing:
Also linked to some other authors' takes in it

Author Incomes: Not Great, Now or Then


Author Income Surveys Are Misleading and Flawed—And Focus on the Wrong Message for Writers | Jane Friedman


edit: I did not know Redd

Interesting. I’d agree the stats are skewed - but there are still a majority of writers who earn nothing :(
 
Jo, unlikely to happen, but I was genuinely considering using an RPG Maker game (one's out for PS4 later this year) to make a Sir Edric videogame for marketing purposes.
Have you seen the free ones for PC/Mac/Linux? Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden (made with GameMaker: Studio) was so successful it spawned a sequel! RPGMaker is popular too.

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Alex, I haven't. But the RPGMaker I was looking at, even at discount price, would mean spending some cash and then a huge amount of time. Maybe I'll end up doing it, but to make financial sense it'd have to lead to sales. No idea if that'd happen.
 
Alex, I haven't. But the RPGMaker I was looking at, even at discount price, would mean spending some cash and then a huge amount of time. Maybe I'll end up doing it, but to make financial sense it'd have to lead to sales. No idea if that'd happen.
I had a plan to use Unity to make an Android game but even the basic ones need a huge amount of time, not least to learn how to programme them and make them work well across multiple devices. Haven't given up on it entirely though no plan to get stuck in anytime soon. Having chosen to be a writer, for better or worse, have decided to go for it 100% or not at all - currently doing the 100%, even though payment to date is pretty much not at all. At the end of the day it is both a judgement call and a question of much does it burn you inside to put words on a page?
 
@Scookey Unity have a lot of assets ready to be use, but sometimes is a pain in the ass to make them work together.
Anyway, making games is not for a single developer (not if you want to sell it and make money). I've tried that and at some point you are going to hit a brick wall. Here is mine: Sara Donhildi Adventures - Action RPG a project that slowly faded away. I still want to finish it, but lately I haven't found enough time.
 
This is the basic problem with the current model. Too many writers for too few readers. But it's not all doom and gloom. Games are in huge demand. License your world and story to Nintendo.... :D

Do you know how to go about approaching companies like Nintendo, Jo? I retained the movie and game rights to my novel and it's something that's been bubbling along in my mind for a long time.
 

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