Doctor Who (37) 11.03: Rosa

[Dave]

Even people today who are actually racist, comparing their behaviour to that, would probably watch this episode and think, 'well, that's not me.' An episode like Oxygen handled this so, so much better with the Dahh-Ren character.

Sorry, I think I must be misunderstanding you. Is your point that people who are genuinely racist will identify more with their prejudice towards a blue alien on a spaceship with zombies than they would with real people in a real historical setting?

 

[Anthoney]

They used Josh Bowman as the time traveling bad guy. He was the time traveling Jack the Ripper in last seasons Time After Time TV series.

 

[Paradox 99]

No, Dave. There are folks out there that are properly racist, who aren't going to be moved by a message in a TV programme. I guess I'm thinking about conscientious people that think they aren't racist, or have behaved in ways that they didn't realize was racist, and need challenging. Using a real historical situation like the one on display in today's episode is something that everyone should know, even children. Frankly it's a bit condescending to use that as a message to say 'racism is wrong'. That's what I meant earlier by trite. The blue alien is a bit more thought provoking, makes people ponder it a bit more deeply, I think.

 

[Dave]

Well, my (admittedly completely unscientific but random) sample of Tweets that I read earlier said that this message was indeed being received by children for the very first time. Some had heard of Rosa Parks and heard the story, but didn't think it was a true story. Since I think they were writing for that age group (even if the surveys do say it is most watched by 16-30 year-olds) we will just have to agree to disagree. I won't go as far as to say it was the best Dr Who episode ever (which some are actually saying) but I didn't consider it to be trite. Also, there were a number of words in that script that you never ever hear on the BBC anymore.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I've seen several people saying they had to explain segregation and racism to their children, and what a good sign that is for the future. On the one hand, it feels dangerous that history is being forgotten so quickly, but on the other hand, there's a great deal of horrible, bigoted history that most of us grow up unaware of (thinking far more distant past there), because it's so unthinkable to us. So there's that.

I didn't consider it to be "the best episode ever", but it was good -- it made me laugh and cry, and that's all you can ask.

Not sure that its being in a Doctor Who episode is going to convince any kids that the Rosa Parks story is real. Although it was very Quantum Leap, yes, and that show taught me a fair amount of history, so....

 

[Matteo]

I missed that - we always turn over before the "next week" bit comes up.

If that turns out to be the case, then I agree with you.

When I wrote the above (in response to TIEN's Quantum Leap comment) I also wrote something along the lines of "Instead, they may do a 'reverse Quantum Leap' - stopping someone, presumably a time traveller, from stopping/affecting Rosa Parks". But before hitting reply, I deleted it as I thought it was too weak to be credible...

And so we had a "Hey look at us; not only are we not sexist, we're also not racist!" episode. It was very preachy and very poor. I appreciate it is ostensibly a kids show but still. We even had a Well kids, what did we learn today? segment at the end (almost).

The bad guy had almost no background story (we watched a recording of the show and I thought I'd missed a pre-credits sequence) other than he was a racist from the 79th century who had killed 2000 people. The neutral inhibitor prevented him from harming anyone but did allow him to blast people into a different time zone?

Ryan had to be held back from thumping the guy who slapped him but later said he stopped himself because his gran told him violence never solves anything.

There were a few odd edits (e.g. the encounter in the warehouse when they found the briefcase/to outside, and the scene before/to the motel); I thought the recording had skipped on the first and my wife said what happened there? on the second.

Ryan figured out how to use the temporal disruptor (really?) and there was no comeback from the Doctor when he used it - though maybe this Doctor is more ruthless?

One good thing was more focus on the Doctor so we got to see more of Jodie's acting talent. And she's good; the confrontation with Crasko being a case in point. That super confident, I know how good I am attitude that the Doctor has really came through. I just hope she has better material than this to work with in subsequent episodes. I also think they should ditch Ryan and Graham (back on Earth in their time) and stick with Yasmin as Mandip Gill is the better actress of the three. In addition, not only would also be a interesting dynamic having a female Dr Who and female companion - not sure there's ever been a series (or several episodes) when the Doctor has had a male (obviously) companion only - but it would also allow for more focus on the Doctor.

Finally, was there a Quantum Leap reference?

- And so Doctor Beckett finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong.
- (Crasko) This is when it all started to go wrong. (Doctor) And you're hoping to put things right?

Overall, good stuff from Jodie but very disappointed.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Didn't watch it (had a very good F1 race to watch instead), but, TDZ, if they're filling in things that may be forgotten and shouldn't be I hope they visit the Soviet Union during a Terror.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

A gentle request.

...

PS: TEIN, not having a go at you, and was happy to echo your concerns since you mentioned this episode in the Episode 2 thread, but would prefer not knowing what is coming up.

No problem, but you're probably going to hate this post

So lets deal with the elephant in the TARDIS.

As a plot subject it was crap. In fairness, that's true of most time travelling SF, but this one could have easily been consigned to the red bin when it was first suggested. As the story line itself suggested, you only have to do a small thing to affect all of history. Apparently this event would never have actually happened if not for the machinations of five characters from the future. I could rant on, but personally I thought it was trite, badly acted and poorly conceived. Hey personal opinions and all that.

So to the meaty bits.

First it would seem we have a new villain. A totally useless (can't hurt people he's been neutered) wet Kerr Avon figure who's going to be popping up from now on till the end of time. Basically, I think we've had a tase of every other episode of Who we're ever going to see from now on. Who arrives, baddy is up to no good, or turns up to try to interfere in an event, and Who, stands there giving it loud saying things like

"I'm going to stop you, so get back in you're (clock, spaceship, bucket, whirligig, or whatever) Cos I protect these people".

Tedious repetitive unimaginative re-writes of the the same old crap. (IMO)

We also now see the need for the three companions. Plot fixers as we can now call them.

The problem here is the classic writers with no investment in the series and no sense of what goes before. Or any idea of the "world" of Who.

Just in case it needs clarifying. Who is a Time Lord. One from a planet of time travelling people that guarded their secrets and made sure they were the only ones to get the tech. If someone can just buy a strap on and whizz about through time and space (No black hole required) as though it was a TARDIS, then where does that leave those that need a pretty blue box and a sonic screw-driver. Who doesn't need someone that comes up with ideas for stories about time travel - BAck to the future does that. Who needs consistancey. It's not going to have any credibilty if next week, Graham, can't run twenty feet without getting breathless.
I mean, this wasn't even consistance within one sentence. Baddy sees a tardis and tries to 'affect' it. If he knows it's a TARDIS then he should know he has no chance of moving it with his toy time-turner (which by the way is also a TARDIS - cos it moves him through time and space)

I mean, a bloke goes fishing miles away from anywhere (in what looks like the Yorkshire Dales), and two people with no money and no transport, track him down and 'persuade' him to go back because his bus (well actually not even HIS bus) is going out of the depot without him. I may have a poor view of the average American redneck, but really? Are they so dedicated to their work? Taxi driver maybe (but only his taxi).

Meanwhile Who confronts the baddy High Noon style. Who, in the form of Gary Cooper, cuts the baddy down with her "quick on the draw" suitcase. A masterpiece of writing IMO.

And then the old :-

"This town ain't big enough for the two of us, Why don't you piss of now and prepare yourself for episode five"?

This all sets up the situation, whereby the only reason Parks does what she does is because (as I intonated originally) Who and her (handy) three companions are on the bus taking up the very seats the WHITE person needed.

It's like magic. A sublime piece of scriptwriting. Who but a genius could have thought that up.

-----

So, previous posts have mentions the positive fallout of the episode. How children nowadays don't know what happened back then. How they owe a lot to figures from the past and this will get them talking in the playground, and yes they will get a taste of all those new words they(should) rarely hear.

TOSH.

If that was the justification of the episode, then surely a info documentary play was the way to go.

With true facts and actual events.

If people want to educate their children about the bigoted nature of the world (let's not fool ourselves -even as it is now) then when they're old enough, let them watch a significant piece of film

"Hidden Figures"

As it is we now have a tranche of young children that, for a long time, will believe that civil rights are all thanks to Iron man and Thor, with the help of Batman and the Swamp Monster.

(If you get my drift)

I'm guessing by now you realise, I wasn't impressed.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

That’s taking Avon’s name in vain, frankly. I thought the sf elements were weak and the pc message obvious. But I also thought the bit on the bus at the end, waiting to see what happened, was gripping and well done. But, yeah - writing needs to step things up and they need to remember the sf.

 

[Dan Jones]

Watching it with my 5YO, it was clear that from her perspective the purity of the story wasn't as apparent. I was reticent to start explaining racial politics to her, as she's still at a colourblind age (her mates are just her mates, they don't come with labels), and I don't yet want to, er, colour that with some of the more unsavoury elements of social history. Not yet, anyway. So I offered vanilla explanations about what was happening and why the people were being mean to the nice lady without digging around the bones of it. It was the first time I really had a feeling of wanting to protect my child's innocence – no way I'd have predicted I'd be feeling that in an episode of Doctor Who!

Jo's probably right that this is probably better received at kids from 10 years and above I suppose, who may be more aware of this stuff.

As for the episode itself, I thought the villain was a bit naff to be honest and there wasn't much in the way of SF content. Whoever earlier said it felt more like Quantum Leap was spot on. But the main cast are gelling nicely and Jodie Whitaker is very much feeling like a "Doctor" now.

Just a logic point: I know it's a 40-minute story and everything has to be kinda broad-brush to make it fit, but if every cracker muthaf*%!@* was as vile as they were towards the black (and Mexican! loved that bit) characters, how did they achieve a mass protest of the buses the day after the Parks incident?* There must have been some sympathy towards the plight of the black population, even if people hadn't actually acted upon it (yes, I know, apocryphal Burke etc).

*PS I always think of that brilliant Maggie line from Extras about the Rosa Parks incident. "It didn't happen in a park, it happened on a bus."

 

[AlexH]

The blue alien is a bit more thought provoking, makes people ponder it a bit more deeply, I think.

But how many children see a blue alien walking down the street?

I also think @Dan Jones' point is a very good one. I remember a study that asked children to point out differences between friends. Not one of them mentioned skin colour.

 

[Ursa major]

If someone can just buy a strap on and whizz about through time and space (No black hole required) as though it was a TARDIS, then where does that leave those that need a pretty blue box and a sonic screw-driver.

This wasn't the first appearance of someone in Doctor Who who was able to time travel with the aid of something strapped to their wrist. I seem to recall River Song used a Vortex manipulator for this purpose.

 

[Anthoney]

If someone can just buy a strap on and whizz about through time and space (No black hole required) as though it was a TARDIS, then where does that leave those that need a pretty blue box and a sonic screw-driver.

I seem to recall River Song used a Vortex manipulator

Captain Jack had one. Jack's "friend" John Hart (Spike from Buffy) had one. the Family of Blood had one and all the Time Agents. Plus Missy and River. Not counting the Time Lords stuff the Vortex manipulator is the most common method of time travel.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

@Anthoney

Fair points all.

So why can't we have ugraded versions for our hero?

Think of the carbon footprint - dragging a black hole across the universe, not to mention all that junk s/he carts about with him/her.

You know, the TARDIS zoo, the life-size copy of Gaullyprey and the dead carcases of all the companions and dead doctors, plus their wardrobes.

If we're in the business of "educating the young, surely there's a message the BBC could be putting out there too.

(wouldn't need a key either.)

 

[Anthoney]

Matt Smith's Doctor used one a lot during the Pandorica story. In other Who related material (Comics, novels) they stated that "over use" (however much that is) of a Vortex Manipulator can be addictive and then destructive.

 

[HoopyFrood]

I'm easily pleased when it comes to Doctor Who so I'm enjoying Jodie, I'm enjoying all three companions (I like that it feels like a team effort and that they're active and involved, not just running around barely keeping up), and I've enjoyed all three episodes so far.

I really liked last night, that it wasn't all dinosaurs on a spaceship, but more time-travel shenanigans and instead of don't go messing time up, we've got to save time. Plus that it was more grounded and slower and involving deeper issues. Glad they didn't pull any punches with the racism, and that while today is better it's still not ideal. And I didn't mind that there wasn't much more to the bad guy other than he was simply a white supremacist time traveller.

What's also nice is that my mum has started watching it ('nothing else on at that time') and usually her reaction is simply 'it's too silly' but she said she actually really enjoyed last night's episode, so that's a win for it.

After it finished I got an immediate feeling of I'd like to watch that again, which, while I do always enjoy Doctor Who as said, it's been a fair old while since I've felt like that, so that's good, too.

Doctor Who is literally the only reason I keep paying the TV licence (seriously) and I'm still loving it.

 

[Anthoney]

I keep paying the TV licence

Out of curiosity and because we don't have such a tax in the US, how much does a TV licence cost?

 

[BAYLOR]

Overall, I thought it was a good historical episode.

 

[farntfar]

Just a logic point: I know it's a 40-minute story and everything has to be kinda broad-brush to make it fit, but if every cracker muthaf*%!@* was as vile as they were towards the black (and Mexican! loved that bit) characters, how did they achieve a mass protest of the buses the day after the Parks incident?

The mass protest was carried mostly by the black population of Montgomery following a hurriedly produced leaflet push "asking every Negro to stay off the buses Monday in protest of the arrest and trial ... You can afford to stay out of school for one day. If you work, take a cab, or walk. But please, children and grown-ups, don't ride the bus at all on Monday. Please stay off the buses Monday"

 

[HoopyFrood]

Out of curiosity and because we don't have such a tax in the US, how much does a TV licence cost?

£150 a year.