Being offended by the term 'fair'

[glutton]

Are there many readers out there who are offended by the use of this term with regard to women? I just ran across this for the first time and I was pretty surprised, especially in the context... I used the term in a summary of my writing style, which described how I favor 'hardcore warriors of the fairer gender' ie. girls who defeat dozens of large armored men at once and survive/keep fighting with multiple wounds that would each kill a normal man, and I was using 'fair' for 1) irony 2) to create an archaic feel that calls to mind the heroes and legends of old and 3) just to sound more interesting than saying 'hardcore female warriors'. What do you think, is the term 'fair' that offensive, basically to the point of being a racial slur, or have I just encountered overly PC zealotry as I'm inclined to believe?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I wouldn't personally get my fair knickers in a twist about it, but it is a bit sexist, in my opinion, and more importantly, outdated, smacking a bit of Xena.

I also, (oh, dear, now I'm thinking about it I am getting a little more irked about it), think it falls into one of the worst fantasy tropes out there, and a rather old fashioned view of women which can often exist in fantasy. (the women are the fairer sex, and then suddenly we have a few who can fight, and are feisty, or deadly, but not what women normally are... we have front line female soldiers now, surely we don't really believe that about women anymore?)

So, anyway, as someone who would come down on the feminist side of the argument, but not the militant side, yes, the term would - not offend me, offence is too easy to take to be worthwhile - but certainly make me think twice about reading on. Sorry.

Ps, it also seems quite a round about way of describing it. Is this for a synopsis or something? If so, maybe plain is better? I don't know for sure, but thought I'd throw it out.

 

[glutton]

Ps, it also seems quite a round about way of describing it. Is this for a synopsis or something? If so, maybe plain is better? I don't know for sure, but thought I'd throw it out.

I used it in a post on a forum when describing my work, it's variant of the phrase 'hardcore warriors of the fairer sex' in my bio that use in all my magazine publications.

And yeah I know it's outdated, part of why I used it... as for the old fashioned view of women it implies, it fits most of the settings my stories take place in.

Also not to be sexist, but modern soldiers carry guns and other advanced weapons that don't require as much physical strength to use as melee weapons... certainly there are/were some women who could hold their own against men in a close up fight, but it would take a more exceptional woman to be a 'top tier' warrior as a front line fighter with a less advanced technology level. Since most of the characters I'm referring to aren't simply able to be a soldier which an average man could be, but among the most feared elite warriors in toe to toe combat who are physically intimidating to an extreme degree. So even if the settings the stories took place in had modern sensibilities, the heroines would still be extraordinary... like a woman in real life who could beat up the UFC champions.

 

[Gordian Knot]

You actually set yourself up with a double whammy! Describing the warriors as the "fairer gender", then immediately defining them as "girls".

Unless the characters are indeed teens, I expect there was more outrage over calling them girls than the fairer gender. Though that latter term also sounds just weird.

Actually, aside from any heat you got from a few of the words, it feels to me like the entire sentence is awkwardly structured.....

I'm not going to comment on the isotrope itself, as it has a long an honored, as well as dishonored, history in fantasy.

 

[glutton]

You actually set yourself up with a double whammy! Describing the warriors as the "fairer gender", then immediately defining them as "girls".

Unless the characters are indeed teens, I expect there was more outrage over calling them girls than the fairer gender. Though that latter term also sounds just weird.

I didn't actually call them girls in the description, although some of them are indeed teens, I just use it in this post as a broader term for females/women.

Normally I use 'hardcore warriors of the fairer sex' which is less awkward, but tried (poorly) to inject variety this time around, and the rest of that description isn't copied from the one that was found offensive.

 

[Abernovo]

You say that you're using it as an outdated term, but then you join it to a very modern word - 'hardcore'. So you're you're not being consistent, which might be a problem.

Sorry, but I think you're digging yourself into a hole with this one. If you had a character, especially an old, patriarchal character from a bygone age, you could probably get away with it. Using it yourself gives the impression (incorrectly, I'm sure) that you might next pat the ladies on their shoulders and tell them not to worry their pretty little heads about such things.

As Gord, points out, there are easier ways of saying it. 'Hardcore female warriors', for instance, which removes any appearance of condescension. Although then I have visions of the whole overused Xena/Buffy trope, as per springs comment. Which is a whole other discussion.

 

[The Judge]

1) The problem with irony is that it isn't easy to recognise in print. Accordingly, a person may be speaking of the fairer sex in metaphorical inverted commas and with a knowing look in his eye to show how modern/post-modern/whatever he is, but readers will think he's an antediluvian sexist prat.

2) The expression is not an archaism, so if you're wanting to give a feel of old legends etc, then this is not something you should be using anyway. The concept of "the fair sex" to define women as a group, as opposed to speaking of an individual fair (ie beautful) woman probably dates to no earlier than the 1800s, and was taken up with gusto by the Victorians and their ideas of fragrant fainting ladies of the upper classes.**

3) I can't see how "fairer gender" is more interesting than "female", not least as it's being mealy-mouthed in using the word "gender" itself. It is, however, patriarchal and demeaning.

"Fair" isn't offensive as a word. How it's used, however, can be evidence of crass stupidity and ignorance in which case it rightly deserves opprobrium. Since you're getting some flak for the tag-line you're using, this might be a time to re-think it.


NB: just realised this is posted in GBD. I think it's more of a GWD issue, so I'll move it over.


** EDIT: Just checking my gut feeling on this, and I've come across a citation which refers to its use in 1665, but it's heyday, I'm sure, would still have been 1800-1950s, not earlier.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Would you describe men as "hardcore warriors of the harder sex"?

If not, why not?

 

[steve12553]

When writing Fantasy doesn't using modern politically correct term take away from the quality of the writing? Writing PC in any context but the "here and now" would really sound like crap to me. If you write and you offend no one will anybody remember your writing? Offend everyone!

 

[glutton]

Would you describe men as "hardcore warriors of the harder sex"?

If not, why not?

Because it implies something about something 'down there'?

 

[Kissmequick]

Would you describe men as "hardcore warriors of the harder sex"?

If not, why not?

Only in erotica So, glutton, what does 'fairer' mean to you? Does it imply something? Think about it.

Offended? No. Irked? Made an assumption that there's going to be some eyerolling on my behalf when I read the story? Put me off reading it? Yup.

If you want to go for an archaic feel, as said upthread, it all needs to be archaic or it doesn't fit - and you could find a way to say it with the right feel without making me roll my eyes.

When writing Fantasy doesn't using modern politically correct term take away from the quality of the writing?

That's going to depend entirely on the book - some have a more modern feel than others

Writing PC in any context but the "here and now" would really sound like crap to me.

So, trying not to be sexist is crap? Okay....

If you write and you offend no one will anybody remember your writing? Offend everyone!

There's a difference between knowing what you're writing may offend some people, and blindly forging ahead with something that will pee off a part of your reader base "just because I want to", especially when there are plenty of other ways glutton could invoke the feeling he wants without doing so.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I think Springs summed up my entire view on the subject and I am so going to retain the fair knickers comment for use in a story now. I am loving the idea of the exchange and I know exactly which character it belongs to.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think Springs summed up my entire view on the subject and I am so going to retain the fair knickers comment for use in a story now. I am loving the idea of the exchange and I know exactly which character it belongs to.

Hands it to Anya, giftwrapped; I have no use for it, anywhere. Do send me a copy of where it goes in, though, I am muchly intrigued.

 

[Mouse]

What TJ said.

Doesn't particularly offend me, I just think it sounds daft. What's wrong with hardcore female warriors? (BTW, I don't like 'hardcore' either because it makes me think it's pornography).

 

[HareBrain]

I have two female characters of about 25. I know I should refer to them as "women" but somehow that makes them feel too old, and "young women" feels too clumsy. I try not to have to refer to them using that kind of term at all, but in a couple of places I can't seem to escape it. So I use "girl" and then angst about it. But if you shout at me loud enough I might rethink.

 

[Gordian Knot]

Because it implies something about something 'down there'?

Now THAT was funny! lolololol.

 

[Mouse]

I have two female characters of about 25. I know I should refer to them as "women" but somehow that makes them feel too old, and "young women" feels too clumsy. I try not to have to refer to them using that kind of term at all, but in a couple of places I can't seem to escape it. So I use "girl" and then angst about it. But if you shout at me loud enough I might rethink.

See, 'girl' doesn't bother me in the slightest. Until quite recently, it hadn't even occurred to me that some people might be offended by it. I mentioned something to a friend and she went off on a rant about how much she hates 'girl.'

 

[Gordian Knot]

Glutton said "What do you think, is the term 'fair' that offensive, basically to the point of being a racial slur, or have I just encountered overly PC zealotry as I'm inclined to believe?"

One other thought. Remember the Golden Rule. Well, it's not THE Golden Rule, but it IS one of the other Golden Rules.

Namely target your market. If you are getting flack from people who you don't think would be inclined to read your stuff anyway, I would give it much less credence.

Second other thought. Even if you're characters hark back to a different era like, say, Red Sonja, you are still writing to today's audience. Using out of date terminology is not going to create a nostalgia feel. It simply is going to baffle people.

Hardcore female warriors translates in today's language as Kick-Ass Babes. That is just a simple example, but you see what I mean.

Is that going to offend the offended just as much. Absolutely! But again, I don't think those people are your target audience anyway.

 

[prizzley]

'hardcore warriors of the fairer gender'

I hate political correctness. Some people will take offence at anything. Ignore them. But this kind of wording will a) make me laugh and wonder what you've been reading; b) cause your more sensitive readers to throw your writing away. I suggest you use normal speak.

 

[Ursa major]

You actually set yourself up with a double whammy!

Actually, as there's a built-in double whammy with the word fair (which has other, non-gender-based connotations, ones in which Requires Hate might be more interested), this must be at least a triple whammy.