Are women writers more explicit?

[Brian G Turner]

After recent conversations about "mommy porn" here it led me to wondering - are women writers generally more explicit about sex than male writers? Or is it simply the way they write about it?

I'm thinking especially about writers such as Jean Auel or Anne Rice.

Maybe I don't read enough, but I can't think of reading similarly racy adult scenes from a male author, certainly not with the same impact anyway.

Possibly because male protagonists are simply interested in the "act", whereas in the instance of Jean Auel, for Ayla sex as a weapon or for emotional bonding was a more integral part of her character and plot?

 

[Vertigo]

Well I must admit, after the first couple, I just skipped all Jean Auel's sex scenes I found them gratuitous; completely unnecessary. And I did the same with those of male author Richard Morgan who also writes very explicit (and also largely gratuitous) sex scenes. I'm no prude but I just found them out of place in the context of the rest of the book.

 

[reiver33]

I've found that groups of women in conversation tend to be far more explicit than their male counterparts (I’ve always had more female friends and have been an ‘honorary female’ on occasion.).

Male sexual expression is of the type; 'Look at the (body part) on her', but it’s all superficial.

Women discuss men in detail, and they make comparisons.

Therefore I don't see why it should be any different in print.

 

[Coragem]

Judging by my wife's reading matter, they're more explicit!

Novels written by women for women (making up a huge part of the market) tend to foreground romance (or a woman's fantasy view of romance), and foregrounding romance is surely likely to result in some explicit stuff.

On the other hand, my mind jumps to Richard Morgan's sweaty, multi- (multi!) orgasmic sex scenes. But those certainly seem to me like a man's take. E.g., in Broken Angels, sex in a sort of virtual reality that accentuates all the woman's curvy attributes!

Coragem.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

One possibility is that generally when male writers are explicit they go all the way (as it were) and write pornography.

Certainly there is a demand, among male readers, for pornography.

 

[hopewrites]

Its definitely an interesting thought. Studies have shown that sex is more intellectual than physical, for women, so intellectualizing it into writing would be nothing more than projecting onto page what we project into our bodies. Intent would be the same, only the language would be different (words and sentences rather than nerves and muscles.)

So I can see how it would be easier for women to write explicitly without being explicitly explicit... [too much repetition there]

but i'm more than willing to be wrong, I tend to avoid it where unnecessary in my writing any more. too many really good fantasies ruin the real thing. probably because its perfectualized (is that a word?) in writing and noting in life (thank goodness) is perfect.

 

[Erin99]

Remember, however, that there will always be exceptions to generalisations. I'd be averse to writing explicit sex scenes unless it was absolutely vital to the plot/character. I think describing unexpected things during such scenes - the heat of the sun, the feel of grass, the silence of the evening, tiny gasps, etc - can be far more effective than writing about every little detail going on, which can get tiresome and clichéd.

 

[Mouse]

I think it's about even isn't it? Although, if I think of the books I own, the ones with more sex scenes in are written by men. Actually... I don't think any of the books I own written by female authors have any sex scenes in them. (Oh wait, does Robin Hobb do any?!)

 

[Anne Lyle]

Hmm, I'm probably not a good sample, but the most explicit non-erotica book I own is almost certainly The Steel Remains.

I don't write explicit as in anatomically graphic, but there's probably more on-the-page sex in my work than in the majority of fantasy novels. It just feels like it fits the grimy, bawdy Elizabethan world

 

[Brian G Turner]

All I remember from AoS was a bit of kissing.

 

[Anne Lyle]

There's one very brief sex scene (only a paragraph), and another that's overheard by a third party. Oh, and a third, about-to-happen sex scene that fades to black very early in the proceedings.

I'm thinking more of Book 2, which has at least three full sex scenes

 

[Vertigo]

Interesting and relevant piece on the Today Programme on Radio 4 this morning. You can access the programme here http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/player/b01kblt9 (if I've got that right) the short (less than 10 minute) is about 2 hours 36 minutes into the 3 hour programme. It is, of course, on the back of the 50 Shades of Grey debate. It is also really quite funny they certainly have a few laughs.

Justin Webb is speaking to John Banville and Rachel Johnson. Banville has been praised for achieving good writing about sex in his latest novel, Ancient Light, and Rachel Johnson's book Shire Hell was the winner of the 'Bad Sex in Fiction Award' in 2008 (I never knew their was such a thing it is an award from the Literary Review http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/badsex_11_08.html).

Some comments/highlights from the conversation:

Banville: Martin Amis is right when he says the act itself is impossible to write about. Simply impossible. I'm not quite sure why but it can't be done. I think it's because what people feel they are doing is so discontinuous with what they are actually doing. The spectacle of sex is never very dignified but when you are engaged in it it seems transcendentally sublime. And it is impossible to catch that.

Banville: A person who sets out to write an erotic book is writing with a particular purpose in mind which is to excite.

Johnson: The act is in itself indescribable. What Banville's book does is convey the authenticity of what two people are feeling and I think this is incredibly different from pornography which offers the spectacle of sex, whereas literary fiction really can convey the intimacy and gets inside the peoples heads rather than describing the actual physical callisthenics (I like that word use!) of the act. You have to differentiate between literary fiction which talks about sec in the context of the character and something like 50 Shades of Grey, which I haven't really read, which is really more of a sex aid... hailed as a way of avoiding marital bed death (great phrase that one!).

Banville: I'm never quite sure what 'bad sex' is. I'm not sure that I've ever had any bad sex; it's always seemed to me wonderful. I've always felt incredibly lucky that a woman will consent to engage with me in this extraordinary act. One doesn't setout to write about sex. Sex in a book arises from the situation, from the characters, from the plot. It's not something you set out to do; it would go wrong it wouldn't work.

Johnson: It's the attempt to render this sex on the page that can affront the reader... and the Bad Sex in Fiction prize was originated by Auberon Waugh (?) who said we don't need sex in novels. The insertion of a sex scene is almost always redundant and can ruin an otherwise quite sound book. However, I think you (Banville) have done it, but you argue that it's not really a sex scene and I agree. You have to let the reader do the work (?!!?) for a sex scene to work in a book and that's your genious with this book.

Banville: The point about the erotic is that it always tends towards love, it always tries to be more than just the physical. When you are finished in bed you are left with the person and you have to start trying to find out about that person. The erotic is not concentrated enough. This is why most erotic books are not true and they're not honest, except Story of O which I think is the most successful erotic book but that is because the woman has power.

Final comment from Johnson: ... because sex sells books.

Apologies for any bad bits of transcription. It is very difficult when the iplayer audio resolution is only down to about a minute so it's very difficult to skip back just a sentence or two to check!

 

[James Coote]

Banville: I'm never quite sure what 'bad sex' is. I'm not sure that I've ever had any bad sex; it's always seemed to me wonderful....

Banville: ...... When you are finished in bed you are left with the person and you have to start trying to find out about that person.

Heh, I'm starting to build up a picture of Banville.

The point about bad sex, is that there are on the one hand, badly written sex scenes, that just make you cringe. I believe that is what the award is for.

On the other hand, there is sex that leaves you feeling unfulfilled. Where one or both partners were just not very good at it. In the same way as a stand up comedian who just isn't very funny.

I suspect men rarely have a bad experience of sex, whether or not they're any good at it. They certainly won't admit to it

 

[Vertigo]

Heh, I'm starting to build up a picture of Banville.

The point about bad sex, is that there are on the one hand, badly written sex scenes, that just make you cringe. I believe that is what the award is for.

The award was not given to Banville, but Johnson, Banville is the one that had praise for his rendering of sex in Ancient Lives.

Also, to be fair, I think the context of that second comment (not very well transcribed by me) was not referring to actually finishing having sex, but rather finishing writing about the actual sex.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Of course there is that long sex scene on Dani's wedding night in ASOFAI, which was not written by a woman writer.

I remember ... oh, forty years ago ... when most fantasy was written by men and a lot of it was pretty much sword-and-sorcery, if there was a woman in the story at all, usually she was just there for sex, really. Most of those books were far from explicit, although the author made it clear that the hero was heroic in bed as well as battle. Basically, Jondalar except that you didn't get to see his his mighty feats in bed.

Sometimes, though, the sex was explicit. There was one series, I wish I could remember the writer, in which the hero and his love interest, being forced to go their separate ways for most of the story, each had numerous sex scenes throughout the series, and I remember them as pretty explicit. The one that stays in my mind is of the heroine having sex with a non-human character who ... um, was equipped twice over. The scene went into some detail about how he was able to employ all that equipment at the same time. The series was definitely written by a male writer, but I can't remember his name. Maybe I will in a day or two when I'm thinking about something else entirely.

 

[Anne Lyle]

That doesn't ring any bells - though I do remember there being a couple of pretty explicit human-alien relationships (one involving a human female, one a male) in Majipoor Chronicles by Robert Silverberg.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, it wasn't Silverberg. I'd have remembered if it was someone as famous as Silverberg.

Although — who knows? — the name could have been a pseudonym. In which case it could have been just about any writer of that generation.

Edit -- I just did some Googling. It appears that the series was War of the Powers by Robert Vardeman and Victor Milan. Not just the sex with the alien, but a few other features of the quest sound familiar

I could have sworn that it was a single author.
.
.
.

 

[rune]

I think the fantasy novels I have with the most sex in were written by women. I woulnt say they were all well written scenes either. Some were more explicit than others. I think though I agree there has to be less crudness for a woman. Perhaps we have better imaginations than men - LOL
Ive heard some female friends mention that well written sex scenes can be gratifying (well thats the best word I could think of to use and keep this clean). So perhaps that is why so many like romantic fantasy or just romantic novels.
Trouble is, finding the well written ones....

 

[Galacticdefender]

I just don't like writing sex scenes. I really don't see how it's necesarry to a story, and I've only come across one or two occasions where it was implied. Also between two mammalian aliens. That would've been odd to write to say the least. I generally like it better when the graphic details are spared, the characters say what they are going to say, and then "fade to black".

 

[Anne Lyle]

It depends on the story, and the characters. If it doesn't add anything, I agree you should fade to black, otherwise it becomes pornography (or at least erotica). I've done that with in my first book with a casual encounter that has no further relevance to the story.

The sex scenes in my books are never primarily about the sex - the sex is just the background activity to an important story development or bit of characterisation, same as any other activity the characters might engage in together. This is one reason I don't write anatomically explicit sex scenes - that part of it isn't relevant to my purpose in writing the scene.

Of course if you don't like writing them, it's probably best not to try!