I have suspicions my Beta readers are not as objective as they say...

[Danrama]

I am wondering how to go about finding honest Beta readers. I had three good ones, from different demographics, while I wrote my first novel and it helped massively in the process. Additionally, they were useful when the substantive edit was finished. So now my copy edit is finished and I am sending my ms to agents, I wonder if perhaps I should have endeavored to discover more beta readers?

Where are they all? perhaps my 'polished' ms isn't as sparkling as my editor and my beta readers led me to believe.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Three ways:

Find a local writing critique group in your area. I'm sure they are around, just a matter of finding them. I recently joined up with a writing group and now have 6 potential new beta readers who also write fantasy.

The other way is to become an active member here or on other online writing communities. Start posting on the forums and making friends. When you get 30 posts, start putting up critiques - don't go overboard though, you have to be fair about your requests for help (other people need help too). Once you make some friends, you might be able to organise ms swaps through PMs, if anyone is interested.

Join Critters, or similar sites.

 

[Bowler1]

As per WP. Your mates are useful for a quick read and feedback but having other writers go over your work is far more constructive. If you write fanstasy and SciFi you've come to the right place for additional help.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

My advice is "never use family or friends!"

 

[AnyaKimlin]

My advice is "never use family or friends!"

I agree mine never have anything nice to say about my work.

My less constructive beta readers were also useful in that they read the whole 100K in a night. That told me it couldn't be that bad lol

 

[The Judge]

Hi. As Warren says, writing groups are the thing, whether in person or on-line. Critiques here can help you with snippets as and when you hit 30 counted posts, but we have a limit per thread of 1500 words and we suggest that it's best not to put too many threads up, since this is an open forum and posting umpteen thousand words of your work here might be reckoned as publishing it as and when an agent starts asking questions.

Meanwhile, I think this is more a GWD matter than one for Publishing, so I'm moving it over.

 

[Peter Graham]

I am wondering how to go about finding honest Beta readers.

I don't know how you would find them, but I think I know who you should be looking for. Find people who can write. They don't have to be published or even aspiring novelists, but they do have to understand the mechanics of writing. You wouldn't want someone who can't read a map to give you directions through Paris on an August saturday, so why would you want betas from anyone who can't write coherent sentences?

In no particular order, I would only actively seek betas from:-

1. People whom I believe to be good fiction writers (published or not).

2. Good non-fiction writers who still write creatively - playwrights, poets etc.

3. People with English degrees or other formal qualifications.

4. People who work in publishing or journalism.

5. English teachers or creative writing teachers.

6. People who are intelligent, well-read and who you 100% know will be honest with you.

7. Book doctors or other paid professionals who are able to supply you with credentials.

8. People who can spell.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Point 8, but isn't that why we have a spellchecker... so it can tell me my Knight mare is perfectly lovely....

 

[Glitch]

Find people who can write. They don't have to be published or even aspiring novelists, but they do have to understand the mechanics of writing.

I don't completly agree with that. Never rule anyone out, unless you think they won't be honest because they don't want to upset you - such as family members.

A person might be good at spotting continuity errors, they might help you find sentences which are difficult to read. A person who simply reads your story and says I didn't like/understand something or I loved this/that about it.

People who can write might be better at all that, but I would look for a varied bunch of readers.

 

[Coragem]

My advice is "never use family or friends!"

My advice is always use family and friends – although it does depend on the family and the friends!

I've tried writers groups, online sources, and it's been of very limited use. People who don't care about me just aren't prepared to read chapter after chapter, line by line. And unless a reader sees your work in breadth and detail, and truly comes to appreciate your characters' voices, they can't judge properly.

Will family and friends only tell you what you want to hear? Not if you tell them what you need, and if they truly care about your long term interests.

Finally, I'd never compare myself to Joe Abercrombie, but: http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2012/04/28/readers/

Coragem.

 

[nightdreamer]

My advice is "never use family or friends!"

I would have offered this same advice, but now I think it should be considered with a grain of salt. The friend who called me at 3:15 in the morning (as soon as she finished it) saying, "I'm going to kick your ass if you don't get this published!" seems more authentic that the one who just says, "Yeah, it's great," when prompted.

My wife is currently going through that same novel, and her mind works differently than either mine or the aforementioned friend. She is proving invaluable at finding missing word errors (which are invisible to me) and unclear passages. I suspect family and friends who are more interested in your success than they are coddling your feelings can be invaluable.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I offered my tiny bit of advice having had far too many good friends - who are still good friends - simply not be able to tell me that a particular piece of writing was rubbish. I was always able to tell from their body language... A good, true beta-reader is more valuable than gold.

 

[Warren_Paul]

The friend who called me at 3:15 in the morning (as soon as she finished it) saying, "I'm going to kick your ass if you don't get this published!"

All my non-writer friends and family say something along these lines, but they said it for my original draft - which was terrible. So once again, grain of salt. One of said friends was even a professional editor, and she kept telling me the writing was good and ready to go, even though it wasn't.

My wife is currently going through that same novel, and her mind works differently than either mine or the aforementioned friend. She is proving invaluable at finding missing word errors (which are invisible to me) and unclear passages. I suspect family and friends who are more interested in your success than they are coddling your feelings can be invaluable.

This is about all I've found family helpful with, proofreading. They don't have any advice to give on the sentence structure or the actual story content, because they don't know any better. But misspelt or missing words they do know.

 

[Danrama]

All my non-writer friends and family say something along these lines, but they said it for my original draft - which was terrible. So once again, grain of salt. One of said friends was even a professional editor, and she kept telling me the writing was good and ready to go, even though it wasn't.



This is about all I've found family helpful with, proofreading. They don't have any advice to give on the sentence structure or the actual story content, because they don't know any better. But misspelt or missing words they do know.

Misspelling and word structure should hopefully be ironed out in the copy edit phase I would have thought.
I had one terrific beta reader who was really into my characters and their development and that in itself is a valuable asset to have.
This site is fantastic! Thank you all for the feedback, it is truly appreciated.
I can see now that so many issues I have been tackling lately are more common with aspiring writers than I thought. It is arguable that getting published is actually harder than the novel writing process.

I think we can all agree on the fact that a good beta reader that gives feedback, either good or otherwise, is a magnificent thing.
Something that worries me though is that my editor was so positive about my work and confidant in its success that I think she missed a key point that is coming up now with my agent/publisher pitches/submissions. My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

 

[Brian G Turner]

My personal advice is to get beta readers who are one of the following:

1. Specifically read your genre
2. Are involved in the publishing industry, not least as a writer
3. Someone whose opinions on books can be quite critical, but reasonable, not least those books you can relate your own work to even not if strictly in your own genre

 

[Warren_Paul]

Misspelling and word structure should hopefully be ironed out in the copy edit phase I would have thought.

There are always mistakes you miss. It often takes a fresh pair of eyes - beta reader or editor - to catch them all.

My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

That's not too short, are agents telling you it is? In the US that is an acceptable size for debut authors. In the UK it could do with being bigger though.

From what I've seen, the upper limit for US agents is 120k, but the upper limit for UK is 140k. Of course there are exceptions made for brilliant writers, but around 100k is seen as the standard for debut authors. As long as it's over 90k, you're safe imo.

Of course if you're writing YA Fantasy, then 92k is perfect.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Misspelling and word structure should hopefully be ironed out in the copy edit phase I would have thought.

In my opinion it rests with you to catch as many of the above as you can. If an agent requests the first ten pages then finds a pile of misspellings and bad structure, he is not goiing to read even the whole ten. You must double check and polish every aspect of your work. It is your CV, you won't get another chance with this novel.

There is the misnomer that publishers will sort out spelling, sentence construction etc and you don't have to worry about it. Yes, you do.

Something that worries me though is that my editor was so positive about my work and confidant in its success that I think she

missed a key point that is coming up now with my agent/publisher pitches/submissions. My novel is too short. It is complete and polished at 92600 words and it is a fantasy novel. She never stressed that point to me. In fact no one has before the agents etc.

Aim between 90,000 and 130,000 and you are in the ball park.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Agreed. 92k is a bit light for a fantasy.

 

[Danrama]

There are always mistakes you miss. It often takes a fresh pair of eyes - beta reader or editor - to catch them all.




That's not too short, are agents telling you it is? In the US that is an acceptable size for debut authors. In the UK it could do with being bigger though.

From what I've seen, the upper limit for US agents is 120k, but the upper limit for UK is 140k. Of course there are exceptions made for brilliant writers, but around 100k is seen as the standard for debut authors. As long as it's over 90k, you're safe imo.

Of course if you're writing YA Fantasy, then 92k is perfect.

I was told by an agent and a publishing house (neither of whom I will name) who suggested making it over 100k. It is aimed at an adult audience, I just cannot tone down the battles enough to make it YA
I have not been on this forum for a little while due to focusing on the launch of my first novel. I have come to terms with the length of the novel and my aim is to have the other two books at least sit in the same area of length. I am hoping to get some critical readers at some point for my second novel and even have some critique done from published authors on my first novel releasing in just under two weeks.

Yours Nervously,
Dan

 

[prizzley]

perhaps my 'polished' ms isn't as sparkling as my editor and my beta readers led me to believe.

I believe my beta readers have been honest, but I doubt they've told the whole truth. It's a difficult task, because every reader makes a subjective judgement and what works for one may not work for another. I think the beta reader should tell you their main problems without nit picking. It helps if they are writers themselves and not your nearest and dearest.