chapter + Novel Lengths

[MattJDrumm]

Hi all,
I'm fairly new to this writing game and found this site while searching for advice, I have seen you guys help each other out a lot so I'm hoping I can get some of that help and advice - I started a novel several times over the years but it always got put on the backburner and ultimately vanished completely, recently I got inspired to write again so I started and I'm now determined to finish the book and the sequels (It's planned as a trilogy) but I just had a few quick questions about the length of the chapters and the novel itself.

Much of my research has led to the "whatever suits you" approach but I'm just wondering if people who actually have experience can give me advice - Most of my chapters so far are in the neighbourhood of 2,500 words (Based on the idea that 250 words equals 1 page) and I'm aiming for 80,000-90,000 words which is what I think is the "minimum" length for any good fantasy novel (At least the ones I've read)l, I've read many over the years and while I did enjoy the long ones and some really long ones I think personally the shorter ones were easier to read, One thing I always hated was finding myself stuck halfway through a really long chapter and having to leave it for some reason - Basically I always enjoyed reading chapter to chapter if that makes sense.

So what do you guys think is best - Is there a "minimum" or "maximum" chapter or novel length for this genre, Is it best simply to go with the "whatever suits you" method?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Matt

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Chapters really can be any length that works. The length of your chapters is a little shorter than the average, but there is nothing wrong with that if the divisions make sense.

As for the length of the book, if you were in the US or the UK that 80-90,000 would be about 30,000 words too short, but as you are in Australia the situation is somewhat different. Australian publishers, I have heard, want shorter books for brand-new writers. Still, I think 80,000 is going to be too short unless you are writing for YA readers.

I'd say aim for something in the 95-100,000 range.

Although, marketing considerations aside, a book should be whatever length suits the story best.

 

[Adam Locke]

I always struggle to know how to break up my writing into chapters.

Is chapter length etc the kind of thing that an agent/publisher will advise on, or will the expect it to be spot-on in the manuscript?

 

[The Judge]

I don't think that they worry about such things nearly as much as we do when we're starting out!

As for when to start a new chapter, think of natural divisions -- a change of location, of character viewpoint, of time -- almost like scenes in a film. I also look at word count. I'm with Matt, I dislike extended chapters, so I try to keep most of mine in the 3,000-4,500 range. If I get up to 6,000 I might consider splitting a chapter in two, but only if it feels right to do so, which will also depend on the word count of the individual scenes in it (no point breaking if one scene is 500 words long and the next 5,500) what the chapter is about and whether to break it up would destroy tension etc.

 

[Susan Boulton]

I always struggle to know how to break up my writing into chapters.

Is chapter length etc the kind of thing that an agent/publisher will advise on, or will the expect it to be spot-on in the manuscript?

Honestly it does not matter what length your chapters are. Chapters can be anything from a few words long to nearly 10,000. Some books don't have chapters at all, just scene breaks. An agent or publisher is not going to reject a novel because your chapters are not all 5,000 words long. Neither are they going to advise you on the length of chapters, that's your department as the writer. Chapters and scene breaks are a means of controlling the pitch and flow of a novel. A means of moving on the story and changing scene, and POV. You use them as you see fit to create your story.

 

[Adam Locke]

Thanks guys,

Its just that you hear so many horror stories about agents/publishers spotting a misplaced comma on page 1 of a manuscript and tossing it in the bin. Glad to hear they're not so fussy about chapter lengths/positioning etc.

 

[thaddeus6th]

I'd agree on the 100,000 words rough minimum. I recently had to write some extra stuff to get my own thingummyjig to that sort of number. It actually turned out to be quite good, as it not only made the story flow better but I added a minor, but entertaining, new character.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

On a related note then, when is a first novel too long? Mine's staying stubbornly around the 150000 word mark, despite a lot of editing.

Ref. chapters, I have about 80 of them, so mine are quite short, about 1500-2000 generally. I think it comes down to the writing style, the pace and where the natural breaks lie.

 

[The Judge]

Its just that you hear so many horror stories about agents/publishers spotting a misplaced comma on page 1 of a manuscript and tossing it in the bin.

They are just that -- stories. That is, they're not true.

Agents will not throw a story just because of a mistake or two, even ones on the first page. If the very first paragraph is full of spelling and punctuation errors it's a different matter -- because someone who is care-less enough on that score is likely to be equally uncaring about more major issues such as plot and characterisation.

An agent wants to find a book he can sell to a publisher, with, preferably, the minimum of effort. The more mistakes there are, the more effort will be involved in getting the book up to a standard which is fit to go before the public, and consequently it has a greater battle to win the agent over. So, take every step you can to avoid mistakes by checking and proof-reading and getting others to help, but ultimately the most important thing is to write a great story with a brilliant opening which will enthrall him to the extent he doesn't even notice any punctuation howlers!


EDIT: springs, that's probably a little on the high side, but an agent is looking primarily at the issue of quality -- he worries about quantity as a secondary point.

 

[Ian Whates]

As the Judge says, an agent isn't going to reject an MS for a comma being misplaced; now, if every comma is misplaced...

Regarding length, as Teresa and others have said, 80-90,000 is a little on the short side, certainly for the current UK and US markets. Something around the 100,000 mark would be more likely to appeal to agents and publishers.

Best of luck with the novel in any case.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Think of agents and editors as sensible people trying to do a difficult job while the publishing landscape keeps on changing (a situation that existed well before the advent of ebooks), and it will be easier to gauge which stories are simply nonsense and which have enough truth to them that you ought to pay attention to them.

They are not capricious, for all that some people will tell you that they are. They are not trying to make you jump through hoops (to indulge sadistic impulses would be as time-wasting at their end as they would be at yours). They are often overworked, and they try to do their jobs as well and as efficiently as they can, in the way that works best for them or their organization. Few of them make more than a decent living at it, because a lot of their work is unpaid, like reading through manuscripts they are not, in the end, going to represent (agents), or buy (editors). So in addition to writing a great book, it makes sense to present yourself through your writing as someone who is not going to cause them additional work. Think of them as ordinary people, going about their business just like anyone else. If that work involves crushing the hopes of some people, it also involves offering amazing opportunities to others. That's the nature of the business. They don't have the time or the resources to change it.

Where you choose to break your chapters is not going to cause them additional work; either they don't notice, or they will give you some quick advice and expect you to follow through and implement it. A misplaced comma is not going to make anyone extra work. Consistently bad spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. will make extra work, besides (as TJ says) presaging other problems ahead.

 

[MattJDrumm]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I was never set on getting to 80,000-90,000 words and then just stopping nor was I set in the frame of mind to make the chapters 2,500 words long but as I said in the first post I've stopped and started this book (or variations thereof) several times over the years and one of the biggest problems was lack of motivation caused by no guidelines (i.e. how long it COULD\SHOULD be etc.) so by giving myself the 2,500 chapter length and 80-90,000 word count length I was merely setting some basic goals, I figure that the "final" manuscript will still require months of editing and rewrites with additions and subtractions which will probably increase the length and hopefully make a better story anyway - But I guess I'll cross that bridge or throw myself off it! when the time comes.

As I said I do enjoy reading the shorter stories (up to 90,00 words ) but I've often felt that parts of those stories seemed rushed or incomplete and the book could have benefited from more chapters but then that could lead to the problem of overdoing it - Making the chapter or book too long with unnecessary scenes and details thrown in that could potentially ruin it. so I think with my book I'll try to aim for the 100,000 mark even of that does mean more chapters in the current length.

Re all the advice on publisher's agents requirements etc. I do appreciate it and it was all informative I'm not sure I'll need to worry about it too much since for now anyway I'll be self-publishing, I haven't given up on the idea of getting involved with an actual publisher (after all who wouldn't want to at some point in their writing career) but I have read that self publishing can be a good way to get started.

Something else that came up for me recently was at what point do you get a second opinion - I've been in contact with people who say they give their manuscripts to friends\family\beta readers etc. to get advice on the overall progression and feel of the story - Do you guys have any preferences\advice for when that should be done, once the MS is "finished", after the halfway point is reached or more frequently.

Thanks Again
Matt

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Something else that came up for me recently was at what point do you get a second opinion - I've been in contact with people who say they give their manuscripts to friends\family\beta readers etc. to get advice on the overall progression and feel of the story - Do you guys have any preferences\advice for when that should be done, once the MS is "finished", after the halfway point is reached or more frequently.

Thanks Again
Matt

Hi Matt, I gave mine to two friends to read over the summer who gave some initial feedback and helped iron out some of the worst atrocities/plot holes. This was at first completed draft stage.
But, by far the best thing I did was put it up for critiquing on this site, which has given me a really good indication of what I needed to work at/ whether editing was taking it in the right direction etc.
The critiques thread is worth having a look at to see the sort of things picked up on, and once you reach 30 posts, you can put up an excerpt to get feedback; and it is very honest, but also constructive, feedback. It's up to you how early you ask for it, but if it is still at draft stage, expect the feedback to reflect same.
You can also critique others on the thread, you don't have to have reached 30 posts to do so, and whilst I'm still finding it a tricky skill to master, it has improved my ability/confidence in critiqueing my own.

 

[Adam Locke]

Something else that came up for me recently was at what point do you get a second opinion - I've been in contact with people who say they give their manuscripts to friends\family\beta readers etc. to get advice on the overall progression and feel of the story - Do you guys have any preferences\advice for when that should be done, once the MS is "finished", after the halfway point is reached or more frequently.

I've been using the sff.onlinewritingworkshop for the past 6 months or so, usually uploading early-ish drafts of chapters as I write them. The site allows you to upload your writing to be critiqued and you have to earn points by critiquing other peoples work before you can upload more. There are some very talented people on there and I've received some very helpful advice.

 

[MattJDrumm]

I've been using the sff.onlinewritingworkshop for the past 6 months or so, usually uploading early-ish drafts of chapters as I write them. The site allows you to upload your writing to be critiqued and you have to earn points by critiquing other peoples work before you can upload more. There are some very talented people on there and I've received some very helpful advice.

Thanks, will keep that site in mind for when I'm ready.

 

[The Judge]

...I'll be self-publishing, I haven't given up on the idea of getting involved with an actual publisher (after all who wouldn't want to at some point in their writing career) but I have read that self publishing can be a good way to get started.

Yes and no. Mostly no, as far as I'm concerned. We've lots of threads on the subject, and it might pay you to read around all the arguments here -- we tend to talk rather more sense than a lot of forums out there. Basically, if you self-publish you are on your own and you are shouting into the teeth of a hurricane. If you have great selling skills, you are self-motivated and understand all about ebooks etc then you can do well. But you are faced with the fact that the majority of self-published books are drivel and what few real book shops remain will rarely touch them. Moreover, the chances of a professional publisher taking a self-published book up are vanishingly small. My advice, for what it's worth, is try the old-fashioned route first.

Something else that came up for me recently was at what point do you get a second opinion

Friends and family can be good for morale, and good for proof-reading (ie noticing mis-spelled words), but unless they are in the business themselves or are very knowledgeable readers, they can't help you with bigger issues. My personal take on it, particularly with a first novel, is not to show it to anyone for help (as opposed to morale-boosting) until the first draft is in place. Almost certainly someone who is used to critiquing will point out problems, because every manuscript has problems, and it can be very discouraging to hear them, especially for the first time. If that comes part-way through the novel you might get so discouraged that the book is never finished at all.

In any event, good luck with it!

 

[MattJDrumm]

Yes and no. Mostly no, as far as I'm concerned. We've lots of threads on the subject, and it might pay you to read around all the arguments here -- we tend to talk rather more sense than a lot of forums out there. Basically, if you self-publish you are on your own and you are shouting into the teeth of a hurricane. If you have great selling skills, you are self-motivated and understand all about ebooks etc then you can do well. But you are faced with the fact that the majority of self-published books are drivel and what few real book shops remain will rarely touch them. Moreover, the chances of a professional publisher taking a self-published book up are vanishingly small. My advice, for what it's worth, is try the old-fashioned route first.


Friends and family can be good for morale, and good for proof-reading (ie noticing mis-spelled words), but unless they are in the business themselves or are very knowledgeable readers, they can't help you with bigger issues. My personal take on it, particularly with a first novel, is not to show it to anyone for help (as opposed to morale-boosting) until the first draft is in place. Almost certainly someone who is used to critiquing will point out problems, because every manuscript has problems, and it can be very discouraging to hear them, especially for the first time. If that comes part-way through the novel you might get so discouraged that the book is never finished at all.

In any event, good luck with it!

Thanks for the advice, I really hadn't decided to abandon the old fashioned route altogether and I imagine it is way too soon to be deciding for sure either way so I'll wait until the draft is finished and all necessary revisions\additions etc. have been made before I make a decision for sure. Still plenty of time for that. and I have in fact started a synopsis which could be used for sending to agents etc. just in case though my research has indicated that can't even be completed properly until the MS is ready so again plenty of time I suppose.

I was thinking the same thing about the second opinion, I'm tempted to let someone read it before it's ready but considering what I have now will look remarkably different to what goes to print I don't suppose there's much pointing doing it sooner so again I'll wait until at least my first draft is "ready" and then let the critiquing begin.

 

[DrMclony]

I would side with the "the length it needs to be" argument. I hate reading fluffed out drivel because somebody has been forced to stretch something beyond it's natural tenure simply to reach an arbitrary word count. That goes for chapters AND novels. Generally if this happens, I don't read the next book by that author without careful examination.

My first novel had chapters up to 50 or 60 pages. My second averaged 15 to 20. My third averages 10-15. In each case, those chapters work the best they ever would at the lengths they fell in at.

I tend to the 60-80k mark without any conscious decision. If your work is truly good, it's length is not really the factor some would have you believe, speaking as a reader.

There is a bit too much of this arbitrary length stuff in recent years. It's not healthy. A wise publisher is above such things at the times that it counts, even if they use it at the times when it doesn't. The sad bit is while this helps them avoid much of the dross, it robs them of some of the winners (hence the wise bit above).

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

There are ways of filling out a piece of writing without "fluffing it out with drivel." There are always opportunities that could bear further exploration. There is always the possibility of further character development.

Most inexperienced writers either go overboard with the kind of florid description they wouldn't stand for in a book themselves, or (and here I include my own early drafts) their writing is too rushed and "flimsy," leaving out all the details that would bring it to life. Or they may have both problems at the same time.

A wise writer knows how to cut out the drivel and expand on those things that were left tissue-thin in an earlier draft, and end up with a book where the writing is tighter but the story is longer.

 

[DrMclony]

Well put Teresa. what you say is very true. There are definitely aspects of a story that can be expanded on in most cases. You are correct in that a wise writer can do exactly as you say. Sadly I have grown reticent to assume wisdom regardless of the role in production. But never fear - one day my jaded cynicism will pass