Books showing that there ARE things worth fighting for!

[Coragem]

Hi guys:

I'm new here, but not new to Sci-Fi and fantasy! Over the years I've increasingly realised what I like in terms of what I read. The precise genre isn't the issue for me (heroic fantasy, romantic fantasy, space opera, or whatever). Instead I read sci-fi and fantasy because the stuff I like inspires me: it makes me think that there ARE things worth fighting for, in our own world as well as in whatever fictional world I'm reading about; more than that, it makes me think that I can choose to be a better person, and that we can all (as David Bowie said) "be heroes just for one day".

Sounds cheesy?

Maybe, but I'm not saying that I only like reading stuff that all romance and happy endings. I don't mind books that show a lot of darkness, or even death, but I just need a sense that there's something worth living for, or fighting for, or indeed dying for.

My problem is that I would love to find more sci-fi that fits with my preferences. I adore sci-fi, but I hate nihilistic, pessimistic and/or dystopian sci-fi (i.e., life is seedy and pointless, so why not take drugs...).

Can you help me out?

To give you an idea some of the other stuff I like includes: David Gemmell, Peter V. Brett, George R.R.Martin, Juliet Marillier, Dan Simmons (esp. Hyperion), and Alastair Reynolds (esp. Chasm City!!!). As you may guess from the list, I like strong characters and in terms of sci-fi I prefer the fiction and characterisation to take precedence over the science.

I've been trying some Iain M Banks, but finding it too negative for me. Currently my "to read" shelf is stacked with titles by the likes of Peter F. Hamilton, C.J. Cherryh, William Gibson, China Melville, and others.

Anyway, advice appreciated!!!

Coragem.

 

[biodroid]

Check out Brent Weeks Night Angel trilogy because there is a lot of struggling and fighting for something bigger and better, to me thats mostly what the books were about and that was a really good motivator for those characters which made them seem very real. I am also reading Joe Abercrombies First Law trilogy and it seem to have the same premise as Weeks's trilogy (just getting into book 2 now). Peter V Bretts The Painted Man especially has something worth fighting for as a major plot device.

The Way of the Shadows (Book 1) - Brent Weeks
The Blade Itself (Book 1) - Joe Abercrombie
The Painted/Warded Man (depends on the US or UK version, Book 1) - Peter V Brett

 

[Coragem]

The Way of the Shadows (Book 1) - Brent Weeks
The Blade Itself (Book 1) - Joe Abercrombie
The Painted/Warded Man (depends on the US or UK version, Book 1) - Peter V Brett

I own and have read all three, lol!

The Desert Spear (Part II of Brett's Demon trilogy) is also fantastic.

I very much enjoyed Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, mainly for the very strong characters of Glotka and Logan, although Best Served Cold was a disappointment -- needlessly amoral and bloody.

I find it fairly easy to find fantasy that fits my moral / philosophical outlook. Fantasy is so often heroic (if flawed) protagonists fighting for a meaningful cause -- loosely heroes and villians. But my Q is really about sci-fi, with which I find book choices more difficult. I've looked forward to so many sci-fi books, then found myself depressed by very nihilistic images of the future wherein nothing seems worth living or fighting for...

Coragem

 

[Fried Egg]

Well, you probably won't go far wrong with most of Heinelin's output. Indeed, you can probably go back to the S.F. golden age to find plenty of optimisitic S.F.

For some specifics, how about:

"Earth Abides" by George R. Stewart
"The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester
"The City and The Stars" by Arthur C. Clarke
"More than Human" by Theodore Sturgeon
"Ender's Game" by Orsen Scott Card
"The Blue World" by Jack Vance
"The Voyage of the Space Beagle" by A. E. Van Vogt

Of course stuff like the "Lensman" series by E.E. Doc Smith would fit your criteria quite aptly...but I'm not sure I would receommend them.

 

[HareBrain]

Similarly, I haven't recently come across many stories (if any) which have any hopeful, big ideas of where humanity might go. For example, although I'm currently enjoying a book by Iain M Banks, his characters seem to be just "people like us" but with better tech, and I don't believe that will be the case any more than I think stone age people were just like us but with lower tech.

 

[Parson]

You sound like you like the kinds of books I like as well. I can't believe I didn't see these on your list, but on the off chance you haven't read any of David Weber's stuff, many of these have a lot of this.

The Honor Harrington series (now in its 12th volume) is his Master Work. The first four particularly explore the idea of what's worth dying for: "On Baslisk Station" "The Honor of the Queen," "The Short Victorious War," and "Field of Dishonor."

 

[Jayaprakash Satyamurthy]

What sort of fighting did you have in mind? There's a lot of militaristic SF by Niven, Pournelle and several lesser lights, many in the Baen stable, predicated on the notion that anything one values is worth going to battle for. Heinlein had all sorts of ideals, not necessarily all compatible or even laudable, and most of his novels contain some of them. From a more leftist perspective Ken Macleod has some sort of proletarian revolution in most of his early novel sequences. China Mieville's Iron Council is a sort of Marxist parable, from some angles. Ursula LeGuin's The Word For World Is Forest touches on a lot of things that I think are worth trying to protect and nurture. Personally I like Moorcock's champions who may individually side with law or chaos but are essentially agents of balance.

But really, if you live your life with eyes open it's hard not to see that there are thing worth fighting for, violently or otherwise. I'm as much of a bookworm as anyone on these forums but fiction has its limits.

 

[Parson]

What sort of fighting did you have in mind? There's a lot of militaristic SF by Niven, Pournelle and several lesser lights, many in the Baen stable, predicated on the notion that anything one values is worth going to battle for. Heinlein had all sorts of ideals, not necessarily all compatible or even laudable, and most of his novels contain some of them. From a more leftist perspective Ken Macleod has some sort of proletarian revolution in most of his early novel sequences. China Mieville's Iron Council is a sort of Marxist parable, from some angles. Ursula LeGuin's The Word For World Is Forest touches on a lot of things that I think are worth trying to protect and nurture. Personally I like Moorcock's champions who may individually side with law or chaos but are essentially agents of balance.

But really, if you live your life with eyes open it's hard not to see that there are thing worth fighting for, violently or otherwise. I'm as much of a bookworm as anyone on these forums but fiction has its limits.

Well said!!

 

[Clansman]

Coragem, your post is not cheesy at all, and it is refreshing to see hope in the midst of so much cynicism. The reason I read fantasy is the one that you stated so eloquently. The stuff I really like inspires me to be better than I currently am.

I would echo the recommendation Orson Scott Card's Ender series. Card's books changed me, and the way I thought, dramatically, and they are seminal books in character-based science fiction.

Based on your post, my strongest recommendation to you would be to read Janny Wurts' The Wars of Light and Shadow. It is a fantasy, but has science fiction elements that are not readily apparent at first (I can't say more without spoiling). It is not morally ambivalent, at all, but it does portray heroes and villains honestly (i.e. the bad guys believe they are doing good), and it has themes that really make you think about the way our own world works (such as how the winners write history, and how war really solves nothing, personal responsibility, the importance of an individual life, and the balance of the importance of the individual against the needs of human society). She writes war as brutal and rapacious as it is, to make the point of it being an exercise in violent futility. There are no Dark Lords or farm boys who become expert swordsmen in 6 months and save the world before they are 20. Rather, there are human beings in an impossible situation, and how they grow and react to the events in the story is what is so inspirational. There are moments of bitter sorrow, and moments of great beauty and hope. It is not a simple action story.

To declare my bias, I recommend these books to everyone, and they are my favourites. However, given your first post, you seem to be the kind of person that Janny Wurts reaches with her writing, which is big beefy prose that you must read slowly, or you lose the nuances. She purposefully makes people read more slowly, so that she can speak to you, and convince you to think about things with a new perspective. The series will be 11 books long, 8 are published, one in pre-publication editing, and the last two to be written.

I'd also recommend Carol Berg or Guy Gavriel Kay, as they seem to deliver what you are looking for: the virtues of the human spirit, grace under pressure, the imperfect hero overcoming his or her own shortcomings to achieve something great.

 

[soulsinging]

his characters seem to be just "people like us" but with better tech, and I don't believe that will be the case any more than I think stone age people were just like us but with lower tech.

Interestingly enough, I think stone age people were just like us with lower tech. We're animals, and the species-wide delusion that we're somehow far removed from our evolutionary heritage always amuses me. Maybe this is why we disagreed on the opening/closing lines thread...

 

[HareBrain]

Interestingly enough, I think stone age people were just like us with lower tech. We're animals, and the species-wide delusion that we're somehow far removed from our evolutionary heritage always amuses me. Maybe this is why we disagreed on the opening/closing lines thread...

You again!

Well, in one crucial sense I think we are far removed from our closest relatives and our distant ancestors, and that's in the development of the separate-self ego. We didn't achieve this jump all in one go; it has been suggested that our way of looking at ourselves didn't fully come about until the Renaissance, and even its previous stage didn't really kick off until the Bronze Age.

Bear in mind that even now (or at least within living memory), some isolated tribes in places like the Amazon don't even have concepts of past and future. The kind of worldview they inhabit is, I believe, way too removed from our own for them to be seen as "just like us".

For a brilliant portrayal of what it might have been like to inhabit a stone-age consciousness, read chapter one of Alan Moore's Voice of the Fire. It's the only place I've seen it convincingly done.

(Edit: I should make it clear that I'm talking about ways of seeing the world, in other words societal changes, nothing to do with advances in mental capacity. A stone age child raised in our society would be indistinguishable from ourselves. And to get back to the topic, what I'm looking for in Sci-fi is a story that projects a continuation of this advancement in consciousness or "way of thinking/perceiving".)

 

[elvet]

Having recently discovered Dan Simmons, I'm just in the middle of Endymion now. The whole series (Hyperion) reminds me of the Otherland books by Tad Williams. Not in the sense of story, but more in the way it's told - adventurers, multiple viewpoints and a slowly unfolding mystery.

 

[Coragem]

Wow, thanks for the suggestions guys. Clearly SFF Chronicles is a goldmine!

I've already acted on your suggestions and bought titles by Heinlein, Orson Scott Card, and David Weber.

I'll research some more titles and go from there.

A few of the suggestions (e.g., those that are part of the SF Masterworks series) I already own.

I'm intrigued by the Janny Wurts suggestion. I've actually been put off her stuff, having not particularly enjoyed Daughter of the Empire (co-written with Reymond E. Fiest). Basically, for me, D of the E wasn't sufficiently grounded in the characters' points of view, and the way the third person narrative was worked out (jumping from viewpoint to viewpoint, rather than sticking with one character's perspective within each sub-section) was awkward for me.

Still, after that recommendation I think I'll have to give Wurts another try!

Finally, perhaps I should disclose that I'm a psychologist by profession, and the therapies I use in my work have a Humanistic/Existential basis. This may be partly what drives my reading preferences. It's my job to help people see or create meaning and purpose in their lives, and I don't think I'd be able to do my job if I didn't believe that we can all (collectively and individually), make choices, and make changes, and refuse to give in when our values and ideals are challenged.

And by the way, "Coragem" means "Courage" in Portuguese -- my wife is Portuguese!

Thanks again,

Coragem.

 

[clovis-man]

I've been trying some Iain M Banks, but finding it too negative for me. Currently my "to read" shelf is stacked with titles by the likes of Peter F. Hamilton, C.J. Cherryh, William Gibson, China Melville, and others.

Stick with Cherryh from among those you say are on your shelf. And give Banks another chance. What seems like negativity might just be his Scottish wit. If you started with something like Use Of Weapons, I could see why you could be initially put off. You might find Excession or The Player of Games more up your alley.

 

[Vertigo]

I've a couple of suggestions to add to what's gone before. Parson has mention David Weber; I think (as well as his famous Honor Harrington books) I would recommend his Safehold books, starting with Off Armageddon Reef which are kind of all about what is worth fighting for.

I would also recommend Neal Asher if you liked Alastair Reynolds and Peter Hamilton. You will find Asher posts here occcasionally and there is a thread http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/525773-wheres-the-best-place-to-start.html which discusses the best order to read his Polity books. There are several different series all set in the same universe.

 

[woodsman]

Well, I'm not going to help much I'm afraid. Whilst I do enjoy the odd happy ending, I rarely find they have much impact.

A dystopia, especially where the hero fails to gain some release from his particular torment really brings the problem home to me. Take V fo Vendetta - the film, I quite enjoyed it but it didn't have any lasting impact, possibly because the great oppression was overcome - so no big deal right? 1984 on the other hand still keeps me up at nights(well maybe not..) because the idea that someone can become broken in that way and that liberties lost are not easily (if ever) regained, is truly worrying. This is the kind of book that makes me feel freedom of speech and information is really worth fighting for. It shocks me into wanting to take action. Having the maiden with the gun and the rocket save the day doesn't have that impact.

All in all not very helpful at all, but it's the other side of the coin.

As a recommendation, I loved the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson which has some strong utopian elements, without loosing sight of reality.

 

[Toby Frost]

Depends what you mean by the title, really. While I do find the obsession some people have for "dark" rather tedious and adolescent (I suspect some people get "dark" and "deep" inherently confused), I also find optimistic SF of the rah-rah militaristic school rather depressing too unless there is a degree of wit involved. After all, if the best we can do in the future is "Yay us, kill 'em all" we probably don't deserve to leave Earth.

Personally I find the most inspiring books to be either warnings (1984 is inspiring, in a strange, negative sort of way) or books about individuals trying to do better. Raymond Chandler's crime stories spring to mind, where the hero remains true to his principles and wins, despite the circumstances. Similarly China Mieville's books often are about idealists fighting a corrupt state (although they aren't very light reads and don't end entirely happily to say the least).

Asimov and Bradbury were two authors I found inspiring and uplifting where younger. Their worlds were rather sunny but they did have sinister elements. Most importantly though they seemed like nice guys: interesting people who talked about the right sort of morals even when they didn't have happy endings. You might also find Ursula Leguin's Right Hand of Darkness interesting: it's not one big smile, but it certainly is about characters finding things worth fighting for.

 

[clovis-man]

I should amplify on my earlier short comment. When I suggested C. J. Cherryh, I had in mind two series of novels: the Faded Sun series (from the late 1970s) and the Compact Space series (from 1981 thru 1992). These are all well told stories about individuals striving to make the best of tough situations and showing strength of character in the process. So I thought they might fit the scope of what you described in your original post.

 

[Clansman]

I'm intrigued by the Janny Wurts suggestion. I've actually been put off her stuff, having not particularly enjoyed Daughter of the Empire (co-written with Reymond E. Fiest). Basically, for me, D of the E wasn't sufficiently grounded in the characters' points of view, and the way the third person narrative was worked out (jumping from viewpoint to viewpoint, rather than sticking with one character's perspective within each sub-section) was awkward for me.

Still, after that recommendation I think I'll have to give Wurts another try!

Coragem.

Interesting! I found the Empire series to be the best of the Feist universe, with the possible exception of Magician, because the characterization was so good. I have not read the Empire series in about two decades, so I am overdue for another look.

If you want to dip a toe in the water, try her stand-alone novel To Ride Hell's Chasm. It gives you a good idea of her style, without committing to the 11 volume epic that is The Wars of Light and Shadow. This being said, a stand-alone does not allow the deep exploration of characters and themes that you see in the longer series. TRHC will give you inspiration, without the Hollywood ending or anything trite, but Curse of the Mistwraith, the first of the epic, will show you the foundation of something brilliant. While the ending of CotMW cannot be called anything but tragic, the seeds of hope are clearly sewn, and they do bear fruit in the most unlikely places throughout the series.

I think it is right up your alley, imo.