Some classic S&S ??

[GOLLUM]

I am shocked, sir; absolutely shocked!

John Jakes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brak was John Jakes' tribute/hommage, etc. to REH. In many ways intensely derivative, in some ways very much Jakes' own work, they are an essential for anyone heavily interested in S&S. Though seriously flawed, there is something about those tales that I do find fascinating, so that I periodically find myself going back to them.

Well dip me in tar and feathers why don't you?....

And here I was thinking I knew most of the main S&S folks.... Please don't forget that if you were brought up in the good ol' US of A that you're more likely to have been better exposed to the S&S influences than if you were growing up in Australia. *POUTS*...

Thanks for the link, I'll probably investigate John Jakes work too.

OH and Jirel predates Elak by at least 4 years in terms of publication, so you're right on that score.

 

[nomadman]

Brak was John Jakes' tribute/hommage, etc. to REH. In many ways intensely derivative, in some ways very much Jakes' own work, they are an essential for anyone heavily interested in S&S. Though seriously flawed, there is something about those tales that I do find fascinating, so that I periodically find myself going back to them....

Yes, I certainly think they've been given a raw deal over the years. They're a step above the Thongors of this world, at any rate.

What is it you find fascinating, may I ask?

As for Elak... doesn't Jirel actually predate Elak by a slight margin?

Certainly her Jirel of Joiry stories predate Kuttner's, although to my mind they were as much CAS and Lovecraft as they were Howard. Moore was her own writer, though. The Elak tales I've read seemed intentionally derivative, as if Kuttner was trying to fill the void left by Howard's passing. While I enjoyed them, they never seemed as personal to me as either Howard's and Moore's work was.

Certainly C. L. Moore made no bones about the fact the character was at least in response to Howard's heroes... and REH himself thought quite highly of the series (at least, the ones he lived to see), as I recall....

I don't know if Moore ever considered herself a successor to Howard. While Jirel could fit right at home in a Conan yarn, the actual tales rarely contain much combat; it's the imagery and ideas that take center stage over the (often flimsy) plot structure.

No, I'd strongly disagree with that.

There's a world of difference between being immensely well-read and being a talented writer; and Carter (bless him) simply was not the latter....

I wasn't posing an entirely serious question there, more registering my bafflement. Still, it does make me wonder whether Carter was just unable to find his own voice, or if it drowned out by all the others.

 

[j d worthington]

I'd say that Carter had found his own voice -- one can see it now and again in some of his short, non-heroic fantasy tales from early on; it's just that he wasn't that talented a writer to begin with (IMO), and quickly let his enthusiasm for these other writers carry him into blatant imitation -- beside which, working with De Camp on the Conan pastiches pretty solidly sealed him in that niche....

No, I don't think she quite saw herself that way, but Howard's work sparked Moore into writing the Jirel tales, I think (I can't recall for certain, but I believe I've seen a statement from her to that effect many, many years ago). And that wasn't an unusual thing for Kuttner -- he did it with his Lovecraftian stories, and various other things as well, when he was a young writer. It took him awhile to assimilate his influences and find his voice; once he did, of course, it was a different thing... and then he and Moore married, and collaborated on darned near everything to some degree, and at that point it's difficult to truly say which is which... though what they did is (in the vast majority of cases) exceptionally good work....

As to what it is about the Brak tales... I've never been able to quite define that to my own satisfaction, really; but a part of it is, I think, that despite being so derivative in many respects, there is enough of originality to give a distinct feel to Brak's world all its own; not to mention the often very quirky and bizarre sorts of antagonists he has to face....

 

[Connavar]

Which of these classic S&S is most highly recommended by you guys who have read it ?

I mean outside uber famous ones like REH. Some that might be underrated.

For example this Moore,Kuttner are they really good in SS ?

All these talk in thread made hungry to try other classic SS works.

 

[nomadman]

I'd say that Carter had found his own voice -- one can see it now and again in some of his short, non-heroic fantasy tales from early on; it's just that he wasn't that talented a writer to begin with (IMO), and quickly let his enthusiasm for these other writers carry him into blatant imitation -- beside which, working with De Camp on the Conan pastiches pretty solidly sealed him in that niche....

Interesting. Can't say I'm going to seek out his early work any time soon, but I can certainly understand why he might be driven to imitate, rather than innovate, especially when he'd already read the best of what there was to read. Perhaps he just never grew out of his infantile desire to pastiche. Or perhaps, as you say, he was simply a crap writer.

 

[nomadman]

Which of these classic S&S is most highly recommended by you guys who have read it ?

I mean outside uber famous ones like REH. Some that might be underrated.

For example this Moore,Kuttner are they really good in SS ?

All these talk in thread made hungry to try other classic SS works.

I certainly recommend Moore. Her work is incredibly unique and wonderfully imaginative. Although her Jirel tales tend to be rather samey, the imagery and ideas on offer are the very epitome of weird. Her Northwest Smith tales are very similar to Leigh Brackett's tales of interplanetary adventure, particularly those of Eric John Stark.

Kuttner only wrote four Elak stories, of which I've read two. They weren't bad, but, as I've mentioned above, somewhat derivative.

Brak again is derivative, but strangely compelling. Check him out if you see him in a used bookstore (I believe they're currently out of print).

You might also like to read Roger Zelazny's Dilvish the Damned, a collection of short stories he wrote between the sixties and the eighties.

And then there's Imaro, which I recommended elsewhere. Much more realistic than many of the Conan clones, and a rich and original fantasy in its own right.

 

[j d worthington]

Connavar: If you are interested in reading the Elak tales, this article might help quite a bit, as it names paperback sources where they can be found:

Sword & Sorcery - Your resource for fiction, interviews, articles, information & more

I mention these first, because I've got them, and know the quality. The stories have, however, been collected into a single volume, which I haven't seen, but in a series that is doing some "classics" of the genre:

paizo.com - Elak of Atlantis (Trade Paperback)

I would also recommend Zelazny's Dilvish stories, which sequence ended with a novel -- so you'd be looking for two books:

Dilvish, the Damned - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Changing Land - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for which of the ones mentioned earlier I'd recommend... I'd definitely pick Moore and Saunders of the original four discussed, for the reasons given. There's a Masterworks volume that collects together all of Moore's Jirel and Northwest Smith stories, iirc, so that's not all that difficult to come by.

As for Moore (and Kuttner) being influenced by HPL -- well, that's not surprising. Moore had a few years' correspondence with him (several of his letters to her are published in the Selected Letters volumes from Arkham House), while Kuttner corresponded with him during the final months of HPL's life (as did Fritz Leiber). He often gave them feedback and always gave them support in their writing endeavors, just as he did with several other fantaisistes of the period, such as Robert Bloch, Henry S. Whitehead, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, E. Hoffmann Price, Donald Wandrei, and August Derleth, to name only a few....

 

[GOLLUM]

As for which of the ones mentioned earlier I'd recommend... I'd definitely pick Moore and Saunders of the original four discussed, for the reasons given. There's a Masterworks volume that collects together all of Moore's Jirel and Northwest Smith stories, iirc, so that's not all that difficult to come by.

Interesting discussion this. The Masterwork edition JD refers to is called Black Gods and Scarlet Dreams and does represent good value. I too can recommend Moore and Kuttner's work. If you have an opportunity you should seek out a copy of the Two-Handed Engine. It's not cheap but it does cover their collaborative work.

I've read very little from Carter but it doesn't sound as if it's worth pursuing when I've only got limited time to spend on my S&S.

 

[Who's Wee Dug]

Golum,here is some more S&S Conan pastiche if you have not come across them yet.
Gardner F Fox

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kothar - Barbarian Swordsman[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1969[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kothar and the Demon Queen[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1969[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kothar of the Magic Sword![/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1969[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kothar and the Conjuror's Curse[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1970[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kothar and the Wizard Slayer[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1970[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]

and similar but a darker in vein
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]1. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kyrik: Warlock Warrior[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1975[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]2. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kyrik Fights the Demon World[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1975[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]3. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kyrik and the Wizard's Sword[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1976[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial]4. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]Kyrik and the Lost Queen[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial] ([/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]1976[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial]) [/FONT]

 

[Connavar]

Thanks guys !

I will looking after Kuttner,Moore,Imaro books. Hopefully i find collections that arent too expensive.

J.D it was very interesting reading that SS article about Kuttner.

Nomadman:

I have no problem at all if some of these classic S&S writers were
derivative of REH. In my eyes thats a good thing that will get their works bought my me

 

[GOLLUM]

Thanks guys !

I will looking after Kuttner,Moore,Imaro books. Hopefully i find collections that arent too expensive.

Well the Moore book from Masterworks is not expensive. If you buy that Elak book thtat JD suplied the link to that's also quite cheap. Not so sure about the Imaro books that I'm getting, not too pricey though....

 

[GOLLUM]

Can anyone comment on Otis Kline, more specifically his Swordsman Of Mars?...

 

[j d worthington]

Otis Adelbert Kline: I hate to say it, but I'd have to call him the quintessence of a hack writer. His stories are not particularly good pastiche of ERB, in the main. If you don't mind really pulpish rehashings of what's been done better before, he can be mildly enjoyable, but I can't say that any of his work that I've read has ever been particularly memorable.

Pity... a nice man, from all accounts; and someone they could depend upon to help fill a magazine on short notice (as were many of the pulpsmiths -- e.g., Lester Dent or Walter Gibson); and I've read a few interesting accounts of the man himself. But, like Seabury Quinn, he found a pulp formula that worked, and he worked it into the ground... about 6 miles, I'd say.

Glad you enjoyed the essay on Kuttner, Connavar. He's an interesting man; a bit of a literary chameleon. But at his best, he was very good, indeed....

 

[Connavar]

Well the Moore book from Masterworks is not expensive. If you buy that Elak book thtat JD suplied the link to that's also quite cheap. Not so sure about the Imaro books that I'm getting, not too pricey though....

Its not the books actual price that is a worry to me but the shipping cost for second hand books that some places take.

The actual price + who has not expensive shipping + plus making the cost to swedish money is the deal.


Also i wouldnt recommend Nightshade version of Imaro. Saunders removed one of the original Imaro stories that made the original novel cause the story was too similar to Rwandian Genocide.

 

[nomadman]

Also i wouldnt recommend Nightshade version of Imaro. Saunders removed one of the original Imaro stories that made the original novel cause the story was too similar to Rwandian Genocide.

Yes, I already mentioned that. The tale in question is "Slaves of the Giant Kings". I don't know how the replacement story "The Afua" compares, but it isn't a bad story in its own right. Certainly not bad enough to avoid the book altogether.

 

[Connavar]

Yes, I already mentioned that. The tale in question is "Slaves of the Giant Kings". I don't know how the replacement story "The Afua" compares, but it isn't a bad story in its own right. Certainly not bad enough to avoid the book altogether.

Oh sorry i must have missed that.

I ordered The Imaro from 1981 cause i want the original stories. That the story has something in commen with horrible real life part of history like that one just makes it more interesting.

Ordered Elak of Atlantis too.

Nothing against CL Moore but she sounded more like Moorcock than classic S&S alà REH. I couldnt afford all three this month.

 

[GOLLUM]

Nothing against CL Moore but she sounded more like Moorcock than classic S&S alà REH. I couldnt afford all three this month.

Moore is worth getting but that's for next month right?...

 

[Connavar]

Maybe not next month but she is at the top of the next classic fantasy authors to get. I have huge urge to read more more good S&S that i would read people that got dissed in this thread and who are not near as classic CL Moore

I think Elak and co will keep me busy more than a month

 

[GOLLUM]

Yep, I just ordered some more S&S stuff inlcuding Imaro.

 

[nomadman]

Oh sorry i must have missed that.

I ordered The Imaro from 1981 cause i want the original stories. That the story has something in commen with horrible real life part of history like that one just makes it more interesting.

Hey, that's cool. Let me know what you think of "Slaves..." I'd be interested to see how it compares (storywise) to the replacement.

Nothing against CL Moore but she sounded more like Moorcock than classic S&S alà REH. I couldnt afford all three this month.

Hmm, I wouldn't say she's much like Moorcock. They both possess a vivid imagination, but Moore is a lot closer to Howard in feel. Her Jirel character is a lusty square-jawed wench that can swing swords with the best of 'em. If you enjoy the weirder Conan tales like The Slithering Shadow, I think you'll enjoy Moore.