Let's coin a new term: "Wotism"

[Thadlerian]

I think the problem using WoT as an example is that the men are not tremendously well-written or defined either, and usually let the women order and boss them around for no logical reason.

The point is not the deepness/shallowness of the characters, but the way men as a rule come across to the reader as far more sympathetic, tolerant and patient than women as a rule; they're more likeable characters.

 

[Werthead]

Not sure about this, but then I recall you haven't read the later books where the trend is much worse. Perrin was likable until he turned into Faile's whipping-boy, and by Books 9-11 has turned into an utter caricature of his earlier self. Mat took a turn for the worse under the influence of Tuon but at the end of KoD (Book 11) redeems himself. Rand has become a totally two-dimensional cypher.

Would the knowledge that Robert Jordan introduces a 'super-Myrddraal' later in the books who rapes two of the female Forsaken when they fail missions for him have any impact on your thesis?

 

[Thadlerian]

I don't think it would, not much. This 'super-myrddraal' example sounds too much like a single incident, while my thesis concerns the big picture male-female differentiation. There were several exceptions from wotism in the first five books (like the character Min, who seemed to be built far less on the Nynaeve model than the rest of the female cast), but as those were in a small minority, I feel that my statements are supported.

 

[Werthead]

No, the 'super-Myrddraal' (Shaidar Haran) is introduced in the prologue to Book 6 and plays a role in every other novel in the series.

Min degrades in the last few books into a lovestruck idiot. She starts wearing high heels to impress Rand, for example, which I thought was a bizarre reversal of her earlier character.

 

[Carolyn Hill]

Gack. You all are making me very glad I've not read any of the Wheel of Time.

 

[Thadlerian]

An important aspect, perhaps even the main function, of wotism is the point when the man's patience and tolerance is stretched too thin: In a, to the reader, satisfying act of power and determination, he does what he "should" have done all along: He teaches the woman "her place". After all, who can deny him this right, after all the abuse he's accepted? Finally he can get on with saving the world, without further impediments.

As the WoT is drawing towards an end, perhaps this is what has started happening when this super-myrddraal incident takes place? Rape is a tasteless way of doing this, but they're bad guys, after all.

 

[Werthead]

Well, I still wouldn't wish it in on my worst enemy. I think it's the way of Shaidar Haran exercising power, although that does beg the question of what he'd do to a male Forsaken if they failed on such a scale (although it hasn't happened since most of them have been eliminated by Book 11).

 

[Siberian]

I have to agree with everything the original poster said. I tried to reread WoT over the past couple of years... and I just couldn't get past wholly unsympathetic characters, men and well as women. Everyone is constantly engaged in a gender war, not to mention immature and one-dimensional.

 

[thepaladin]

Men don't actually "rule" the women in WoT. There are plenty of instances where the "wrapped around her finger" principle kicks in (and gets "WaYYYY" annoying!) That's one of the waeknesses in the WoT from the first..that "battle of the sexes" nonsense.

 

[Thadlerian]

Ah, Wotism revisited, three years later, is it?

I have not quite forgotten this thread, and I have certainly not forgotten the ideas conveyed here. The thread was a rather impulsive action of youth, and today - with the wisdom of years - I see that I would not again have formulated some of the ideas that way. Even so, my conclusion remains; I have seen the idea verified over and over in a number of works since.

If I should phrase the idea over, it would simply be this: Many male writers have a strong propensity to create character galleries in which female characters play overwhelmingly negative roles compared to the male characters. SF/F women generally seem to be confined to a small selection of available character roles, whereas male characters can play any thinkable function in a story.

This view may be biased - I might simply be predisposed to sympathise more with male characters than females, due to my own gender, and see their roles in a more positive light. I do, however, argue that the effect I observe is far too strong for such a bias to explain it.

In the years since I made this thread, other sources of opinion of male-female differences in stories have developed. I am, of course, referring to TV Tropes. The Wotist ideas of my original post can be found reflected in a variety of tropes, including Tsundere, Damsel Scrappy and Straw Feminist. But there is as of yet no trope for the general large-scale positive-negative differentiation of a writer's universe.

An example of a recently discovered case of Wotism, which left me in a state of great dismay upon conclusion, is Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy. For all of Robinson's grand sophistication, he has consistently designed the female protagonists of his trilogy to be highly unlikeable. The story is moved forward by the men, while the women largely acts as liabilities and sources of conflict.

The positive-negative differentiation can also be applied to a lighter degree, I have concluded after reading book 3 and 4, to Steven Erikson's Malazan books. With the exception of Tattersail, and perhaps a few others, Erikson's women are largely joyless and surly creatures, compared to the relaxed and playful men that comprise the light-hearted Malazan universe.

This time, however, I will not adamantly insist that such tendencies are a conscious reaction to feminism and society's incremental development towards gender equality. It is probably a sign of something more latent.

Though I cannot see why everyone is talking about a "gender war" in WoT. A war has, as far as I am aware, two sides, and through the five WoT books that I read, I could only see one. Does this mean the men are finally allowed to return fire in the later books?

 

[HareBrain]

Three years too late to jump to its defence maybe, but I can't see how Fullmetal Alchemist fits in here.

 

[Thadlerian]

Three years too late to jump to its defence maybe, but I can't see how Fullmetal Alchemist fits in here.

Winry fits most of the original post pretty well, if I recall correctly. Not sure if the rest of the series fits, though - too long since I watched it. But Winry is pretty much the only female character approaching membership in the main cast, apart from the Homunculi.

 

[thepaladin]

It may not be as prevelant, but the oppisite situation can happen as well. I recently read a C.J. Cherryh tomb that i'd been meaning to get to for some time. I'd read several rave reviews of Paladin (ironic reflecting on my user name I guess) and had made it a point to run it down. The depiction of the male lead in this bokk drove me up the wall. he was supposed to be sympathic I suppose but the entire book the only thing he could think about was getting the young woman who came to him for help into the sack. He even considers forcing her (for her own good of course...she needs to learn a woman can't possibly become a sword-master...he only wants to help....). The picture of how the writer thinks a man's mind must work is slightly disturbing.

 

[HareBrain]

Winry fits most of the original post pretty well, if I recall correctly. Not sure if the rest of the series fits, though - too long since I watched it. But Winry is pretty much the only female character approaching membership in the main cast, apart from the Homunculi.

Though a bit wet at times, I don't think Winry fits any of your numbered points in the original post - in what way? And there are plenty of other female characters too, none of whom do either - Izumi, Riza (both definitely full cast members), Sheshka, Dante, Rose, Trisha Elric, Grace Hughes, Winry's gran - and since it was written by a woman, this shouldn't be surprising. OK, so their roles might not in total be as large as the male ones, but gender screentime imbalance wasn't the point of your post (which I thought a valid one, but which in my view just doesn't apply to this series).

 

[Thadlerian]

Though a bit wet at times, I don't think Winry fits any of your numbered points in the original post - in what way? And there are plenty of other female characters too, none of whom do either - Izumi, Riza (both definitely full cast members), Sheshka, Dante, Rose, Trisha Elric, Grace Hughes, Winry's gran - and since it was written by a woman, this shouldn't be surprising. OK, so their roles might not in total be as large as the male ones, but gender screentime imbalance wasn't the point of your post (which I thought a valid one, but which in my view just doesn't apply to this series).

Now that you mention it, you may be right. It might be that I just applied the tendency wholesale to animé, since it seems so prevalent there, and since Winry at the time seemed to me very much like a WoT girl. Scratch FMA then.

 

[zaelyel]

I have read the wot until the tenth book and I have to agree that it is 'wotish'. I felt that after Moiraine died the female characters all started conforming to a certain stereotype so much so that none of them seemed to have individual characteristics. I was specially exasperated when Min started behaving like all the rest as she was my favorite character, having this boyish tendency which set her apart. My brother seems to be blind to this phenomenon, but I am glad to find that others agree. I like the story and I find it a shame that I cannot read it without a feeling a distaste for the female characters.

 

[Toby Frost]

Excellent first post, if I may say so.

Although I've not read the Wheel of Time, this sort of character is fairly familiar. They always seem to me to be a kind of superficial rebellion against the standard damsel in distress (done by reversing several of the basic tropes), whilst retaining the sort of characteristics that in the end will allow them to be wooed by the hero. The problem with this is that it makes them rather flimsy at the end, and their individuality starts to look either false or like a passing phase.

I am not sure whether the "boys are rubbish" pose is supposed to be taken entirely seriously - it probably depends from one character to another. It starts with an understandable idea (the character's sense of being put-up in a male-dominated world, I guess) but would soon run up against problems. Who could argue that most "high-level" characters in SF/F really were like that? If not done carefully this sort of "Huh, men!" looks rather childish.

It's always depressing to see an entertaining character forced to change into a boring one, and my experience of such types suggests that this is what they tend to do. I think it was Marion Zimmer Bradley who warned against creating either female characters who are tough until the right man shows up, or those who are utterly weedy until danger appears. To my mind this sort of problem comes from approaching characters as types rather than individuals (I need a heroine who's quite 21st century but won't make the hero look less manly...).

Besides, what happens after the story? If you've spent the first 25 years of life swordfighting, shooting aliens or wielding copious magic, you're unlikely to want to spend the rest of it making someone dinner and telling him how great he is.

 

[Siberian]

Though I cannot see why everyone is talking about a "gender war" in WoT. A war has, as far as I am aware, two sides, and through the five WoT books that I read, I could only see one. Does this mean the men are finally allowed to return fire in the later books?

Well, Rand becomes extremely powerful, doesn't he?
But what I mean by the gender war is how no one can get past the other's gender. Women constantly want to box men's ears and men constantly complain about shrewish women. I'm exaggerating somewhat, but that's the feeling that I get from the book. And why do the powerful women like Aes Sedai or the queen of Andor have to be reduced to ninnies?

 

[Spectrum]

Great first post. In addition to Wheel of Time, I agree with you that the tendency is also quite widespread in anime. Ranma ½ is a good example. Many other series exhibit the phenomenon to varying degrees. Consider, for example, the horribly evil character of Milly Ashford in Code Geass.

This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that most anime plays this for comedy (for some reason I don't get, "loser boy bullied by psycho girl" is apparently considered funny in Japan and even other places), whereas Wheel of Time plays it dead straight.