New reader...

[Commonmind]

Hey guys. I've been putting off reading A Song of Ice and Fire, despite its acclaim, for a long time now. I've been too busy brushing up on a few old Wheel of Time books before I read Knife of Dreams and in the middle of reading Goodkind's latest SoT book. I have a few questions and am hoping for a little guidance. First, about 60 pages into A Game of Thrones and I am utterly and hopelessly addicted. I rarely open a book and in the first few pages of the first chapter or the prologue am completely drawn into the world. That being said, I guess one of my worries is when reading the chapter involving Dany and her brother, the children of the slain king, there were hints of her being married to a kahl (im guessing some kind of lord of their part of the world) and it mentioned her being quite young (13 if I remember correctly). I am just concerned since there seems to be a theme here, with the mention of the King's son and Ned's daughter being betrothed at merely 11 and then this mention of Dany being married so young, that I am going to happen along a sexual encounter involving these young girls. So far G.R.R. has sold me as a writer, and I do not believe touching upon these subjects in his book makes him any less for it, after all these types of couplings took place in our own history, but for me it is a touchy subject, one I cannot easily stomach. Are there scenes of this sort in the book and is this theme a recurring one? Or is this simply a buildup of events that are helping you to understand certain aspects of the characters?

If someone has some insight it is appreciated. I know ASoIaF is thought of as being one of the best fantasy epics in the genre, and so far I'm really enjoying it, I just would like to avoid scenes of the afformentioned ilk if at all possible.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Actually truth be told, except for acceptable (in my standards) levels of violence theres really only one cringe-worthy scene later on. Trust me Dany's marriage will be acceptable and for Sansa, being betrothed and being married are two completely separate issues.

George is a great writer, capable of juxtaposing the realities of his mythos with the sensibilities of our own society. You wont be disappointed or disheartened in any way by these novels.

That being said...welcome, enjoy the veal...the posters here are friendly, sometimes coherent, and spend most of their time generating endless amounts of conspiracies that bear absolutely no fruit. The ASoIaF is kind of addicting so set aside plenty of time to read and try not to ignore your spouse/children/job/goldfish/caddy/significant other/alternative lifestyle partner/cellmate while you do.

 

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, I'm afraid there is somewhat sexually explict scenes later on between Dany & her husband. I think it's handled well but it is there. The trouble (?) is that GRRM does not flinch from realism in his novels and, in the middle ages, it was common-place (and even considered highly desirable) for brides to be very young and often used as political or power consolidations between rival factions.
This has been discussed (at length) in the past - see below.
However, it got very heated and is chock full of spoilers so I'd avoid it. I include it here for the others who have read up to date and weren't aware of the earlier discussion.

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8535-disturbing-theme-in-affc.html

 

[Commonmind]

Actually truth be told, except for acceptable (in my standards) levels of violence theres really only one cringe-worthy scene later on. Trust me Dany's marriage will be acceptable and for Sansa, being betrothed and being married are two completely separate issues.

George is a great writer, capable of juxtaposing the realities of his mythos with the sensibilities of our own society. You wont be disappointed or disheartened in any way by these novels.

That being said...welcome, enjoy the veal...the posters here are friendly, sometimes coherent, and spend most of their time generating endless amounts of conspiracies that bear absolutely no fruit. The ASoIaF is kind of addicting so set aside plenty of time to read and try not to ignore your spouse/children/job/goldfish/caddy/significant other/alternative lifestyle partner/cellmate while you do.

That is definitely good news. Plunging into the first book of an epic series and being that enthusiastic to turn the page but seeing some themes I may not be a fan of gave me a sinking sensation. I was hoping it wouldn't be a trend throughout the books, as Goodkind often does, revisiting physical torture and emotionally shocking character-molding events.

 

[Commonmind]

Well, I'm afraid there is somewhat sexually explict scenes later on between Dany & her husband. I think it's handled well but it is there. The trouble (?) is that GRRM does not flinch from realism in his novels and, in the middle ages, it was common-place (and even considered highly desirable) for brides to be very young and often used as political or power consolidations between rival factions.
This has been discussed (at length) in the past - see below.
However, it got very heated and is chock full of spoilers so I'd avoid it. I include it here for the others who have read up to date and weren't aware of the earlier discussion.

http://www.chronicles-network.com/forum/8535-disturbing-theme-in-affc.html

[/quote]


As mentioned above I know that historically marriages of youth were very commonplace. But it is good to know he does it as tastefully as possible. My only problem is when authors tend to blur the line between realistic and tactless, when instead of simply painting a picture for the reader so that they are feeling what the character is going through, or how the experience is affecting him or her, we are force-fed a manifestation of the author’s sick fantasies or the writer simply loses touch with what is acceptable and what could be considered pornographic and abusive. Not all authors do it this way of course, and since all readers are different I gather it is a hard job to find a median.

It’s not that I’m some conservative snob, I was just concerned over this theme in particular; it sort of hits home for me, and I thank you guys for putting my worries at ease. I’m really enjoying the story so far.

 

[Wiggum]

I don't think Martin comes off as putting any of it in there as a outlet for his sick fantasies.

That being said, he does put a lot in there that could easily be found disturbing for people that it hits a little too close to home for.

The age thing never bothered me (I never even thought about it until this thread), as it was appropriate for the period in history that he is approximating in his writing. But the books don't shy away from sex, both normal and perverse.

 

[Koopa]

Most marriages where predated by long bethrothals, also note that many marriages where made solely out of a political viewpoint.

In Medieval times it was normal for a girl to marry once she had flowered, cause the lifes where physically harder then and more dangerous.
They had if i am not mistaken an average life span of 40 yrs.
The hygiene and medicine back then where bad resulting in high deathnumbers, in order to ensure the continuation they where forced to have high birth numbers as well. Wich is only possible if you start getting young'uns on a short age. Remember that in those days the fertility of a woman was less long, the menopause came a lot quicker.

 

[Commonmind]

I don't think Martin comes off as putting any of it in there as a outlet for his sick fantasies.

That being said, he does put a lot in there that could easily be found disturbing for people that it hits a little too close to home for.

The age thing never bothered me (I never even thought about it until this thread), as it was appropriate for the period in history that he is approximating in his writing. But the books don't shy away from sex, both normal and perverse.

That's good to know. I've read some books where it certainly felt as there was simply too much enjoyment being had on the part of the writer, giving the impression that they were using their work to detail their inner physical desires. As for any sexual encounters, I'm all for that, especially since it makes the work more realistic and believable. I was just concerned with there being an abundance of sexual interaction with children, or younger teenagers. Despite what has been reiterated and what I touched on myself, that marriage was acceptable at younger ages in older times, it doesn't change the fact that it bothers me emotionally. Saying one thing is acceptable then doesn't change how it is percieved now, or how it may affect someone that has been through a negative life-experience where these types of themes were involved. I was overly worried because so far I really love his writing and because of my emotional hang-ups I didn't want to have to put the book down for fear of there being too much of those experiences.

I don't want to beat the subject to death, and I surely don't want to come off as being too critical so I will thank everyone for the quick responses and I'll keep enjoying the book. I'm about 80 or so pages in now and can't stop...

 

[Commonmind]

Most marriages where predated by long bethrothals, also note that many marriages where made solely out of a political viewpoint.

In Medieval times it was normal for a girl to marry once she had flowered, cause the lifes where physically harder then and more dangerous.
They had if i am not mistaken an average life span of 40 yrs.
The hygiene and medicine back then where bad resulting in high deathnumbers, in order to ensure the continuation they where forced to have high birth numbers as well. Wich is only possible if you start getting young'uns on a short age. Remember that in those days the fertility of a woman was less long, the menopause came a lot quicker.

All of this I'm quite aware of, being a history buff and a writer myself I spend a lot of time reading about Medieval societies, doing research and the like. Thank you for the effort though, even though these are things I know well, it does feel good to hear someone else drive it home; it helps me to be a little less subjective. Again, thanks to everyone for the help.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

That is definitely good news. Plunging into the first book of an epic series and being that enthusiastic to turn the page but seeing some themes I may not be a fan of gave me a sinking sensation. I was hoping it wouldn't be a trend throughout the books, as Goodkind often does, revisiting physical torture and emotionally shocking character-molding events.

Clearly this thread is drawing to a close, but I did just want to let you know Martin is nothing like Goodkind. Rape, sexual torture, and vicious dominatixes in red leather outfits is all indicative of something going on in his world that I dont want to be a part of......

George acknowledges these things and speaks of them in his novel. But at very few points do these subject take center stage. I think its okay in novels to speak of some of the baser things in life (as George does) in order to advance the story.....but I tend to get squeamish when they are actually depicted (as Goodkind does).....

Martin will not disappoint I should think.

 

[Commonmind]

Clearly this thread is drawing to a close, but I did just want to let you know Martin is nothing like Goodkind. Rape, sexual torture, and vicious dominatixes in red leather outfits is all indicative of something going on in his world that I dont want to be a part of......

George acknowledges these things and speaks of them in his novel. But at very few points do these subject take center stage. I think its okay in novels to speak of some of the baser things in life (as George does) in order to advance the story.....but I tend to get squeamish when they are actually depicted (as Goodkind does).....

Martin will not disappoint I should think.

Spoiler for any Sword of Truth readers: Goodkind made me dislike the Mord-Sith to such a degree that by Soul of the Fire I couldn’t connect with any of them, even though they had pledged their allegiance to Richard and had shown themselves to be dynamic characters (at least to the effect that they had more sides than their domineering one).

And from what I’ve read I’m far from disappointed. A new book hasn’t had me this addicted since the first time I picked up Dragonlance, Dune or The Elric Saga.

 

[Boaz]

Commonmind, welcome. Martin also hooked me in the first few pages. I think this happened for two reasons... there may be more, but I'm not conscious of them. First, he hit the ground running. He did not endlessly explain things. Martin assumed I had a good memory and a mind to engage with his characters... and so he was able to launch the story and I could use my imagination and memory to fill in the gaps as I read.

Second, Martin is a clear and perceptive writer. The viewpoints from different characters were dramatically and drastically different from each other. By telling the whole story from multiple perspectives, Martin gave me great insight into many characters. I felt that I really was getting inside information on the insided story. But this also allows Martin to hide parts of his story with other characters and to obfuscate certain future events. For example, the multiple Stark perspectives in AGOT set up a certain mindset for me that Martin later demolished by introducing Jaime's POV. Martin's clarity also extends to the real conversation between characters. His use of drama, romance, vengeance, anger, subterfuge, and humor in dialogue is very well done. The only seemingly forced lines come from Pyp's put downs of Grenn... but it's obvious that these low IQ remarks are exactly what Martin intended. When you compare Pyp's attempts at humor to Tyrion's, Dolorous Edd's, Littlefinger's, and the Queen of Thorns' (to mention a few) you see that Martin obviously knows how to write comedy.

All that being said, if you like ASOIAF, then I think you'd also like...

<Boaz glances around and notices Aegon lurking.>

Ahem, what I meant was Welcome! and enjoy your stay.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

<Boaz glances around and notices Aegon lurking.>

Ahem, what I meant was Welcome! and enjoy your stay.

You know this got such a laugh out of me that I typed out a two paragraph response explaining it.....then I realized I was actually doing your promotion for you.....so not only willI not explain the joke, but I also will not mention the author or title. But I will say I did enjoy it......and whenever Boaz types out his recommendation consider it seconded.

Still chortling.....

 

[Weasel Soup]

Out of curiousity who is Jams Clavell? Im not familiar with the author.

 

[Commonmind]

Thanks for the response Boaz. As for that recommendation...?

<wringing hands anxiously>

 

[Boaz]

I typed out a two paragraph response explaining it.....then I realized I was actually doing your promotion for you.....so not only willI not explain the joke, but I also will not mention the author or title. But I will say I did enjoy it......and whenever Boaz types out his recommendation consider it seconded.

I almost got Aegon to recommend it for me? Wow.

Commonmind, I can't say it. Aegon will beat me unmercifully! All I can say is to look for other New Reader/Recommendation threads and you'll see my recommendation.

(This is running joke between Aegon and I. I keep recommending a certain book and he keeps posting "Wow, I have not seen that recommendation in ten minutes, I wonder if that book is still any good.")

I can't believe that Aegon actually admitted that he liked the unmentioned book.

 

[Commonmind]

So as not to rouse the Aegonian Wraith, I will not mention the name, only that it's already on my read and reread often list, as well as the mini-series which I watch often enough (along with King Solomon's Mine; I was a big Richard Chamberlain fanatic; Harrison Ford be damned) to be considered a fan.

 

[Boaz]

I was a big Richard Chamberlain fanatic; Harrison Ford be damned

Okay, so I'm not a big fan of Air Force One, Patriot Games or much of the non-Indiana Jones/Han Solo stuff of Mr. Ford. BUT, (and it's a big one) you have commited blasephemy!

Aegon, get your shoes ready to throw! Chastise this unbeliever!

Commonmind, seriously, I'd look through some of the other forums here. Just browse other's recommendations and read lists. You might get some good ideas.

The reason I would recommend the book (where Mr. Chamberlain starred in the mini-series) is that it's about the political machinations of the powerful for control of a nation, but the story is told from the perspectives of various minor players and pawns. I'd be very interested to ask Mr. Martin is he has read the unmentioned book and if that book was an influence at all. I'd also like to ask Mr. Martin what books did influence ASOIAF.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im throwing whatever I have at hand on this one....and if you knew what I do for a living, that may or may not scare you more.....

Harrison Ford be damned? I say Richard Chamberlain is a talentless hack compared to Mr Ford. A talentless hack I say, not even capable of wiping Mr Fords lickspittle in his doddering old age. This is Indiana freakin Jones we're talking about here....do you understand me? Indiana freakin Jones!!!!....do I need to type this slower so you can keep up? Indiana freakin Jones!!!?! Good god man, lesser statements deriding Mr Ford have gotten men castrated before, I shudder, shudder to think what could happen if you uttered this sentiment in any place but the internet.

I will not even begin the Han freakin Solo defense. It would literally flay the skin from your flesh and leave you whimpering alone, afraid of your own shadow and youre new so I will not do that to you.....on the provision you retract that statement immediately and with all due haste.

I say....Good day to you Sir....

 

[Commonmind]

Okay, so I'm not a big fan of Air Force One, Patriot Games or much of the non-Indiana Jones/Han Solo stuff of Mr. Ford. BUT, (and it's a big one) you have commited blasephemy!

Aegon, get your shoes ready to throw! Chastise this unbeliever!

Don't let your feathers get all ruffled. I'm actually a fan of Ford, but as a fan of the Quatermain movies as well as a fan of the original King Solomon's Mine stories I was more or less picking at Indiana Jones for overshadowing what I thought to be great movies in their own right.

Commonmind, seriously, I'd look through some of the other forums here. Just browse other's recommendations and read lists. You might get some good ideas.

The reason I would recommend the book (where Mr. Chamberlain starred in the mini-series) is that it's about the political machinations of the powerful for control of a nation, but the story is told from the perspectives of various minor players and pawns. I'd be very interested to ask Mr. Martin is he has read the unmentioned book and if that book was an influence at all. I'd also like to ask Mr. Martin what books did influence ASOIAF.

I've tried to keep my browsing down to posting in the threads I've made. Too many of the forums associated with other authors I might be reading (or plan to read through recommendation) are riddled with spoilers or even topic titles that give key plot points away. I haven't delved deep enough into ASoIaF to see any similarities between it and the not-afformentioned novel, but if he weaves a tale of the same styling it will definitely be a great read. There's nothing more satisfying than discovering a story which stands on its own with intrigue and the like and doesn't require contrived plot devices to make the story interesting for the average reader.

If I may make a recommendation of my own, if you haven't already read it that is (I haven't met many J.C. fans that haven't crossed paths with this book as well), pick up The Egyptian by Mika Waltari (spelling?). You may find it swallows you whole and spits you out a rabid fan.