Making a Fantasy world...

[Mirannan]

BetaWolf - That's sorta what I meant. If you can find a copy of Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" you will find a very different take on elves, and much closer to their roots in traditional mythology, than that of Tolkein. The problem with Tolkein is that LOTR is such a great work that it tends to obscure what has gone before. The current interpretation of elves as tall, noble immortals who mostly live in forests, and dwarves as equally noble, short people who live underground is Tolkein. In traditional sources, both races are a great deal less pleasant.

One idea I've seen suggested is to take some vaguely likely animal and boost its intelligence (and possibly manual dexterity) and give it the power of speech or some communication method of similar usefulness, and see what happens. Example: What would the society of sapient raccoons be like?

 

[BetaWolf]

Nordic dwarves are cool in their own right. Tolkien writes dwarves closer to these in the Silmarilion, who were key in the destruction of Doriath. But that episode was inspired by the Volsung saga.

What I think Elves should represent in fantasy in general is the Elder Race, those who dominated before humans. This is rather how they appear in traditional folklore and before that mythology. H P Lovecraft like Tolkien put forward this idea (among others--Michael Moorcock, R. Howard, most lately GRRM)--in his own fashion.

To take your suggestion, Mirannan, David Brin has his Uplift books. So humans become the Elder Race in a fashion, which can be a way to go. The bottom line is that more than one race of intelligent more-or-less-mortal beings exists in your fantasy.

 

[LittleStar]

Personally, I find the high fantasy of elves and dwarves etc, completely cliche now. And as most everyone here has said you have to find something unique and engaging about your world or characters/races, woodland elves and cave dwelling dwarves just don't do this.

I don't think I'd enjoy a book that used them in such plain terms, or at least not if it wasn't spectacularly written. Even Tolkien I think I have a hard time enjoying, undeniably a classic and did wonders for the genre, (and writing/creativity in general) but the fact that all elves were woodland Demigods, who loved nature, the fact that all dwarves were greedy and gold hungry (With the exception of the characters we came to know perhaps). But my point is Races as a single entity or character just doesn't sit right in a realistic world, there are always individual traits governing above species. Why not make Elrond a bit or an ass who beats Arwen, or have Gimli wearing pink and putting flowers in his hair (again not nessecarily these characters as we new them individually, but others). Not all people from Britain can sail a boat, and not all French guys can rock climb. Not all Americans know how to play guitar, such generalisation is wildly inaccurate.
I recall a line from Eragon(I won't get started on that though) when he was beat his mentor(name escapes me) for the first time in a sword fight... And completely out of the blue the guy says, just remember if you ever fight an elf, you'll get thrashed... Where's the fat elves that sit on their hands reading fantasy books about guys from a wierd town called London. Surely they don't have time for swordplay...
My first attempt at a fantasy book was using these characters, (I was13-14 and hadn't entirely discovered my dislike(?) of these set tropes) but I flipped them completely, eleves were awful guys, bullies and thieves, murderes etc. Dwarves did live in the towns and were just regular guys, if shorter, out to make a living or have fun, provide for their families...

This got a little more extensive and ranty than I was expecting, and I apologise, but it's closing now, my point is if you really want to do something with these characters you have to break the mould, you have to be realistic within a world setting. Very few stories or authors I think can get away with complete segregation of their species just because that's where they live. That's not how a world works.
If you are spending so much time building and fleshing out this whole world, then go a little deeper, species spread and invariably interact, so why don't the eleves live in the cities with the humans, or why are the dwarves setting up blacksmith and gem cutting businesses in the towns? Or if there are racial dislike reasons for the segregation, why the elves solely live in the forests of Endor then go into their culture more, give them individuality and a history that isnt just this king ruled until they fought with humans... More than likely there would be some jealousy from that kings nephew, long before they met humans, and then a civil war would ensue, splitting the forest in two regions, and then form there they settle into different states, there would be elves that would 'take out the rubbish' there would be booky elves to advise, there would be strong and stupid elves to fight on the front lines.

You get my point. The crux of my post is, in my honest opinion, races cannot be characters!


EDIT: Ha... Who knew when thinking of random words for forest names my fingers would type Endor

 

[AMB]

LittleStar: Not all Tolkien elves are 'woodland Demigods'. The history of the elves starts off with them as one homogeneous group, waking together in the dark of the world (which is why they love the stars above all things), but they split off into a number of very different cultures (there is even some kin slaying!).

Since most of the elves are in the West, and both the Hobbit and LotR take us east, you don't see much of them, just the ones who have made their homes in Mirkwood and Lorien. I would say that the Mirkwood elves are very different from the Lorien and Rivendell elves; they are practically a race apart in origin, and behave very differently in the books. Legolas and his father share more in common with the Rivendell/Lorien folk than the rest of their people, but Thranduil himself his avaricious on a scale that rivals the dwarves, and the elves of Mirkwood spend a lot of time underground.

The Silmarillion goes into great depth on the history of the different groups of elves. Can't remember if the dwarves got similar treatment, but considering their origin I'm not sure they had quite as much scope for cultural variation.

I would recommend the Silmarillion to anyone thinking of extensive world building. You don't have to necessarily enjoy it, just think of it as a case study.

But as for populating your own fantasy, I agree with others about going back to the myths and folklore. Of course, they often have mono-cultured races...

 

[Toby Frost]

The thing is, most people with a non-enthusiast knowledge of Tolkien only know the Lord of the Rings, and I don't think they can be blamed for that. I certainly don't want to read much more Tolkien than those three books and The Hobbit. I don't dislike his works, I just have other books to read as well.

Besides, it's not really what Tolkien did that's the problem, but the way that his works have been simplified and caricatured. I'm not sure it really matters what happens in the slightly more obscure works, since the popular conception of elves is the point, as filtered through games and derivative books, to the point where they are woodland demigods and dwarves like ale, gold and beards.

 

[AMB]

Fairy snuff.

Still, the Mirkwood vs Lorien elves difference between the Hobbit and LotR I think notably obvious, particularly as the Rivendell elves appear to be the same in both, leading me to believe it didn't have anything to do with the target age groups. But I would agree it isn't so much Tolkien as what others did after.

As for older sources, I suppose you could take creatures like pwca and hobgoblins, brownies and boggarts and all such manner of beings and decide if they are different races, or different subsets/cultures of the same race. Then build them into something else to fit your world. Or do something else again.

 

[LittleStar]

I have read extensively of the history of tolkiens world (several times actually lol), And though I havent read the silmarillion, i feel as they are new characters, I can't imagine that anyone would publish a work if they were all identical I understand the ideas of cultural similarities, like the stars you mentioned, but still feel there should be individualism within the cultures.
I had overlooked the mirkwood elves, I must say, and that is a good example of what I would be interested in reading rather than blanket personalities.

Tolkien perhaps wasn't the best example I could have used, but the point remains I think. You are both right I think the fault can't be all blamed on one writer, there have been dozens of writings since that have been guilty of this 'blanketing' of his imaginings; and indeed, their own.

The problem with trying what I have proposed, is perhaps that it is such a vast amount if work to do, the forgotten realms I think would be one of the pinnacles for individuality within races, but how many people are working on this world?
While being vastly difficult and time consuming, I think it's worhwile spending even a small amount of time thinking and working out something which would add such richness and realism.

At least that's what I aim to achieve in my writings

 

[Gumboot]

Is there an easy place to check this out? I recently came up for a name for a race, then googled it and found it appears to be known in Dungeons and Dragons circles. But I don't know if anyone owns it.

You can't copyright words of phrases; copyright only applies to the expression of an idea, and tweaking that expression just a little can render the copyright irrelevant. What you want to look for are Trademarks. These have to be registered, and you can look them up via your government trademark registry.

 

[Gumboot]

The Silmarillion goes into great depth on the history of the different groups of elves. Can't remember if the dwarves got similar treatment, but considering their origin I'm not sure they had quite as much scope for cultural variation.

There's seven "clans" of Dwarves but culturally they're all more or less the same - being a direct metaphor for the Jews. All of the Dwarves and Dwarf kingdoms that are mentioned in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are of one clan, descended from Durin.

 

[stygianelectro]

If, of course, you are a reincarnation of Tolkein - then ignore this. However, and no offense meant, that is rather unlikely.

I am Tolkien reborn.

 

[stygianelectro]

I am Tolkien reborn.

Please ignore this. My younger self was rather arrogant, I'm sad to say. Hopefully not so much anymore

 

[Darkranger85]

I started my fantasy world by laying the foundation of a pantheon. A family tree of the gods and how they related to each other.

This gave me my inspiration for the story that I wanted to tell.

And if your story has a deep religious feel to it, kind of like the Forgotten Realms series of books, this can be a source of lore that deepens your world.

But, that's just my take on it.