Beloved Fan
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Didn't Fitz say that The Fool wasn't fully human when he entered his body to bring him back to life? Or am I remembering it wrong? If so, I doubt the the Fool had any gender at all.
The Fool's Gender? (possible spoilers)
- Thread starter Teir
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The Pale Woman was definitely female and she told Fitz that The Fool was a male.
Never really seen his gender as being ambiguous, myself.
shadow-rat
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I think that, as the Fool is not human, he may well be neither gender as we know it. I think of his personality as being more effeminite man than woman, but that it was easy enough for him to pick up the "guise" of a woman as Amber.
However, Amber DOES seem to have an intricate knowledge of women pretending to be men when she helps Althea to get ready for her life as ship's boy... She even tells her how to hide her periods and stuff LOL but then a eunuch/non-human effeminite male may well know about that stuff too, so that doesn't really mean too much...
That's my rambling bit of nonsense, anyway!!
Shadow xx
However, Amber DOES seem to have an intricate knowledge of women pretending to be men when she helps Althea to get ready for her life as ship's boy... She even tells her how to hide her periods and stuff LOL but then a eunuch/non-human effeminite male may well know about that stuff too, so that doesn't really mean too much...
That's my rambling bit of nonsense, anyway!!
Shadow xx
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Just an observation on The Fools Character:-
~~~~~
Gentle - hated violence
Carpenter
Healed Fitz by the laying on of hands
Was 'crucified' upon the wall of the pale womans chamber whilst she entranced Fitz
Sacrificed himself for the greater good of the world
Was resurrected by Fitz
~~~~~
Does this remind you of anyone???
~~~~~
Gentle - hated violence
Carpenter
Healed Fitz by the laying on of hands
Was 'crucified' upon the wall of the pale womans chamber whilst she entranced Fitz
Sacrificed himself for the greater good of the world
Was resurrected by Fitz
~~~~~
Does this remind you of anyone???
Beloved Fan
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Well, Ratsy, maybe Robin didn't think of it either, but I thought I'd just put it across as food for thought, although, I'm sure Jesus didn't dress up at any time as a woman
ratsy
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Well, Ratsy, maybe Robin didn't think of it either, but I thought I'd just put it across as food for thought, although, I'm sure Jesus didn't dress up at any time as a woman
He did sport some long hair though...but if the fool had a beard I don't think we could discount the possibility of comparing him to the "Messiah"...and we wouldnt be having this "Fools Gender" forum
Lioness
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Reviving this back to the gender topic...
I originally believed wholeheartedly (after only reading Farseer and Tawny Man) that the fool is a man. However, I recently read the Liveship trilogy, and it's thrown a whole new light onto things. To me, Amber is a very convincing woman, if a bit odd.
I'm still about 60% sure he's a guy though.
Firstly, though he is a bit effeminate, nothing is overly feminine. E.g. he doesn't lapse into PMS...doesn't fuss overly much about anything. He generally just doesn't feel female. Even in liveship, Amber was a bit of a manly girl. She wasn't overly affectionate, she kept to herself a lot, and liked privacy, which is understandable if she's trying to hide her gender.
Then there is the thing with Laurel in Fool's Errand. It doesn't say they do anything, but Fitz seems pretty convinced that they do, and she does stay in his room (though that proves nothing, it still could be something). He's pretty handy at wooing the ladies too, though that may come from a simple observation of others.
As for him being a woman, well...there is the problem of Althea disguising herself as a man, and how thoroughly Amber was able to help. Didn't she have Jek's assistance though? Jek seems like the sort of woman who would've disguised herself at some point.
There is also that, as a man, The Fool seems to require a lot more privacy than he does as Amber.
To me, Amber is a more convincing character than the Fool. Her statements seem more feminine, whereas The Fool's seem rather genderless. The Fool has no character. He is whoever he wants to be. As a result, I don't see either The Fool or Lord Golden as constant characters. I expect them to jump into being something else at a moments notice. This makes me think rather oddly of them.
I know all of my 'evidence' makes it seem more toward the feminine side, I have a gut feeling that he is a guy, and I will probably be very disappointed if he isn't (even if just because I'll lose the ongoing argument with my boyfriend).
I originally believed wholeheartedly (after only reading Farseer and Tawny Man) that the fool is a man. However, I recently read the Liveship trilogy, and it's thrown a whole new light onto things. To me, Amber is a very convincing woman, if a bit odd.
I'm still about 60% sure he's a guy though.
Firstly, though he is a bit effeminate, nothing is overly feminine. E.g. he doesn't lapse into PMS...doesn't fuss overly much about anything. He generally just doesn't feel female. Even in liveship, Amber was a bit of a manly girl. She wasn't overly affectionate, she kept to herself a lot, and liked privacy, which is understandable if she's trying to hide her gender.
Then there is the thing with Laurel in Fool's Errand. It doesn't say they do anything, but Fitz seems pretty convinced that they do, and she does stay in his room (though that proves nothing, it still could be something). He's pretty handy at wooing the ladies too, though that may come from a simple observation of others.
As for him being a woman, well...there is the problem of Althea disguising herself as a man, and how thoroughly Amber was able to help. Didn't she have Jek's assistance though? Jek seems like the sort of woman who would've disguised herself at some point.
There is also that, as a man, The Fool seems to require a lot more privacy than he does as Amber.
To me, Amber is a more convincing character than the Fool. Her statements seem more feminine, whereas The Fool's seem rather genderless. The Fool has no character. He is whoever he wants to be. As a result, I don't see either The Fool or Lord Golden as constant characters. I expect them to jump into being something else at a moments notice. This makes me think rather oddly of them.
I know all of my 'evidence' makes it seem more toward the feminine side, I have a gut feeling that he is a guy, and I will probably be very disappointed if he isn't (even if just because I'll lose the ongoing argument with my boyfriend).
Alexa
traveller space dreamer
It just crossed my mind. What if the privacy The Fool& Amber searched for was only because of the tatoes on his/her back ?
I can only visualise the Fool as a man and would hate him to be otherwise. Because he's so good at maintaining his privacy we will always wonder but I agree that the tattoos episode explains a lot as he had kept them hidden all his life, not just from Fitz but everyone else too. Also, his knowledge of women would be superior to most males as he's such a gifted observer of life. We mustn't forget that he was probably about 50 during Liveships, if not older, so think of the amount of knowledge he would have acquired over those years!
Alexa
traveller space dreamer
If my memory is right, 50 years is still young for his race. I don't remember the age of the Black man on Aslevjal Isle, but I think he had a few hundred years. (I hope I got it right with the names. If not, please note that I read the trilogie in French). So the Fool can continue his adventures in other volumes if Robin Hobb wants to.
And welcome to the Chrons, Ella !
Overread
Searching for a flower
True, though if I recall right the Fool and the Black man were going to both return to their people for a time - things have to be corrected and I think he still has to reveal to them that he is the white prophet and that it was not the other (or that there were two and he won ). So we might not see him/her/it for a while as yet, but certainly there is scope for more fool
Also whilst more Farseer and Liveships books would be great - as well as maybe some from other lands, a part of me hopes that Hobb won't take things massivly into the future with the series. Often when that happens one gets a tale based on the first, but with a lot of big changes and in the end it feels like they (the author) wanted to (or should have) started a whole new world and series, but that they have stuck it onto the end of the old one (for what ever reason - though often I wonder if its not publishers after "another farseer book")
). So we might not see him/her/it for a while as yet, but certainly there is scope for more fool Also whilst more Farseer and Liveships books would be great - as well as maybe some from other lands, a part of me hopes that Hobb won't take things massivly into the future with the series. Often when that happens one gets a tale based on the first, but with a lot of big changes and in the end it feels like they (the author) wanted to (or should have) started a whole new world and series, but that they have stuck it onto the end of the old one (for what ever reason - though often I wonder if its not publishers after "another farseer book")
Alexa
traveller space dreamer
I agree. At least we can still imagine what the Fool could be. Unless, Robin Hobb can find a solution and create another trilogy with the Fool story. It has to be something very different and complementary in the same time.
I believe that the Fool is male.
Fitz did see him unclothed, as he was found only with a sackcloth (adhered to his naked back) in the refuse chamber of the Pale Woman's dungeons.
Fitz carried him to where the stone dragons were sleeping, and as the Fool's body defrosted, Fitz cleaned him, removed the sackcloth, washed his body with leaves and clean grass, then built a pyre, and layed out his body on the pyre, straightening his arms and legs as much as he was able (still some rigor mortis in the Fool's body).
There would be NO WAY he could lay him on the pyre naked and not be able to tell the Fool's gender.
It was only after Fitz exchanged bodies to heal the Fool did Fitz realize how different the Fool was to humans, as much as humans were different from wolves.
Fitz never re-clothed the Fool. The Fool fell asleep on his mattress (the former pyre with Fitz's cloak spread on it), then Fitz set up the Elderling tent, placing the Elderling robe inside, then when the insects started to attack the Fool's body, carried the Fool inside the Elderling tent. Later, the Fool came back from the stream wet, wearing the Elderling robe.
The Fool is male. He was a consummate actor, he had several different facets of himself that he showed to different people, he never limited himself by gender and therefore was able to reveal all facets of himself both feminine and masculine, although there was little enough of the masculine. I believe that he was bisexual but unwilling to enter a physical relationship with someone unless he was in love with them and who was also willing (as per his argument with Fitz in Golden Fool). The Fool hints at a prior sexual relationship, but doesn't confirm it. He only states that Fitz thinks that the Fool has never known "intimacy of that sort" but then states "you think I was saving myself for you. Don't flatter yourself Fitz, I doubt you would have been worth the wait." This does not reveal that the Fool has definitely been intimate with another. It was an insult, that was all.
Either he loved someone in the past, prior to his arrival to Buckkeep, or the Fool had never been intimate with another.
The Pale Woman believed he was male, and she knew him as a child.
The Pale Woman believed she could provide Fitz with a child (which is what he desperately wanted, even though he would never have one of his own to raise).
Why if Fitz loved Molly (which was ridiculous and and adolescent obsession), why couldn't he have both the Fool and Molly? Would Molly be so shallow to resent the Fool? Why? Fitz didn't want a physical relationship to the Fool, it was disgusting to him. Why couldn't he have a close relationship with both? Molly for the physical relationship and the Fool for the emotional and intellectual relationship?
Fitz did see him unclothed, as he was found only with a sackcloth (adhered to his naked back) in the refuse chamber of the Pale Woman's dungeons.
Fitz carried him to where the stone dragons were sleeping, and as the Fool's body defrosted, Fitz cleaned him, removed the sackcloth, washed his body with leaves and clean grass, then built a pyre, and layed out his body on the pyre, straightening his arms and legs as much as he was able (still some rigor mortis in the Fool's body).
There would be NO WAY he could lay him on the pyre naked and not be able to tell the Fool's gender.
It was only after Fitz exchanged bodies to heal the Fool did Fitz realize how different the Fool was to humans, as much as humans were different from wolves.
Fitz never re-clothed the Fool. The Fool fell asleep on his mattress (the former pyre with Fitz's cloak spread on it), then Fitz set up the Elderling tent, placing the Elderling robe inside, then when the insects started to attack the Fool's body, carried the Fool inside the Elderling tent. Later, the Fool came back from the stream wet, wearing the Elderling robe.
The Fool is male. He was a consummate actor, he had several different facets of himself that he showed to different people, he never limited himself by gender and therefore was able to reveal all facets of himself both feminine and masculine, although there was little enough of the masculine. I believe that he was bisexual but unwilling to enter a physical relationship with someone unless he was in love with them and who was also willing (as per his argument with Fitz in Golden Fool). The Fool hints at a prior sexual relationship, but doesn't confirm it. He only states that Fitz thinks that the Fool has never known "intimacy of that sort" but then states "you think I was saving myself for you. Don't flatter yourself Fitz, I doubt you would have been worth the wait." This does not reveal that the Fool has definitely been intimate with another. It was an insult, that was all.
Either he loved someone in the past, prior to his arrival to Buckkeep, or the Fool had never been intimate with another.
The Pale Woman believed he was male, and she knew him as a child.
The Pale Woman believed she could provide Fitz with a child (which is what he desperately wanted, even though he would never have one of his own to raise).
Why if Fitz loved Molly (which was ridiculous and and adolescent obsession), why couldn't he have both the Fool and Molly? Would Molly be so shallow to resent the Fool? Why? Fitz didn't want a physical relationship to the Fool, it was disgusting to him. Why couldn't he have a close relationship with both? Molly for the physical relationship and the Fool for the emotional and intellectual relationship?
Overread
Searching for a flower
Because deep down I think the Fool wanted more and I'm sure he mentions this near the end of the last book - not in a direct way, but in a manner that says that he knows he would never get a closer relationship with Fitz. In addition there was the fact of his own people that he wished to solve which, although an excuse to escape in some ways, did require him to leave Fitz.
Also whilst we are reasonably certain that he is indeed male at the end of the book we are less sure when it comes to his time in the Liveship Traders and at the end of the first trillogy when he first goes through one of his changes. I forget her name but the minstral (SP) at the time stated that the Fool was female (in her belief) and there is the whole female persona that he uses in the Liveship Trillogy - granted he makes some excuse that it is some cover that only a female person could get as close as he needed to be, but I beg to differ that it was so much a cover. If it was his change might very well have been in anticipation of that need and might explain his somewhat snarky and insulting manner nearer the end of the first trillogy.
Also whilst we are reasonably certain that he is indeed male at the end of the book we are less sure when it comes to his time in the Liveship Traders and at the end of the first trillogy when he first goes through one of his changes. I forget her name but the minstral (SP) at the time stated that the Fool was female (in her belief) and there is the whole female persona that he uses in the Liveship Trillogy - granted he makes some excuse that it is some cover that only a female person could get as close as he needed to be, but I beg to differ that it was so much a cover. If it was his change might very well have been in anticipation of that need and might explain his somewhat snarky and insulting manner nearer the end of the first trillogy.
Dale R
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All said and done, whether Hobb never really decided herself, or meant for the fool's gender to be a mystery, she has used it so cleverly and kept it going over nine books and still we aren't REALLY sure, and still want to read more! I've always swayed from one to the other with the fool. But i don't think i want to know. When we find out, I think that will mean it's all over.
Teir
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And wow. 4/5 years later and my little rant is still going I was about 18 when I started this!
I now feel the need to say that I appreciate the sense of mystery that is his gender. Going on from what Dale R said, the whole concept of not knowing extends the possibilities.And I feel that the whole concept of the shifting perception, of the exotic unknown and the tantalising mystery really epitomises 'The Fool' and everything he is
Saying that, in my head he is still very firmly male and always will be
I was about 18 when I started this! I now feel the need to say that I appreciate the sense of mystery that is his gender. Going on from what Dale R said, the whole concept of not knowing extends the possibilities.And I feel that the whole concept of the shifting perception, of the exotic unknown and the tantalising mystery really epitomises 'The Fool' and everything he is
Saying that, in my head he is still very firmly male and always will be
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