Back again for general obs - 1340AD (690 words)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Phyrebrat

www.beanwriting.com
Supporter
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Messages
6,010
Location
In your bedroom wardrobe...
I've been cracking on with my WIP which if you've had a look at any of my rambles here lately, you'll know has narrative sections across different historical eras. I'm happy with the comments I've been given in the previous crits and would appreciate more of the same on the following excerpt.

I'm more after the obvious jump-out anachronisms that I may have overlooked, although all the words I've been unsure of I vetted using etymology site etymonline.com.

Not really after line edit-y stuff, and of course I'm working first draft, but I'm putting these historic sections up because I want to keep on the right course.

Background: the church from 1178, evolved to an abbey and is now a leper colony tended to by Benedictine monks; Henry Shielde has made a shady arrangement with the Benedictine abbot Firmin to obtain the land so as to form a mutual trading post (The abbot thinks he will be getting a backhander but Sheilde has other plans...). This section introduces that (is that obvious in the text?) and the tension between the pig farmers and Shielde. I'm guessing the dialogue and characters are going to confuse, not least because I mention 6 under the tree, but only show 4 talking. (Also, if anyone can find the name of what cider is drunk from I'd be interested as I'm sure it has a special name and need to see if they were in use around 1340s.) Oh, and I made the name of barkskin herald up because 'leprosy herald' sounded so prosaic and tell-y.

____________________________________________________________________________

Henry Shielde watched the shambling mob disgorge from the side of the old church in revulsion; no amount of boiling would clean the grimed and unsanitary cream rags that shrouded each of them. They slowed, directed by some imperceptible signal, and the trembling one at the front, the barkskin herald, pawed at his - or her - side and slipped a mitted hand inside the folds to withdraw a wooden rattle. It fumbled with the thing, its filthy linen-covered stumps eventually managing to grasp it. The beggardly procession resumed, the herald shaking the castanet, warning those few people working the strips and lynchets immediately surrounding the colony to beware.

They exited the shade of the church, into full sunlight, their pestilent robes a calico jumble of red and brown smudges. The mob became a line which shuffled between the colony houses on the generous emerald plain, approaching the gap in the low henge marking the abbey’s boundary. Although a light summer breeze was blowing away from him, Henry moved back and ascended the higher of the henge mounds, covering his nose and mouth with a cloth bag, loosely filled with angelica and rosemary, until the procession had passed. Up to two-score of them marched, yet none of the cowled figures acknowledged his presence apart from the monk at the rear who looked up and nodded at Henry.

He dropped his head letting loose curls of sandy hair fall over his eyes and shifted his footing so his back was to the line of the sick. From this angle he could see the plains arranged in slim irregular strips like rills on the beaches of Lour Dene, the abbey hospital behind him like a stain on linen, out of place; a blot that prevented excellent land being worked for fear of contagion.

After a while the lepers shuffled out of sight, and all that remained of their presence was the clattering alarm of the herald. Henry descended the mound and stole inside to meet Firmin.

###

Afterwards, he walked back to his own strips, assessing his mean wheat crops and cursing the hospital's presence on such valuable land. The crop, although satisfactory, would barely justify his efforts after the middlemen had bitten into his yield. The limited land he had would seem far more profitable without the pawing brokers and he hoped his plan with the abbot and the others would come to fruition before the winter harvest was due. He kicked at the dry husks of wheat and straw by the perimeter of the strip.
The land is bone dry. This is most propitious, he thought and went to find the others.

‘Our share is bound to be larger, Shielde, there are three of us!’ Perke said and slapped a boney hand on the oak's huge trunk under which the six of them stood.
‘Yet we are wanting of the presence of two of yours,’ Henry replied.
‘I would not expect a grain huckster to understand the demands placed on us swine farmers,’ Perke said, through a sneer. ‘They are tending to their… flock.’
‘Please, friends, let us start as we mean to proceed,’ de Gros said, putting his hands on both Shielde and Perke’s shoulders. ‘This guild will be of no use if we cannot work together with grace.’
‘We cannot work with grace if we do not have equal shares, Maurice,’ Henry said. ‘We might as well remain indentured to the lords.’
‘What would you recommend, Henry? Do you not wish the other two part of this union? Two rope makers, two of us, but three swine farmers is too many?’
‘And I number only one,’ said Walter Webb.
Henry turned to the net maker. ‘Webb, I did not bring forth this arrangement with the abbot so we could be directed by swineherd!’
‘ ‘Ere’s a tank to the day that happens!’ Roper said with a laugh before swigging deeply from his cider.
‘As well you know it will not, Henry. None shall let that day come,’ Maurice de Gros said, eyeing each of them. ‘We are equals, each, in share and status, all.’
 
Well, even before I saw you'd used the word "tank" to refer to it, I thought the word you were looking for would be "tankard", which Merriam-Webster says dates from the 14th century, so you're right on target if so.

Oops, looking it over, British History Online says that the usage of tankard meaning a drinking vessel dates from 1485. From 1300, it meant any sort of wooden vessel, like a tub.
 
Last edited:
The first section repeats too much that the people in robes are dirty. If your POV character is a farmer, will he really focus on that detail? Why not simply tell us that they are lepers? Anyone of the period will be suitably horrified by the sight of them. Also, your POV character is completely passive - he simply watches, for the benefit of the reader. You could make your POV character more dynamic and strengthen the story. Save the Cat is a great short book that goes into this.

Your second section lacks structure to me - it seems to hurry into telling us the POV character's assessment of his land, without showing much of him at work. Then in jumps into discussion about an issue of conflict - without really establishing that conflict in the first place. Again, the cat book may help with that. IMO you're still missing something to set up what follows.

But - these are early days yet. I can't wait for you to read the Follet books - I still think they can give you potential insight into directions you can take this.
 
Just a couple mildly confusing bits.
Henry Shielde watched (with revulsion) as the shambling mob disgorged from the side of the old church in revulsion (the mob is revulsed?); no amount of boiling would clean the grimed and unsanitary cream rags that shrouded each of them. They slowed, directed by some imperceptible signal, and the trembling one at the front, the barkskin herald, pawed at his - or her - side and slipped a mitted hand inside the folds to withdraw a wooden rattle. (It...) the rattle?) fumbled with the thing, its filthy linen-covered stumps eventually managing to grasp it (the rattle is 'it' by the end of the sentence). The beggardly procession resumed, the herald shaking the castanet, warning those few people working the strips and lynchets immediately surrounding the colony to beware.
 
Well, even before I saw you'd used the word "tank" to refer to it, I thought the word you were looking for would be "tankard", which Merriam-Webster says dates from the 14th century, so you're right on target if so.

Oops, looking it over, British History Online says that the usage of tankard meaning a drinking vessel dates from 1485. From 1300, it meant any sort of wooden vessel, like a tub.

Thanks TDZ, I figured tankard would be somewhere in the ball park but it suggests something heavy and pewter and so I made up tank in the hope it'd be clear. I can't really imagine someone lugging an open-topped mug around, and I just didn't the idea of a flask or wine bag thing. Besides I can imagine Roper saying tank because he's such a p*** head. ;)

(1) The first section repeats too much that the people in robes are dirty....
(2) Why not simply tell us that they are lepers?
(3) Anyone of the period will be suitably horrified by the sight of them.
(4)...your POV character is completely passive - he simply watches, for the benefit of the reader. You could make your POV character more dynamic and strengthen the story...
(5) Save the Cat is a great short book that goes into this.
(6)... assessment of his land, without showing much of him at work. Then in jumps into discussion about an issue of conflict - without really establishing that conflict in the first place.
(7) But - these are early days yet. I can't wait for you to read the Follet books - I still think they can give you potential insight into directions you can take this.

Thanks Brian, you've given me so many comments, I hope you don't mind me numbering them; also I hope you don;t mind me picking your mind over this so much;

1) Noted, I do labour the point a bit don't I? I'll slice and dice ;)
2) I could, but I think I'd be missing a trick if I did that. I believe it's incumbent on horror writers to create a mounting sense of dread or discomfort. However, I'd concede it's a fine line. I don't like reading brutal Hemmingway-esque narratives in horror that drag the reader by the nose without time to feel that sense of dread that mounts from a false sense of security. The scene is only 690 words long. I think after the judicial cuts to the rag description, there'll be even less. Am I really pushing a reader's patience in that regard?
3) From my research, there was a balance of pity and repulsion at lepers, and many people donated to the hospitals. When Shielde later burns the houses down, there is an outcry from the nearby town.
4) I need Shielde to be passive in the sense that he is waiting for the abbey to be clear so he can have his clandestine meeting with the Abbot, Fermin. I could have him turning up expecting the place to be empty as the community were supposed to be out on their morning constitutional, but to what point other than to introduce an unneeded complication. When you say more dynamic, what kind of thing do you think he should be doing? Do you think it comes across as an info dump? Is it a simple case of having him hiding out of sight, do you think?
5) OT, for a mo, but I'll have to admit I'm no fan of Save the Cat. I bought it a year or so ago after seeing it recommended here but I find it far too inflexible and prescriptive and doesn't allow for the nuances that apply to writing and not blockbuster movies. And that's the other thing about the book, he references his own movies far too often throughout - most of which I have never heard of - and he talks in terms of commercial blockbusters. I think it's probably a good read for screenwriters who have an hour and a half to get a story across effectively, whereas a reader has (cough, if you're a slow one like me, cough) a month. It certainly doesn't work well for some genres (IMO), but has good advice on some things like ensuring tension and character goal.
6) Do you think I need to show him working? I hadn't because it's not really relevant - it's kind of backstory - he's a farmer and sick of paying brokers, I want to drop the reader in at the inciting incident which is him participating in some covert deal with the abbot. Should I make that more explicit, in your opinion? I feel it may be a bit boring to have him experiencing difficulties with the brokers and disempowerment. I was trying to cut to the chase.
7) You know, I rang them as I checked my hotmail account which I use only when I buy things online, and I had the receipt from ABEbooks, but not the actual seller! 'Oh, we haven't had your order,' which was definitely a lie if his manner was anything to go by :D Anyway, I lit a well-aimed firework at a certain part of the bookseller's anatomy and look forward to having the book within the next week. (I'm going to order the second one from a different seller.) I noticed the TV adaption is on YouTube but I think I'll wait till I have the book as it seems more suitable to what I'm trying to do.

So, all very helpful as usual, thanks. I'm actually pleased that neither of you mentioned anything anachronistic.

ETA: Thanks @J Riff - I just saw your comments. You're right, that sentence structure is horrid!

pH
 
Thanks TDZ, I figured tankard would be somewhere in the ball park but it suggests something heavy and pewter and so I made up tank in the hope it'd be clear. I can't really imagine someone lugging an open-topped mug around, and I just didn't the idea of a flask or wine bag thing. Besides I can imagine Roper saying tank because he's such a p*** head.

Yes, I think "tank" works just fine. Sorry, I thought you were looking for a different word and using that as a placeholder.
 
Henry Shielde watched the shambling mob disgorge from the side of the old church in revulsion; no amount of boiling would clean the grimed and unsanitary cream rags that shrouded each of them. They slowed, directed by some imperceptible signal, and the trembling one at the front, the barkskin herald, pawed at his - or her - side and slipped a mitted hand inside the folds to withdraw a wooden rattle. It fumbled with the thing, its filthy linen-covered stumps eventually managing to grasp it. The beggardly procession resumed, the herald shaking the castanet, warning those few people working the strips and lynchets immediately surrounding the colony to beware.

They exited the shade of the church, into full sunlight, their pestilent robes a calico jumble of red and brown smudges.
"Shambling mob" made me think of zombies (definitely not a hook for me) and drew a picture at odds with other descriptions of lepers that I've read. "Mob" is also contradicted later, by "procession".

"Cream rags" distracted me twice: firstly, because "cream" implies (at least to me) dyed cloth, and I wonder whether lepers would be able to afford dyed cloth; secondly, because "calico jumble of red and brown smudges" painted a different picture. I realised after a moment that red and brown referred to the stains from their sores, but the two descriptions gave different impressions of the predominant colour of the cloth. Incidentally, I don't think calico reached Europe until much later.

Henry's passive role doesn't worry me, but I wonder if you could make him more sinister if you didn't show his revulsion but showed him instead, standing very still with the lepers glancing nervously at him. Alternatively, you could show him standing his ground on the path, forcing the lepers to loop around him through the mud.
 
Last edited:
‘I would not expect a grain huckster to understand the demands placed on us swine farmers,’ Perke said, through a sneer. ‘They are tending to their… flock.’

I did find the last section slightly confusing. In particular, I had to read these sentences twice in context, to be sure that Perke was not sneering at the "they", who were tending their flock. This was compounded by the use of the word "flock", which I associate with animals that flock together. Pigs, in contrast, can be herded together with difficulty and may swarm towards food, but I don't think they ever flock. Possibly I'm prejudiced; my encounters with pigs have been negative at best and, at worst, frightening. As a further digression, I once read that pigs could be tried for murder, in the middle ages.

To return to the topic, I still don't understand the sentence about tending to their flock.

A broader issue: I thought the division into farming types such as wheat farmer and pig farmer was much more modern. I would have expected a medieval farmer to cultivate some land and own some poultry, sheep and pigs, depending on his resources and his access to arable land, grazing land and forests where his pigs could forage. I'm not sure about this, however, so consult the experts.
 
Last edited:
You see why I need chrons so much? :D

I've just spent another two days on the tiniest points of research (I wonder how long before I just get fed up ;) ) and had the good luck to come across a medieval farm simulator, so i am going to familiarise myself with that and see what comes up.

Yes, I think "tank" works just fine. Sorry, I thought you were looking for a different word and using that as a placeholder.

Oh, I was, but if someone knew the right term I was going to try it out.

"Shambling mob" made me think of zombies (definitely not a hook for me) and drew a picture at odds with other descriptions of lepers that I've read. "Mob" is also contradicted later, by "procession".

"Cream rags" distracted me twice: firstly, because "cream" implies (at least to me) dyed cloth, and I wonder whether lepers would be able to afford dyed cloth; secondly, because "calico jumble of red and brown smudges" painted a different picture. I realised after a moment that red and brown referred to the stains from their sores, but the two descriptions gave different impressions of the predominant colour of the cloth. Incidentally, I don't think calico reached Europe until much later.

Henry's passive role doesn't worry me, but I wonder if you could make him more sinister if you didn't show his revulsion but showed him instead, standing very still with the lepers glancing nervously at him. Alternatively, you could show him standing his ground on the path, forcing the lepers to loop around him through the mud.

Thanks, I was using calico as a colour reference as opposed to the actual fabric but it's a moot point really as it didn't get to Europe till 1500s. It will be cut when I redraft this minus the overblown clothing descriptions. I'm no fan of zombies either, but that was the intention. Mob is how they appear as they exit the abbey, procession is how they change to move out of the churchyard so I'll have to make this clearer, thanks.

I could make Henry more sinister, but I've got to measure it carefully as I need the reader to sympathise with him earlier and later on in this story thread. Something @Brian Turner said earlier about making him more active has given me an idea here, so I'll see how that pans out.

I did find the last section slightly confusing. In particular, I had to read these sentences twice in context, to be sure that Perke was not sneering at the "they", who were tending their flock. This was compounded by the use of the word "flock", which I associate with animals that flock together. Pigs, in contrast, can be herded together with difficulty and may swarm towards food, but I don't think they ever flock. Possibly I'm prejudiced; my encounters with pigs have been negative at best and, at worst, frightening. As a further digression, I once read that pigs could be tried for murder, in the middle ages.

To return to the topic, I still don't understand the sentence about tending to their flock.

A broader issue: I thought the division into farming types such as wheat farmer and pig farmer was much more modern. I would have expected a medieval farmer to cultivate some land and own some poultry, sheep and pigs, depending on his resources and his access to arable land, grazing land and forests where his pigs could forage. I'm not sure about this, however, so consult the experts.

I'd (Perke) used the word flock as there is strong theme of religion and heresy in the first two story threads; swine are indeed herded but Perke was being snarky. In any case, as you say it's not clear and needs a rejig - two of the other farmers were not at the meeting under the oak and it's causing Henry concern over trusting them - as there would be 3 pig farmers there would be an imbalance of interest towards them, or at least a bias (3 out of 8).

However, that's also going to have to be reworked as you and @Ray McCarthy have highlighted there were not specialisms in farming in the MA which is an assumption I had made (Perk is apparently an old English surname for Pig farmer!).

I've been thinking about what Brian said about showing the reader the hardships Shielde has regarding his work, and how I had said I didn't want to go into that, but that it was an existing problem. However, on second thoughts, if I do show this, I will make Shielde more sympathetic so I'm going to have to go back and rebuild.

I'm guessing it will be yeeeears before I finish the first draft ;)

pH
 
However, that's also going to have to be reworked as you and @Ray McCarthy have highlighted there were not specialisms in farming in the MA which is an assumption I had made (Perk is apparently an old English surname for Pig farmer!).
pH

Please don't make major changes on the basis of that comment without checking first with someone who really know medieval history.

My knowledge extends only to "x happened in mediaeval times", which might be like making generalisations about 1770s Lancashire, 1960s Cape Canaveral and 21st century Silicon Valley as the "industrial age".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top